dagblog - Comments for "Russia and the Menace of Unreality: How Vladimir Putin is revolutionizing information warfare "

Fourthed.

moat — Thu, 16 Jul 2015 22:20:14 +0000

In reply to Russia and the Menace of Unreality: How Vladimir Putin is revolutionizing information warfare

Fourthed.

Seconded.

PeraclesPlease — Thu, 16 Jul 2015 17:53:46 +0000

In reply to I am pleased to see this fine

Seconded.

I am pleased to see this fine

Oxy Mora — Thu, 16 Jul 2015 16:25:52 +0000

In reply to Russia and the Menace of Unreality: How Vladimir Putin is revolutionizing information warfare

I am pleased to see this fine post, which garnered 15K views, appear unexpectedly in the "hits of the day" section. Posts come and go. But great bloggers and contributors, although in great supply here, on trees do not grow.

I'm just wondering where this author/blogger/fine art appraiser is and to let her know, when she cruises these pages, that her heavily and humorously nuanced comments, and she herself, are sorely missed.

You say it's significant, I

Anonymous PP — Tue, 23 Sep 2014 16:19:19 +0000

In reply to I am surprised in the

You say it's significant, I say it's not. Aside from some street chatter re: shootings at Maidan (which was obviously very popular and not very violent), there's little trace of serious fascist influence, videos of guys with armbands marching aside. C'est tout.

I am surprised in the

Anonymous LULU — Tue, 23 Sep 2014 15:08:11 +0000

In reply to "The U.S. has been actively

I am surprised in the construction of your argument, in the way that you discount the fascist influence in the Ukraine coup government. The fact that fascism in Ukraine isn’t as powerful as it was in the thirties in Germany does not change the nature of fascism. Your method is like if I told an oncologist that an x-ray showing cancer isn’t significant, its just shows one small malignant spot on one lung that would need to get a lot bigger and spread all around before it really hurt anything so don’t start in with scare talk about my smoking. That attitude would not make the malignancy non-cancer.

I was wrong about Radio Free Europe using ‘Special English’ and encouraging learning that language in other countries. It is The Voice of America I was thinking of. They apparently still invest heavily in that program.

Regarding the link about Putin being a bad guy, Yes, I thought it was in reference to our previous back and forth.

“ ... and while I agree they certainly have an agenda [first, I know many in this "propaganda organization" including many in the Ukrainian service who seem truthful enough, and while I agree they certainly have an agenda (they are funded to report anti-communist and anti-totalitarian news) first, I know many in this "propaganda organization" including many in the Ukrainian service who seem truthful enough, and while I agree they certainly have an agenda (they are funded to report anti-communist and anti-totalitarian news), you'd have to clue me in where this piece is "propaganda" ...”. The agenda described in the parenthetical phrase defines it as a propaganda organization. I did describe my view of the propaganda as not being gross lies but simply one-sided news, just as you do.

“1st item: Estonian PM or whatever talks to Ashton - "ignored" but reported in CNN & Reuters - claims by 1 doctor in Kiev that snipers were from Kiev regime - apparently no one else gave this report much credence -even the Estonian who reported it” The Estonian diplomatic response did not deny or cast doubt on the credence of the reports, it merely said, diplomatically, that the intercepted and then leaked phone conversation was not an assessment by the representative of the oppositions involvement in the violence. So the Estonian is reporting that what he heard on the street is that people [who appear in videos which are not part of his hearsay evidence to have been shot in the back while facing the police lines] were shot in the back by the same snipers who were shooting police. As part of their propaganda Russia distorts that as proof and then supporters of the coup government use Russia’s exaggeration as proof that consideration of the possibility of right wing instigators of violence is evidence of adopting idiot conspiracy theories.

[of course if you're going to faint over State supporting a right-wing asshole, then it might be obvious to faint over Russian anti-democratic actions in Crimea against the Tatars, who kinda suffered atrocities from these bastards before - but selective outrage is the key - focus on a few anecdotes and rumors and expand them to the 4th Reich] I aint faintin’ and you are the only one that says calling some in Ukraine Nazis or fascists is tantamount to calling all Ukrainians the same and only you expand the factually correct name calling to making equivalences with the fully formed Third Reich.

"The U.S. has been actively

PeraclesPlease — Tue, 23 Sep 2014 08:16:05 +0000

In reply to Russia and the Menace of Unreality: How Vladimir Putin is revolutionizing information warfare

"The U.S. has been actively working to set the stage for the revolution in Ukraine" - yes, liberals & anti-war protestors set the stage to overthrow Nixon in 1973, and it worked. Regrets? I've none. Was there some big military coup to oust Yanukovych? nope - that "actively working" has been through rather peaceful, democratic means - I'm all for.

" that revolution has many neo-Nazisor or other brands of fascist among its most active and influential supporters" - this strikes me as crass propaganda from Russia and separatists, and there's been little behavior from the new Kiev government that strikes me as "fascist" - unlike the behavior from Putin & separatists. "Deeds & good works, not words alone..." I think the Bible or someone says...

"Countering my arguments..." - no, countering your arguments I countered your arguments - this was just an interesting piece I saw yesterday.

"...you post an interview by an American propaganda organization which is about making Putin out to be a bad guy" - first, I know many in this "propaganda organization" including many in the Ukrainian service who seem truthful enough, and while I agree they certainly have an agenda (they are funded to report anti-communist and anti-totalitarian news), you'd have to clue me in where this piece is "propaganda" rather than fairly true & obvious analysis though admitted speculation to a degree. It's discussing the historical facts of Putin or regime throwing Chodorovsky in jail and stripping him of assets and the current oligarch, with an interesting point that this one wasn't dabbling in politics. I stepped on everyone's toes a while back noting that sleeping with murderous Communists is a very dangerous slippery slope that can cause furious recoil from those who don't want to be yet again under a regime/system that is well capable of murdering millions and putting a nation or region in servitude. Or lower levels of repression, since not everything's recreating the purges of the 20's.

"Their method was the use of a standard English vocabulary restricted to, I believe, 2000 words..." - most of Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty's programs are in native language put together by people from those countries. The BBC cares about language instruction.

Re: your bloody 1 hour video (do I have time for this?) - 1st item: Estonian PM or whatever talks to Ashton - "ignored" but reported in CNN & Reuters - claims by 1 doctor in Kiev that snipers were from Kiev regime - apparently no one else gave this report much credence - even the Estonian who reported it. (Reuters here. Guardian here.). But it's good enough for conspiracists to run with for months. Just like those Kiev jets shooting down the Malaysian airliner.

What other claims - "the most powerful & influential part of the coalition..." -no, these folks are not the most influential, as you can note from Ukraine news & political developments the last 6 months. Amazing revelation - there are Ukrainian nationalists who want their land to be run by Ukrainians!!! (cue the Nazi comparisons). And a few hooligans beat someone up in the street - compare that to the beerhall putsch, Night of the Long Knives and other thuggish behavior from the real Nazis and this is like reading the Peanuts/kindergarten version. Oh noes! Nuland said "Fuck the EU"!!! Must faint, where are my smelling salts.

Really, Lulu - this isn't serious. It's about as serious as the Bill Clinton kill list promoted by Gennifer Flowers - look! People BIll Clinton knew died - he must have killed them!!! Anything can be a conspiracy.

Kiev did not even fight back when Russia annexed Crimea - is that how scary Nazis act? Since 1 single Odessa incident over 4 months ago, I haven't seen a serious incident outside the eastern warzone - is this how Nazis assert their power?

The Brownshirts were the military wing of HItler's organizing, formed as early as 1919 and 15,000 strong by 1923, 4.5 million by 1933 - present at every meeting, beating up the opposition, carrying out numerous murders. There's simply no comparison with whatever's going on in Ukraine with what we associate with early Nazi or worse, later Nazi efforts.

And there's no logical explaining how a fascist movement seeks closer relationship with the EU where judicial norms ban anything close to that brutal, fascist behavior & give specific legal routes to stop it. They can thrive with an independent Ukraine - they can't within the EU. So I'm puzzled what people think they're describing.

Response below

Anonymous PP — Tue, 23 Sep 2014 05:37:47 +0000

In reply to Lets stipulate: Putin is a

Response below

Lets stipulate: Putin is a

A Guy Called LULU — Mon, 22 Sep 2014 22:14:27 +0000

In reply to 1 other interesting piece on

Lets stipulate: Putin is a bad guy. He is not cool. A country would hope to do better that to be dominated by him.

I have been arguing that The U.S. has been actively working to set the stage for the revolution in Ukraine, that that revolution has many neo-Nazisor or other brands of fascist among its most active and influential supporters, and that the U.S. has been working to influence the choice of new leaders in that country, and also putting out propaganda to gain support of the American people in that endeavor and that the MSN has been extremely compliant by spreading that message as well as giving very little coverage to any contradictory news. Countering my arguments you post an interview by an American propaganda organization which is about making Putin out to be a bad guy.
In calling Radio Free Europe a propaganda enterprise I do not intend to say that it uses flagrant lies and distortions in this instance or all the time, I do not know. A very good thing they have done, from my point of view, is to have been very important in establishing the English language as the international language and greatly helping others around the world to learn to speak it. Their method was the use of a standard English vocabulary restricted to, I believe, 2000 words and to speak slowly and clearly at all times as they pointed out only problems with and in other countries and at the same time only good things about America and its actions around the world.
If we are to continue batting links back and forth I suggest this one. It is fairly long so it is able to give many examples of the Nazi imagery you asked for a single example of a while back. Also many video quotes of fascist ideology, Hitler idealization, anti-Semitism, and various other kinds of hate speech from some of the leaders and many of their followers. It is over six months old so I am sure it is not comprehensive. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8-RyOaFwcEw
If anyone is imterested in more from Christia Freeland she represents the center on this weeks audio blog of Left Right and Center. Her 'center' opinion is strongly one-sided in favor of the government in Kiev where she shares ownership of an apartment with her sister. They are of Ukrainian ancestry and in that country which is deeply divided she comes down squarely on one side like you do so you may want to hear her, maybe even quote her. http://www.kcrw.com/news-culture/shows/left-right-center/scotland-isis-a...
Maybe the best thing I have heard recently about how our beliefs are shaped and what the shape of those beliefs has become for so many is the latest episode of On The Media. The first part is about fear and how it is and has been mongered and the second more interesting part is about nihilism, "Confronting the Unknown".

. http://www.onthemedia.org/2014/sep/

1 other interesting piece on

PeraclesPlease — Mon, 22 Sep 2014 12:05:03 +0000

In reply to Does it have to be my last?

1 other interesting piece on arrest of Yevtushenkov

I like the way you and Lulu

moat — Sat, 20 Sep 2014 22:53:06 +0000

In reply to Post as you like - I'm in

I like the way you and Lulu have drawn this out as a debate.

I would have made this a reply to both of you but the software doesn't allow such refinement of expression.