dagblog - Comments for "The Fire This Time"

Given what you have seen of

rmrd0000 — Sat, 29 Nov 2014 16:02:20 +0000

Given what you have seen of the Missouri Governor, the local Mayor, and the Ferguson police chief, what is your solution to effect change in the legal system in Ferguson?

By saying "other means" I

moat — Sat, 29 Nov 2014 14:13:44 +0000

In reply to I think that finding other

By saying "other means" I wasn't commenting on the violence. I neither agree that it was as necessary as you make out nor condemn it as a crime. My intention in following this point up is to try and separate what is lacking in the law as it stands from the other elements that influenced the decision.

I think that finding other

rmrd0000 — Sat, 29 Nov 2014 04:51:39 +0000

In reply to I am not claiming the

I think that finding other options is an easy suggestion from the outside. What stands out to me is that their have been other police shootings of unarmed men followed by protests without violence. In the case of Ferguson with a seemingly incompetent police chief, a prosecutor who acts like a defense attorney, a militarized police force, and a legal system that used court charges against poor people to fill the city's coffers, why would we expect the citizens to behave differently?

Do you really believe that if the citizens had "behaved themselves" and there was no national attention that Ferguson would have changed. The prosecutor rigged the Grand Jury. Darren Wilson told an unbelievable story without facing cross-examination. The Governor was MIA until he brought in the police troops. Exactly where were the citizens supposed to go to get justice?

Whether there was violence during the protests or the protesters were angelic, the idea that the police chief, Mayor, or Governor was going to make a swift response to underlying issues was virtually nil. The Ferguson protests sparked national protests. I guess I see the poor prospects of justice in Ferguson sparking a national debate. The violence in Ferguson was because the citizens were ignored. Being well behaved did not prevent the abuses in the Justice system in the city.

Trayvon Martin was killed and his killer went free. No riots after the trial even though there was concern about how that trial was conducted. To me if there is pathology in the citizens of Ferguson, there is equal pathology in the local government and police force.

I am not claiming the

moat — Sat, 29 Nov 2014 03:40:09 +0000

In reply to What happened regarding the

I am not claiming the Missouri law strengthens any case. I was merely observing that it supported a predisposition to support a police officer in this case. You just demonstrated how good a job applying a State law could further certain interests in a particular judgment even if the program doesn't square with the present markers of constitutional law. The point made made by NCD is that the constitutional law itself has its own problems regarding these situations. I think he is right. The present standards do not satisfy the requirements of equal opportunity to the appeal of law.

Your other questions remind me that the appeal system is about reviewing convictions.There doesn't seem to be any system set up to review botched indictments. The double jeopardy thing.

Apart from this particular decision, there is a history of the Supreme Court stepping in and overturning State laws when they developed into cases that required a decision to be overturned. Whatever one might think of the right or wrong of the decision, our system doesn't seem to be set up to address it as such.

But recognizing the limitation doesn't mean we are without means to address the problem in other ways.

Regarding how we get to

rmrd0000 — Sat, 29 Nov 2014 03:03:57 +0000

In reply to What happened regarding the

Regarding how we get to justice, I think the protests makes it more likely that the Governor of Missouri and Mayor of Ferguson work to change things. It is likely that the state legislature and local city council will have to be dragged by their feet to accept change. We are likely talking years for change to come.

If there were no protests, there would be zero pressure for the Governor or Mayor to act.

What happened regarding the

rmrd0000 — Sat, 29 Nov 2014 02:45:46 +0000

In reply to Your point that the Missouri

What happened regarding the initial instruction to the jury was a travesty. The Supreme Court ruled on what was the law of the land. The initial instruction given to the jury was an Unconstitutional law. Later during deliberations the Constitutional law instruction was given to the Grand Jury. The prosecutor's office originally gave the jury an illegal instruction. So, no the outdated Missouri law does not strengthen any case, it makes the prosecutor's office look at best incompetent or at worse attempting to influence the jury to find in favor of Darren Wilson.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/11/28/1347938/-In-officer-Darren-Wils...

How do you view the jury receiving incorrect instructions regarding self defense claims regarding a police officer firing on a fleeing subject?

Your point that the Missouri

moat — Sat, 29 Nov 2014 01:08:29 +0000

In reply to You can hurl insults and run.

Your point that the Missouri statue is lax compared to the the SCOTUS ruling strengthens NCD's observation that the law as it stands gives a lot of discretion to enforcers of the law. There is nothing in what he said that suggests that he thinks that is a good thing.

I understand that the interchange between you and him involves other arguments than this particular element and I won't try to be the arbiter between them. But your "Edit to add" regarding his willingness to comply with a police state is galling to me. It is an ad hominem device.

Institutional racism obviously has a lot to do with what went down and is going down. Many people can agree that is the case without agreeing to other things. How do we get to the baseline Doc Cleveland is proposing?

Word salad,

rmrd0000 — Thu, 27 Nov 2014 15:23:11 +0000

In reply to One can be a martyr and not

Word salad,

Blacks should have been content with slavery, but it is an outrage for Whites to be enslaved. Hypocrite.

One can be a martyr and not

Resistance — Thu, 27 Nov 2014 15:05:54 +0000

In reply to Consistently inconsistent

One can be a martyr and not be a Christian.

You don't understand that?

Is this how you reason things.

God is Love

Love is blind

Stevie wonder is blind

Rmrd : Stevie wonder must be God?

Consistently inconsistent

rmrd0000 — Thu, 27 Nov 2014 13:34:52 +0000

In reply to That period was the most

Consistently inconsistent

MLK was a Christian in name only, now you consider him a martyr