dagblog - Comments for "Women in STEM + Men in Nursing & Teaching?"

Maybe things are changing and

trkingmomoe — Tue, 16 Dec 2014 22:30:13 +0000

In reply to Women in STEM + Men in Nursing & Teaching?

Maybe things are changing and we haven't caught on yet. My grandson is a English major who wants to teach and his wife is premed. It looks like she will get A's this semester in Chemistry, Physics and Trig. She moved in when she was in high school with the intention of quilting school but it didn't happen that way. There was never any over thinking about roles in society only what is your talent and how to make the most of it. Her falling into premed even surprised me.

I'm just accepting the

Contrarian — Sun, 14 Dec 2014 22:11:49 +0000

In reply to I don't know when we will

I'm just accepting the conclusion of the '09 CONSAD meta-analysis commissioned by the Dept of Labor. AFAIK, it's still the most exhaustive and it said that inherent limitations on the ability to collect all the requisite data make it impossible to prove or disprove the persistence of a discrimination based pay gap.

http://consad.com/index.php?page=an-analysis-of-reasons-for-the-disparit...

Actually, I thought she made

Oxy Mora — Sun, 14 Dec 2014 20:02:55 +0000

In reply to I didn't find Joni's comments

Actually, I thought she made an interesting point. And she's a great artist.

I didn't find Joni's comments

anonymous pp — Sun, 14 Dec 2014 17:51:05 +0000

In reply to I'll stack up Ada Lovelace--

I didn't find Joni's comments so chipful - seemed like she was j st commenting from a long career perspective - better than Steve Miller and Boz Scaggs talk about how great they were.

I'll stack up Ada Lovelace--

Oxy Mora — Sun, 14 Dec 2014 17:04:29 +0000

In reply to It's hard to slice through

I'll stack up Ada Lovelace---the enchantress of numbers---against Joni Mitchell any day.

BTW, Mitchell seems to have a chip about all the blokes. And let's face it, a D sus 2 is a lot simpler to chord, and sustain, than a D major triad.

It's hard to slice through

Anonymous PP — Sun, 14 Dec 2014 16:03:26 +0000

In reply to I think that is probably true

It's hard to slice through this report.

Puberty is often a time of rebellion, and it seems obvious that the "nice girls" would be rejected by the cool girls of whatever category (see "Rock 'n Roll High School" for classic labeling)

It's pretty clear that assertive disruptive behavior from boys gets them thrown out of school, leads them to drugs, et al., and unless they were able to funnel it into sports, they were disliked by much of the administration and teachers.

Did the spice girls act like "real bitches"? because that is part of the vibe. It'd be a shame if they went to all the trouble of putting on an attitude and were instead accepted rather than seen as radical and daring.

Did the teachers foist it on girls to define themselves in terms of boys, or was that their own self-selection? I'd love to know how to counter a variety of what I see as retro attitudes, but if the girls themselves choose or abet these paths, how much re-education before we accept it as a basic right to decide for themselves?

Re: Good & Brophy, I don't see here whether there were differences in how outspoken girls and boys were in class. I liked a comment by Joni Mitchell the other day that expresses some of the differences I'd like to see explored in more delving ways:

Q: Laws you felt needed to be broken. For example, your use of suspended chords in songs—which you say men cannot wrap their heads around. Why?

A: Men need resolution and suspended chords keep things open-ended. You go to a man if you have a problem and he tries to solve it. You go to a girlfriend and she’ll pat you on the back and say, “Oh yeah, I get it.” She doesn’t try and come up with some stupid solution.

There was a nice article on Angela Merkel recently exploring how she used her quietness and intelligence to great effect, letting boisterous self-serving male politicians dig their own graves, listening more than speaking until the time is right. What of these qualities relate to fallacies on what's rewarded and what's not in grade school or high school?

I'm sure there's gender bias, but the dredging up of Ada Lovelace as in a thread above is a kind of feeble solution - hopefully textbooks can focus on the serious admirable women who permeate many fields in modern times, and while the numbers may not be as huge or the breakthroughs & contributions not always at the same level for a number of societal or logistics reasons, 1) games are not always about home runs - some success is about defense, speed, adaptability, holding on - in school and life, not just who gives the best presentation - 2) but we still often admire characters who have one blast with fame - whether writers like Salinger or Kesey who have a rather tiny but important output, or scientists whose contribution is only known for a single success rather than longevity or the much vaunted "Man for All Seasons" of Renaissance days. With women's careers often shortened due to domestic obligations, it's sometimes probably enough to build up an appreciation of ways they play vital roles rather than looking for the alternate history where their greatest achievements were just ignored. (in an age when teamwork and project management is as important as specific field knowledge many times, we still don't celebrate the manager - we look at the hotshot programmer or sales person or ..., ignoring the structure that sustains. That's a topic for another day)

Edit to add:. Actually, a

Oxy Mora — Sun, 14 Dec 2014 15:55:22 +0000

In reply to Thanks, I'll try it. And not

Edit to add:. Actually, a pretty good context for the subject matter at hand. "The Hour" portrays young woman producer in the 50's, Romola Garai, in strong women's role. Whereas "Newsroom" features Emily Blunt in a decidedly stereotyped, or misguided, role as woman exec prone to histrionics. When this year's Newsroom series began with Blunt, now to be married, carrying on relentlessly about her wedding list ( in the office), I switched the show off permanently.

(I'm a streaming junkie).

Sorkin---what could you possibly be thinking about women?

Thanks, I'll try it. And not

Oxy Mora — Sun, 14 Dec 2014 15:25:45 +0000

In reply to Hey Oxy, I've never even

Thanks, I'll try it. And not to go on forever or digress from thread but take a look at "Rake" (Austrailian version of renegade barristers--lot's of great rants), and "The Hour", BBC.(Dominic West now switched to American role in "The Affair",(pretty good show with unusual counterpoint story telling--- also with Ruth Wilson, who was the great " femme fatale"( I guess it is on thread" in "Luther" series.

I don't know when we will

tmccarthy0 — Sun, 14 Dec 2014 14:41:14 +0000

In reply to women from the beginning of

I don't know when we will make our way over that bar either, or if we ever will. But I do know for sure that so far we aren't there.

I think that is probably true

tmccarthy0 — Sun, 14 Dec 2014 14:39:37 +0000

In reply to I learned something new today

I think that is probably true about men and why they don't select careers in Nursing or Teaching. For women I think ti is assumed we just simply aren't good at stuff men do like.. math and there is still disparity in the classroom when it comes to women learning math and science. I think there continues to be gender bias in the classroom and it begins in elementary school. I don't think we've worked through many of these issues and so the double standard begins here and continues on through higher-education.

I believe this to be a significant passage from the link I provided above and holds true:

The Reay study further demonstrates how socialization of girls occurs at the school level by tolerating different behaviors from boys than from girls. Assertive behavior from girls is often seen as disruptive and may be viewed more negatively by adults. In Reay's study, the fact that the spice girls asserted themselves in ways contrary to traditional femininity caused them to be labeled by teachers as "real bitches". (2001) This reinforces the notion that "...girls' misbehavior to be looked upon as a character defect, whilst boys' misbehavior is viewed as a desire to assert themselves." (Reay, 2001)