dagblog - Comments for "Putin's Bite is Worse than His Bark - should we have been surprised?"

Thanks for pointing out the

Resistance — Mon, 02 Mar 2015 03:12:15 +0000

In reply to NCD's comment's relevance to

propaganda might steer the thoughts of Americans in a deliberately chosen direction.

Factual support for your reply

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NCD's comment's relevance to

A Guy Called LULU — Sun, 01 Mar 2015 23:22:54 +0000

In reply to More:

NCD's comment's relevance to the article is zero minus. Whether this type comment is acceptable or should be criticized has been discussed recently and at length in the case of another participant here at Dag. His ad hominem referral to my beliefs is completely wrong. His use of an article about an unproven allegation of murder, though one very possibly true is a clear example, though hardly the worst available, of the most common propagandist tool, the demonization of an entity by spin and innuendo so that they are seen as a dangerous enemy whether that conclusion is justified or not. You then jump in with agreement on this accusation of murder by buying into the conclusion without question and, referring to -Boris Nemstov's killing, saying 'Here is another one'. In this case there is good reason, and I would suggest that there is better reason, to think that Putin and/or the KGB was likely not responsible for this shooting but I would only say that because I have weighed evidence I see at Russia friendly sites [Yeah, there's propaganda there too] that would indicate to me that he has more to lose by having Nemstov killed than by ignoring him. Next you link to four or five NYT articles that all say 'Putin' every third word when discussing possible methods and actors involved in the crime.
Some folks have noticed that the NYT has stenographically put out a lot of one-sided BS in the last few years of war here, then war there, and in the ground-laying for more war somewhere else. They also have been quite cooperative on more than one occasion in holding back information that would have been embarrassing to our governments case for war. One might call this 'propaganda by omission'. And, you give unreflective credence to the idea that Putin controls his citizenry through propaganda while you ridicule the idea that propaganda might steer the thoughts of Americans in a deliberately chosen direction.

artappraiser — Sun, 01 Mar 2015 18:14:28 +0000

In reply to Add Boris Nemtsov to the list

More, all part of the media plot? Poor Putin being piled on?

Fear Envelops Russia After Killing of Putin Critic

always, pugilistic and excited, saying he wanted to publish the research in a pamphlet to be called “Putin and the War,” about President Vladimir V. Putin and Russian involvement in the Ukraine conflict,

March 01, 2015 - By ANDREW E. KRAMER
Tens of Thousands March in Moscow to Honor Putin Critic

on a bridge where Mr. Nemtsov, a former first deputy prime minister who became a prominent critic of President Vladimir V. Putin, was killed. One placard read “Boris, we will continue your work.” Asked about the death of Mr.

March 02, 2015 - By ANDREW E. KRAMER
After Boris Nemtsov’s Assassination, ‘There Are No Longer Any Limits’

journalist, he was always willing to jaw over endless glasses of cognac. And he was a powerful, vigorous critic of Vladimir Putin, assailing him in every possible medium, constantly publishing reports on topics like the

February 28, 2015 - By JULIA IOFFE - Magazine

Widow of Murdered Spy Blames Russian Govt for New Killing

silencing critics of President Vladimir Putin, but offered no proof. She said the Russian government has become particularly aggressive since the Ukraine crisis began. She called Nemtsov's death "absolutely devastating."

March 01, 2015 - By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS

Thousands March in Russia to Mourn Putin Critic Nemtsov

Russia's beleaguered opposition. Russian President Vladimir Putin has marginalized and intimidated his political opponents, jailing some and driving others into exile, since mass anti-Putin protests swept Moscow in

March 01, 2015 - By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS

Russians March in Memory of Murdered Putin Critc

March 01, 2015 - By REUTERS

Death Threats and a Late Night Dinner Before Russia's Nemtsov Was Shot Dead

young, dark-haired girlfriend were finishing dinner. A political reformer who had fallen foul of Russian President Vladimir Putin, Nemtsov had been preoccupied for weeks with details of an opposition march planned for Sunday. Dinner

February 28, 2015 - By REUTERS

Nemtsov Killing Follows Slaying of Other Kremlin Critics

Boris Nemtsov's killing follows the slaying over the past decade of several other high-profile critics of President Vladimir Putin and his policies. Here is a look at some of the best-known cases. ___ ANNA POLITKOVSKAYA Renowned

February 28, 2015 - By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS

Nemtsov Planned to Reveal Russian Links to Ukraine Conflict-Poroshenko

conflict. Poroshenko paid tribute to Nemtsov, who was shot dead late on Friday, and said the fierce critic of President Vladimir Putin had told him a couple of weeks ago that he had proof of Russia's role in the Ukraine crisis and

February 28, 2015 - By REUTERS

Investigation begins in Putin critic's murder, opposition blames authorities

Investigation under way into the murder of Russian opposition politician Boris Nemtsov. And some are blaming President Vladimir Putin's administration. Nathan Frandino reports.

February 28, 2015 - REUTERS

World Leaders Condemn Killing of Russian Opposition Leader Nemtsov

on Saturday from leaders and politicians around the world, who paid tribute to the outspoken critic of President Vladimir Putin and Russia's role in the Ukraine crisis. The Russian opposition leader, 55, was killed near the Kremlin.

February 28, 2015 - By REUTERS

Western Leaders Condemn Nemtsov Killing, Press Kremlin

prime minister, who repeatedly expressed publicly his criticism of government policy. She ... calls on President Vladimir Putin to ensure that the murder is cleared up and the perpetrators brought to justice." __ Merkel's spokesman,

February 28, 2015 - By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS

Investigators Probe Whether Nemtsov Murder Was Meant to Destabilize Russia

destabilize the political situation, Interfax news agency said. It said the committee, which answers to President Vladimir Putin, also saw an attack by radical Islamists as a possibility in the case and that there could be links

February 28, 2015 - By REUTERS

Add Boris Nemtsov to the list

artappraiser — Sun, 01 Mar 2015 17:35:16 +0000

In reply to Death of a Dissident: The

Add Boris Nemtsov to the list.

(Pre-emptive: this will be explained as western media propaganda. Conveniently, "the western media" is part of the "plot" against Putin. Therefore, all investigations of mysterious deaths are simply part of the whole "plot." Who's directing this "plot"? Why, NATO, of course...)

Of course Russia was pushing

PeraclesPlease — Wed, 25 Feb 2015 07:38:01 +0000

In reply to I didn't give the machine

Of course Russia was pushing to keep control both of the Soviet Union and any heavily Russian areas. Even Gorby & Yeltsin.

You also didn't give my population figures much time. Let's try them for Crimea - by 2001, Russians were down to 58% of the population, down from 67% twelve years before. Any guess what the % would be in 2014? a recent poll (2008?) had noted over 70% of Crimeans felt themselves part of Ukraine. Of course in time of turmoil (and heavy propaganda and emotions) those figures can change, but it's also easy to imagine that many people would be more attracted to a future union with Paris and Rome than the regressive Russian state, or simply the status quo of an independent Ukraine, as the poll cited here showed.

While you snidely refer to "time of the Buffalo", the wiping out of Tatars and other minorities in Crimea was only 70 years ago - 1944 - 9 years before Kruschev gave Crimea to Ukraine - apparently to buy greater influence with Ukraine's elites and strengthen the Russian population in Ukraine - similarly the author claims to Russian population strategy in the Baltic states and elsewhere.

I didn't give the machine

A Guy Called LULU — Wed, 25 Feb 2015 02:24:51 +0000

In reply to Interesting piece from Nova

I didn't give the machine translation of that article much time. As luck would have it, Peter Hitchens has another long piece about the Ukraine/Crimea situation at the time of the breakup of the Soviet Union composed mostly of contemporary quotes. It gives an idea of the desired will of the people who were legitimate Crimeans at that time which was long after the Buffalo had been wiped from the plains. Of course it might all be lies. I would be the last to claim it must be true if it is in the paper.

http://hitchensblog.mailonsunday.co.uk/2015/02/a-not-so-brief-history-of-crimea.html

Interesting piece from Nova

PeraclesPlease — Tue, 24 Feb 2015 17:49:17 +0000

In reply to The last one? Klaus has been

Interesting piece from Nova Gazeta last February describing a comprehensive plan to rip away different territory from Ukraine (incl. the PR/marketing lines on how to describe the Kiev opposition and how to play the failed Yukanovych, in the days before he ran). You can use Google translate to get a rough idea.

And an interesting comparison of how elections and democracy have gone in Russia and Ukraine since 1993/1994. Ukraine ain't perfect, but a lot more involvement and ability for the average person to complain and get results.

The last one? Klaus has been

PeraclesPlease — Tue, 24 Feb 2015 06:06:28 +0000

In reply to From the article:

The last one? Klaus has been the Czechs' #1 Euroskeptic, and built his career being the anti-Havel, the pragmatic one who'd go along with the oligarchy controlling the economy and showing a distinctive Eastern tilt (the current president, Zeman, and numerous others remaining in power have similar hold-over ties with the Russians, unrelated to the current Ukrainian crisis). Klaus was recently accused of being the shadow owner of Petr Kellner's (the richest Czech) billions, much held in Lichtenstein banks or corporations and built on amazing deals where a 28-year-old importer of copiers suddenly found the capital to buy 200 companies worth $200 million in Klaus' sweetheart privatization period where much of the country's post-Communist wealth was given away while the average rube ended up with crappy investments in failing businesses. Kellner - and possibly Klaus - walked away with the national insurance company and much of the national bank.. All while Klaus played "see no evil, hear no evil")

They throw in an anecdote of a 20-year-old who didn't know most speak Russian in Ukraine. Well here's my anecdote - I lived next to a cute gay couple in Venice, the younger 20-year-old of the pair didn't realize that pork came from pigs until I told him - the tears welling in his eyes almost broke his heart - I guess his wealthy Michigan suburban upbringing hadn't prepared him for this. Should I draw large assumptions about America based on 1 American's ignorance?

What the idiot or deceitful bastard writing this piece ignores is that while Crimea may be largely Russian - thanks to brutal ethnic cleansing and a huge influx of oil-sated nouveau Russky riche - Ukraine is heavily Ukrainian, not Russian, and even the areas that are more Russian are still Ukrainian dominated, despite the bald deceptive statements presuming to be statistics-based. From the Wikipedia:

- from the 1989 census to 2001, Ukraine went from 72.7% to 77.5% Ukrainian - the Russian population lost 3 million through death/birthrate and exodus (11.4m to 8.3m)

- 14m of Ukraine's 37m people are Russian speaking - 38% or a tad under 2/5. Of those, 5.5m are ethnic Ukrainian (39% of the Russian speakers). Even in Donbas, the rural areas are much more ethnic Ukrainian and much more likely to speak Ukrainian.

- while the 2 eastern Donbas regions were always paraded as the the heart of Ukraine's economy during the Yanukovych and Kuchma years, the reality was that manufacturing sector like everything Soviet was badly delapidated, and the sector steadily lost people (down over 7%) and economic relevance except as propped up inefficient state-controlled and subsidized industries, but still heavily tilted and specialized towards the neighboring Russian economy.

- Donbas was primarily built up around its coal reserves - a prime mover in industrial economies, a steady dead-end for post-industrial service economies. Donbas was largely depopulated during the Russian-caused famines in the 30's, so repopulated by Stalin with Russians to work the coal mines, thus the increased presence of ethnic Russians. ( not leftover Cossacks as frequently believed)

- "Donbas coal (by which is denoted here the Donetsk and Luhansk, but not the Russian Rostov part of the coalfield) fueled thermal power stations that accounted for up to 75% of Ukrainian electricity production. By 2011, however, that proportion had declined to one-third" - read more about the waning influence of Donbas' economic and effectiveness here and of course elsewhere.

- Crimea's population held a bit more steady, partially due to the return of Tatar populations after 1989/1991. Undoubtedly many of this mistreated minority will leave again, now being subject once again to the Russian state that exterminated and exiled them before. La plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose

Could go on more, but that's enough for now

Death of a Dissident: The

NCD — Tue, 24 Feb 2015 00:24:59 +0000

In reply to Putin's Bite is Worse than His Bark - should we have been surprised?

Death of a Dissident: The Poisoning of Alexander Litvinenko and the Return of the KGB:

The assassination of former Russian intelligence officer Alexander "Sasha" Litvinenko in November 2006 -- poisoned by the rare radioactive element polonium -- caused an international sensation. Within a few short weeks, the fit forty-three-year-old lay gaunt, bald, and dying in a (London) hospital, the victim of a "tiny nuclear bomb." Suspicions swirled around Russia's FSB, the successor to the KGB, and the Putin regime.

I suppose you think NATO and the US, not Putin's thugs, poisoned dissident Mr. Litvinenko, and the fact that the motive and the means all point to Putin is hysteria, US propaganda besmirching the upstanding, noble and virtuous record of Vladimir Putin?

From the article:

A Guy Called LULU — Mon, 23 Feb 2015 17:18:17 +0000

In reply to Putin's Bite is Worse than His Bark - should we have been surprised?

From the article:

"But it also has a pleasingly sober willingness to examine things that are generally ignored in the ‘Putin is Hitler’ hysteria which has engulfed so much of politics and the media.

In his evidence, Mr Klaus said some very interesting things (it is easily found by clicking on the red numbers opposite his name in the list of witnesses)

For example , after opening by saying : ‘I am also no a prioristic advocate or defender of Russia or Mr Putin due to our communist experience. I am the last one to be motivated to speak positively about that country. However, our life with communism taught us something. Since then, I have always tried to oppose lies and manipulative propaganda, which I see in this case just now. "