dagblog - Comments for "Greece nears euro exit as bailout talks break up without agreement"

I think I've discovered some

ocean-kat — Sun, 12 Jul 2015 23:03:59 +0000

In reply to Greece nears euro exit as bailout talks break up without agreement

I think I've discovered some video of the fight between Greece and Germany

Greece given 72 hours to

Oxy Mora — Sun, 12 Jul 2015 19:06:31 +0000

In reply to UK Telegraph:

Greece given 72 hours to legalize reforms.

That's some really fine print

Oxy Mora — Sun, 12 Jul 2015 18:45:20 +0000

In reply to UK Telegraph:

That's some really fine print there, NCD.

I went looking for an analysis of the referendum vote (the common view is that young folks swung it) because I had a hunch that the landed gentry had decided to back Tsipras. Theory being the old grey mare wasn't what she used to be. Why not get a new one and ride it---under the assumption that it also loved oats and would do as instructed.

Now I understand that there is a four page memo circulating and a meeting scheduled.

Excellent comments and link,

Peter — Sun, 12 Jul 2015 18:11:11 +0000

In reply to I think the former Finance

Excellent comments and link, Momoe and recent German statements confirm that forced bankruptcy, Grexit was the plan for Greece for quite some time and the so called 'negotiations' were a farce.

One thing that i think obscures the real powers behind this crisis is the narrow focus of attention on personalities as the driving forces behind the German and other European's attacks on Greece. Shaeuble, Junker and Merkel represent a much more powerful financial elite that has the most to lose or gain from this crisis and the vile rhetoric spewing from their mouthpieces is evidence of their fears and agendas.

Anything vaguely resembling Communism/Socialism or even just human compassion is the only remaining threat to the final stage of Capitalist accumulation, also known as the Vampire Squid, and it must be crushed with technocratic efficiency and authoritarian ruthlessness or it may spread.

The one thing that Syriza has accomplished in the last six months is to create a venue for other voiced in Europe to be heard, however weak they may be, and some of these voices are being reported which was rare before Syriza was elected.

This resistance probably won't be enough to stop the planned destruction of Greece because the elite representatives of the EU don't represent their people but follow their true masters dictates.

This crisis and especially the uncompromising rhetoric ot the last six months has shown people everywhere that true Democracy will not be tolerated, just as the Egyptians were shown in a much cruder way, and the institutions of power may be unavailable to anyone but the powerful elites who are bent on their dominating agendas.

UK Telegraph:

NCD — Sun, 12 Jul 2015 16:32:27 +0000

In reply to Oh come on - the article says

UK Telegraph:

The governments of PaSoK and New Democracy largely balanced the books, but refused to destroy the privileges of the special interests that kept them in power. The government of Syriza also resists reform, ostensibly because of hostility to “capitalism”, but in reality because most special interests have switched their allegiance to Syriza as the real anti-reform party and the vehicle of a new cronyism. Hence, Syriza has done nothing to regulate the media oligarchs, open up the economy, or introduce meritocracy in the civil service...The deeper foundation on which populists and demagogues thrive is lack of trust in common institutions. As long as the Greek political system does not restore this trust, real reform will prove highly elusive.

NYT:

...“The breach of trust is so deep it is not possible to reach a deal,” Mr. Kazimir said, referring to the finance officials.

A nine-hour meeting of eurozone finance ministers on Saturday broke off as Germany, Finland and Eastern Europe members expressed doubts that Greece could be trusted to live up to any commitments made in exchange for bailout assistance that might reach 74 billion euros, or nearly $82.6 billion.

NYT:

Mr. Tsipras told Mr. Lew that for there to be a deal, all sides must want it, and Greece has shown it wants it.

They want it, they need it, they have to have it. Not a 3 year old, the Prime Minister.

There is a good update from

Oxy Mora — Sun, 12 Jul 2015 12:57:36 +0000

In reply to Oh come on - the article says

There is a good update from the website ZeroHedge to which someone might want to post a link. The Greek situation is distilling down to a trust issue---the Northerners now requiring reforms made before consideration of bailout. Taxes, pensions and new?---reform of the statistical agency. Meanwhile they need 1 B euros a day to keep the banks open. The Sunday summit canceled.

Oh come on - the article says

PeraclesPlease — Sun, 12 Jul 2015 12:21:24 +0000

In reply to The poling showed the yes

Oh come on - the article says the bankers helped game the system, but it was Wall Street & a US bank, Goldman Sachs, that rigged that system - not a German or European bank. Maybe Germany or Burssels naïve for not thinking Greece would use the Americans to cheat - that hardly makes them complicit.

Slovakia joined the Euro in 2009, while its Euroskeptic brother the Czech Republic stayed out. What's the message for Slovaikia - that it can receive 100 billion Euros or more in bailouts by keeping a second set of books, paying out unaffordable pensions and other financial malfeasance? Some people seem to be saying that Germany and others have the money, so why not spend it. But it's a question whether Germany has an extra 100 or 200 billion Euros for every struggling Euro member. And of course if we as Americans have such great advice for a system hoodwinked by one of our swindler banks (who we gave free credit to make billions in 208/9), why don't we just bail out Greece ourselves instead of being German-scolds? Sure, we have the money, right? Most prosperous nation on earth.

For me I think the biggest issue is trust - the questioning whether there will be a 4th or 6th or 19th bailout, each time with "well, why not, it's not our fault - it was the Troika or the preceding administration or the Nazis in 1942 or ..."

The poling showed the yes

trkingmomoe — Sun, 12 Jul 2015 10:06:25 +0000

In reply to Tsipras rallied the populous

The poling showed the yes ahead until Lagarde released the report showing austerity caused the depression. Then the day of the vote the polling showed a toss up. Tsipras would have resigned with a yes vote.

The ECB right after the left leaning government was in place in January chose to slow the flow of liquidity to the Greece Banks. Greece had not defaulted yet. It was done to put pressure on the new government because it had just replaced a right leaning one that was more agreeable with ECB and to force a show down early. It quickly depleted the Greece economy of liquidity. They wanted to force Greek people to replace the new government. You do what I want or I will hurt you is blackmail.

You might want to read this. It does covers a lot of what has gone on. It even has some charts.

http://www.interfluidity.com/v2/5965.html

It ends with this.

The fact of the matter is no country, not Germany, not France, would voluntarily put up with the sort of “adjustment” that has been forced on Greece, for the good reason that gratuitous great depressions are not actually helpful to an economy. Creditors have had five years to mismanage Greece and they’ve done a startlingly effective job. Syriza has had five months to object. However much you may dislike their negotiating style, however little you think of their competence, Greece’s catastrophe was not Syriza’s work. If creditors respond to Syriza’s “intransigence” with maneuvers that cause yet more devastation, that will be on the creditors. Blaming victims for having insufficiently perfect leaders is standard fare for apologists of predation. Unfortunately, understanding this may be of little comfort to the disemboweled prey.

Europe’s creditors are behaving exactly as one might naively predict private creditors would behave, seeking to get as much blood from the stone as quickly as possible, indifferent to the cost in longer-term growth. And that, in fact, is a puzzle! Greece’s creditors are not nervous lenders panicked over their own financial situation, but public sector institutions representing primarily governments that are in no financial distress at all. They really shouldn’t be behaving like this.

I think the explanation is quite simple, though. Having recast a crisis caused by a combustible mix of regulatory failure and elite venality into a morality play about profligate Greeks who must be punished, Eurocrats are now engaged in what might be described as “loan-shark theater”. They are putting on a show for the electorates they inflamed in order to preserve their own prestige. The show must go on.

The Greek people are smart and they understand what has happened. They are not going to go back to an agreeable right leaning government to please the Troika.

Tsipras rallied the populous

barefooted — Sun, 12 Jul 2015 08:14:08 +0000

In reply to First off the No vote was a

Tsipras rallied the populous for a no vote, and they answered. There is no doubt that you are more knowledgeable than I on this subject, but I've read little of substance claiming the outcome was a surprise in the end.

I agree that their vote expressed a breaking point and solidarity with their government's hard and fast position, but it's the fact that that same government seems to have disregarded that expression that puzzles me. At least if honesty was ever in play.

Blackmail is a loaded word that's easily twisted. Cash under a mattress is an average man's leverage against political manipulation of collective wealth. As long as the mattress is his, he has control.

First off the No vote was a

trkingmomoe — Sun, 12 Jul 2015 07:30:49 +0000

In reply to So here's a really simplistic

First off the No vote was a surprise. It was expected to be a yes because the people wants to stay in the Euro. It did send a message to the Eurogroup that Greek people was reaching their breaking point. It also told the creditors that the Greek people was behind their government. This was the first referendum vote in 41 years.

Second the Greeks know they are being blackmailed and singled out for abuse. They know who is behind this abuse. Some have their money stuffed in mattresses because there was some bank closing in the last round of bail outs and people lost their savings. That money went to the creditors.

Will they replace their government because of this, I don't see them making too many changes at this point. Everything has to play out legally.