dagblog - Comments for "The Anger of the West"

Herod

Flavius — Sat, 21 Nov 2015 13:45:11 +0000

Herod

The Massacre of the Innocents.

Civilization must be saved even if this means sending for the military ,as I suppose it does. How dreary Why is it that in the end civilization always has to call in these professional tidiers to whom it is all one whether it be Pythagoras or a homicidal lunatic they are instructed to exterminate..

Auden

"For the Time Being"

I agree with you.

Michael Maiello — Sat, 21 Nov 2015 05:04:47 +0000

In reply to Americans don't want a ground

I agree with you.

High altitude wars, cruise missile wars, drone wars -- they all imply the same problem of one force being able to wage war without the fear of retribution. The notion of this has been around since the longbow gave an advantage over the swordsman (I realize that sounds glib, coming from a blogger who has never fought in a war and likely never will) but technology has really given us the ability to wage war without the fear of physical repercussion and that is a huge issue.

I'm definitely afraid that the ability to strike without reciprocal consequence makes it more likely that we'll strike. I'd also note that no advantage lasts forever and that it's never a good idea, in the long run, to set bad precedents.

I think we need to dissuade our fellow citizens from the idea that there is such a thing as waging war without taking risk.

Air or ground it won't bring

NCD — Sat, 21 Nov 2015 04:46:44 +0000

In reply to Americans don't want a ground

Air or ground, western forces or troops won't bring a lasting peace. The region needs an unlikely end to the Saudi religious-industrial complex, see link above. GWB's Iraq war was the mother of ISIS, the Wahabbi ideology the father.

Fair enough. It is not

moat — Sat, 21 Nov 2015 00:48:36 +0000

In reply to Americans don't want a ground

Fair enough. It is not morally superior.

Americans don't want a ground

Aaron Carine — Fri, 20 Nov 2015 23:57:45 +0000

In reply to The Anger of the West

Americans don't want a ground war, but they seem to be okay with an air war. I don't see that the latter is morally superior to the former, although it means that none of the dead are American.

The unspoken heart of the

NCD — Fri, 20 Nov 2015 16:52:20 +0000

In reply to The Anger of the West

The unspoken heart of the problem, and inaccurately directed anger, NYT, from a French paper op-ed, the 'Saudi Religious -Industrial Complex', Saudi Arabia, an ISIS That Has Made It:

Black Daesh, white Daesh. The former slits throats, kills, stones, cuts off hands, destroys humanity’s common heritage and despises archaeology, women and non-Muslims. The latter is better dressed and neater but does the same things. The Islamic State; Saudi Arabia. In its struggle against terrorism, the West wages war on one, but shakes hands with the other....Daesh has a mother: the invasion of Iraq. But it also has a father: Saudi Arabia and its religious-industrial complex. Until that point is understood, battles may be won, but the war will be lost. Jihadists will be killed, only to be reborn again in future generations and raised on the same books....

From Wikipedia on 'White Daesh', Saudi Arabia:

Saudi Arabia allows Christians to enter the country as foreign workers for temporary work, but does not allow them to practice their faith openly. Because of that Christians generally only worship within private homes.[3] Items and articles belonging to religions other than Islam are prohibited.[3] These include Bibles, crucifixes, statues, carvings, items with religious symbols, and others.

Cohen couldn't be more wrong.

HSG — Thu, 19 Nov 2015 20:05:50 +0000

In reply to The Anger of the West

Cohen couldn't be more wrong. His column reprises the neo-con theme W made explicit in the wake of 9/11 that terrorists attack the west because "they hate our freedoms". Of course Bush's explanation served the interests of the military-industrial complex since it mandates a long, bloody, expensive perhaps endless war. People motivated by hatred of freedom can never be won over by foreign aid and the successful promotion of democratic institutions in the way Germany and Japan were after WWII. So there's no reason to attempt peaceful solutions.

Cohen is doing exactly what Talleyrand warned against, as (blatant self-promotion warning alert) set forth in my post yesterday, he is reacting with far too much zeal and no calculation at all.

In fact ISIS/ISIL has explained its murderous assaults in Paris.

Let France and all nations following its path know that they will continue to be at the top of the target list for the Islamic State and that the scent of death will not leave their nostrils as long as they partake in the crusader campaign, as long as they dare to curse our Prophet (blessings and peace be upon him), and as long as they boast about their war against Islam in France and their strikes against Muslims in the lands of the Caliphate with their jets, which were of no avail to them in the filthy streets and alleys of Paris.

Simply put, ISIS/ISIL wants France out of the Middle East and they want the French to stop what the terrorists call their "war against Islam in France". Presumably, this means overt discrimination against Muslims which is "rife in France" according to the International Human Rights Campaign.

So what should France do? Well certainly it should do more to incorporate fully first and second-generation Muslim immigrants into French society and repeal laws that are targeted specifically against Muslims - sumptuary laws, etc. Regarding its bombing campaign in Syria, Juan Cole suggests that the Paris attacks may have been planned before France started flying sorties against ISIS/ISIL in east Syria. Still, the French must decide whether continued air strikes are worth an increased risk of more terror.

Roger Cohen is employing the

moat — Thu, 19 Nov 2015 19:35:47 +0000

In reply to The Anger of the West

Roger Cohen is employing the straw-man move he attributes to Obama. Cohen is incorrect when he says,
"Its subtext: Because you can’t solve all the problems of the world, solve none. ISIS in Syria and Iraq is the core of the terrorist threat to Europe and America today. So destroy it."
Fifteen years of playing whack-a-mole hitting the terrorist du jour has taught our country that the core of the threat is not at these battlegrounds we have been sending troops. That lesson is what Obama was referring to when he said, " “What happens when there’s a terrorist attack generated from Yemen?” That lesson is also why Obama wasn't on board when Hollande proposed wiping out Assad earlier.

That isn't to say that there isn't room for more leadership from Obama and his administration to confront the more fundamental causes. But the piper Cohen is calling for would not be an example of it. Maybe he should contact Rubio who is ready to go now.

Another deficit in Cohen's situational awareness is that the EU and France by itself are not helpless in terms of taking a lead on the issue. Hollande is pushing for a coalition in a place full of coalition fatigue. It is going to take more than poodles and G.I. Joe dolls to prepare for the next move. To read Cohen's account, one could believe Khrushchev was still around to talk turkey about Turkey while Europe concentrated on making croissants and beer.

Majority in this country is

trkingmomoe — Thu, 19 Nov 2015 17:04:07 +0000

In reply to The Anger of the West

Majority in this country is tired of supporting war.

Mike, I think you got your Cohens mixed up. Richard is a neocon writer for WaPo. Roger writes for NYTimes.

It don't matter I don't like either one of them all that much but it might matter to some one else.