dagblog - Comments for "Paul Krugman is wrong: Why his case against Bernie Sanders misses the point"

Oh ... I have a better than

oldenGoldenDecoy — Thu, 25 Feb 2016 21:36:44 +0000

In reply to Ducky,

Oh ... I have a better than average understanding...

Thanks for responding... I know the complete history of the growth of a national health care program from Teddy Roosevelt, through FDR, Truman, JFK, LBJ, Nixon, Reagan, Clinton, and to the current era.

I have been a vocal proponent of single-payer for all beginning in the mid 1960s. And the following is what I support and hope to see implemented in the future if I live to see it. I simply do NOT wish to see it kicked around like a political football in the middle of a presidential election season:

H.R.676 - Expanded & Improved Medicare For All Act 114th Congress (2015-2016) Complete Text

And now... To Kenneth Thorpe. Instead of me blithely pissing on a man's background, I'll simply allow their complete and entire record to speak for them. Thorpe is the type of knowledgeable individual we wish to have on our side.

Kenneth E. Thorpe, Ph.D., is the Robert W. Woodruff Professor and Chair of the Department of Health Policy & Management, in the Rollins School of Public Health of Emory University, Atlanta, Georgia. He was the Vanselow Professor of Health Policy and Director, Institute for Health Services Research at Tulane University. He was previously Professor of Health Policy and Administration at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill; an Associate Professor and Director of the Program on Health Care Financing and Insurance at the Harvard University School of Public Health and Assistant Professor of Public Policy and Public Health at Columbia University. Dr. Thorpe has also held Visiting Faculty positions at Pepperdine University and Duke University. Dr. Thorpe was Deputy Assistant Secretary for Health Policy in the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services from 1993 to 1995. In this capacity, he coordinated all financial estimates and program impacts of President Clinton’s health care reform proposals for the White House. He also directed the administration’s estimation efforts in dealing with Congressional health care reform proposals during the 103rd and 104th sessions of Congress.

As an academic, he has testified before several committees in the U.S. Senate and House on health care reform and insurance issues. In 1991, Dr. Thorpe was awarded the Young Investigator Award presented to the most promising health services researcher in the country under age 40 by the Association for Health Services Research. He also received the Hettleman Award for academic and scholarly research at the University of North Carolina and was provided an “Up and Comers” award by Modern Healthcare. Dr. Thorpe was awarded the annual Excellence in Patient Care prize from the National Association of Chain Drug Stores in 2014. He also received the 2012 Champions for Healthy Living Award presented by the YMCA of the USA.

Dr. Thorpe has authored and co-authored over 120 articles, book chapters and books and is a frequent national presenter on issues of health care financing, insurance and health care reform at health care conferences, television and the media. He has worked with several groups (including the American College of Physicians, American Hospital Association, NationalCoalition on Health Care, Blue Cross and Blue Shield Association, Service Employees International Union, AHIP and the United Hospital Fund) and policymakers (including Senators Wellstone, Corzine, Bingaman, Snowe, Feinstein, Cassidy, Carper, Clinton, Obama and Kennedy) to develop and evaluate alternative approaches for providing health insurance to the uninsured. He serves as areviewer on several health care journals.

Dr. Thorpe is chairman, Partnership to Fight Chronic Disease, an international coalition of over 80 groups focused on highlighting the key role that chronic disease plays in the growth in healthcare spending, and the high rates of morbidity and mortality. PFCD focuses as well on identifying best practice prevention and care coordination strategies and scaling them countrywide. He also serves as co-chair of the Partnership for the Future of Medicare, a non-partisan organization focused on identifying long-term reforms that would make the program more efficient and improve the quality of care provided to beneficiaries.
Contact Information

Rollins School of Public Health

Atlanta, GA 30322

Phone: (404) 727-3373

Fax: (404) 727-9198

Email: kthorpe@emory.edu

URL: http://www.fightchronicdisease.org/blog/ken-thorpe

Areas of Interests

    Health Economics
    Health Policy
    Chronic Diseases

Education

    BA, 1978, University of Michigan
    MA, 1980, Duke University
    PhD, 1985, Rand Graduate Institute

Courses Taught

    HPM 799R: Dissertation Research

Publications

    Kenneth E Thorpe, Ph.D., 2016, An Analysis of Senator Sanders Single Payer Plan, ,
    Auchmutey, P., 2012, Beyond Health Reform, Public Health Magazine, ,
    Ken Thorpe, 2010, A Weighty Matter, ,
    Kenneth Thorpe, 2007, Shaping the world's policies, ,
    Ken Thorpe, 2007, Making chronic disease a priority, ,
    Thorpe, K.E., 2004, The Medical Malpractice Crisis: Recent Trends and the Impact of State Tort Reforms, Health Affairs, ,
    Thorpe, K.E., and Howard, D., 2003, Health Insurance and Health Care Spending Among Cancer Patients, Health Affairs, ,
    Thorpe, K.E., and Atherly, A., 2002, Medicare+Choice Program: It's Current Role and Near Term Prospects, Health Affairs,, ,
    Thorpe, K.E. , 1999, Health Insurance Among Children: The Role of Expanded Medicaid, Inquiry, Winter,
    Thorpe, K.E., 1999, Market Incentives, Plan Choice and Price Increases, Health Affairs, 18(6), 194-202

That is all...

~OGD~

Ducky,

trkingmomoe — Thu, 25 Feb 2016 17:19:57 +0000

In reply to Here's someone . . .

Ducky,

He is a Health Care Administrator expert from the Clinton administration from 1993-95. He is not an economist. He was part of the design team for the failed health care program during the early years of President Clinton. Like the authors in the blog pointed out, that I sited, the mountain of authority they are standing on is not as large as it used to be.

I figure we can afford it any way. We blew up the Middle East and Bailed the world banking industry out to the tune of zillions of dollars. There is something wrong with a country that considers gun ownership a right but health care is a privilege. This is a moral issue when it comes to taking huge profits off of the sick. Canada did it and so can we.

It is time we see ourselves more then just tax payers but part of the bigger common good.

Here's someone . . .

oldenGoldenDecoy — Wed, 24 Feb 2016 09:29:47 +0000

In reply to There is quite a fire storm

Here's someone . . .

Kenneth Thorpe has put forth hard numbers, although they strictly deal with single-payer...

Who is Kenneth E. Thorpe?

FEB. 15, 2016 - NYTimes

Left-Leaning Economists Question Cost of Bernie Sanders’s Plans

WASHINGTON — With his expansive plans to increase the size and role of government, Senator Bernie Sanders has provoked a debate not only with his Democratic rival for president, Hillary Clinton, but also with liberal-leaning economists who share his goals but question his numbers and political realism.

The reviews of some of these economists, especially on Mr. Sanders’s health care plans, suggest that Mrs. Clinton could have been too conservative in their debate last week when she said his agenda in total would increase the size of the federal government by 40 percent. That level would surpass any government expansion since the buildup in World War II.

The increase could exceed 50 percent, some experts suggest, based on an analysis by a respected health economist that Mr. Sanders’s single-payer health plan could cost twice what the senator, who represents Vermont, asserts, and on critics’ belief that his economic assumptions are overly optimistic.

His campaign strongly contests both critiques, defending its numbers and attacking prominent critics as Clinton sympathizers and industry consultants.

---snip---

Adding $20 trillion to projected federal spending would mean about a 37 percent increase in spending through the 2026 fiscal year — close to the 40 percent that Mrs. Clinton suggested. But Kenneth E. Thorpe, a prominent health policy economist at Emory University who advised the Clintons in the 1990s, recently concluded that Mr. Sanders’s health plan would cost $27 trillion, not $14 trillion, which would put total spending for all of his initiatives above $30 trillion through 2026.

Mr. Thorpe and Sanders aides and allies have been battling online. Their trillion-dollar disputes involve the amount of savings that would be achieved by reducing red tape and bargaining for lower-cost brand-name drugs, and whether states would pay what they currently do toward programs that would cease in a single-payer system.

Mr. Thorpe in recent years helped Gov. Peter Shumlin in Mr. Sanders’s home state of Vermont design a single-payer plan there. It was unsuccessful.

“The problem was that the price tag and the amount of disruption and redistribution was just so enormous,” Mr. Thorpe said of Mr. Shumlin’s efforts, “that he just had to drop it.” Article Continues Here

The complete seven (7) page Thorpe analysis-->Here @ Scribd

Oh and... Before anyone attempts to try and direct me to the HuffPo piece by Himmelstein and Woolhandler, save it until they show their hard numbers and science to back up their political rhetoric.

~OGD~

Thanks JR, It really isn't

trkingmomoe — Sat, 20 Feb 2016 22:52:28 +0000

In reply to Lemme help you out.

Thanks JR, It really isn't that hard to understand.

Dr. Galbraith's letter is really spot on. He didn't mince words. He really schooled them on the fact they are economists, so behave like one, and stop with the political spin with out empirical evidence to back it up.

In other words, stick with the science and quit blowing smoke out of your butts. Mic drop.

Lemme help you out.

jollyroger — Sat, 20 Feb 2016 21:55:49 +0000

In reply to 2 links re: objections to

Lemme help you out.

Step one: print money, give it to people.

Step two, people buy stuff, the wheels of commerce whir at supersonic speed

Step three, money begins to lose relative value, omigod!, INFLATION.

Step four (the crucial and "controversial" part) raise taxes ( oh noes!!), soak up money, restore its value, send it back out to people ( who spend it rather than hoard it).

Of course, this is redistribution on steroids, but oddly enough, it's the rising tide raising all boats of which you may have heard.

2 links re: objections to

PeraclesPlease — Sat, 20 Feb 2016 21:03:12 +0000

In reply to Mike, You asked me about

2 links re: objections to Modern Monetary Theory - I get a sense of String Theory with all that printed money to burn, but maybe I'm just feeling snide:

http://jessescrossroadscafe.blogspot.cz/2015/01/the-great-fallacy-that-is-at-heart-of.html

http://jessescrossroadscafe.blogspot.cz/2015/01/a-further-response-on-weakness-in.html

Mike, You asked me about

trkingmomoe — Sat, 20 Feb 2016 09:12:42 +0000

In reply to There is quite a fire storm

Mike, You asked me about Krugman a few weeks ago and I told you he wasn't quite there yet. I hope this clears up some of your questions you have about his support for baby steps.

There is quite a fire storm

trkingmomoe — Sat, 20 Feb 2016 09:00:52 +0000

In reply to Paul Krugman is wrong: Why his case against Bernie Sanders misses the point

There is quite a fire storm going on in the different schools of economic thought the last few days over Sanders' proposals. Some real heavy weights in the field of economics has called to task the critics of Sanders's programs.

You have two dominate groups of thought on the left. Krugman is a New Keynesian Economist. In macroeconomics it is the marriage of Keynes and M. Friedman. The other group is Post Keynesian which has branched out to Modern Monetary Theory(MMT). MMT brings Keynesian economics into the 21th century updating the models based on the gold standard to the fiat monetary system we now have. This did not happen with our Monetary Policies after we switch from gold standard to fiat in 1970 but continued to use models designed for the gold standard. So our Monetary Policy Model has been flying by the seat of it's pants tweaked here and there with out dated gold standard rules.

In the late 1990's Dr. Stephanie Kelton published her work predicting the 2008 economic crash. She is one of the top experts in MMT economic thought. Let just say it was laughed at and ignored as magical thinking. The economy played out just as her models and numbers predicted. So the only ones that saw this coming was MMT Post Keynesian Economist.

Professor Gerald Friedmen of the University of Massachusetts using standard economic models crunched the numbers of Sanders' proposals that he is offering. His analysis showed that is was a very viable program and would create about 5% economical growth for 3 years in his published paper. Now remember Sanders' big ideas are suppose to be unicorns and fairy dust. I don't have a link on his paper but I am sure it reads like an a economical analysis with charts, formulas and everything that makes the rest of us wonder what all that means.

Then a letter from four economist that had worked for past Presidents wrote and open letter that came over my Wordpress feed to the Sanders' campaign and Prof. Friedman.

https://lettertosanders.wordpress.com/2016/02/17/open-letter-to-senator-sanders-and-professor-gerald-friedman-from-past-cea-chairs/

We are concerned to see the Sanders campaign citing extreme claims by Gerald Friedman about the effect of Senator Sanders’s economic plan—claims that cannot be supported by the economic evidence. Friedman asserts that your plan will have huge beneficial impacts on growth rates, income and employment that exceed even the most grandiose predictions by Republicans about the impact of their tax cut proposals.

You need to read the letter so you will see who they were and how much they are involved in politics.

This came to the attention of Dr. Jamie Galbraith. He is the top expert in Post Keynesian Economics. He wrote them back a letter saying where is your counter argument of proof. Let see your analysis.

http://big.assets.huffingtonpost.com/ResponsetoCEA.pdf

You write that you have applied rigor to your analyses of economic proposals by Democrats and Republicans. On reading this sentence I looked to the bottom of the page, to find a reference or link to your rigorous review of Professor Friedman's study. I found nothing there.

You go on to state that Professor Friedman makes “extreme claims” that “cannot be supported by the economic evidence.” You object to the projection of “huge beneficial impacts on growth rates, income and employment that exceed even the most grandiose predictions by Republicans about the impact of their tax cut proposals.”

You need to read this one as well because Dr. Galbraith rakes even Krugman over the coals for not doing due diligence.

Now we hear from Economist Dean Baker yesterday in a short article published in Hufpo.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dean-baker/the-four-economists-big-l_b_9275562.html

However much I may agree on the substance, it is hard to take the tone of a letter from four prominent economists speaking from the mountain of authority. The problem is that this mountain has shrunk a great deal in the last two decades.

He is referring to the fact that the government economical policies did fail. If you have not read the article please do.

Dr. Kelton is working on Sanders' proposals as his consultant. She is flying into Washington on a regular basis and only teaching one day a week at Kansas University. My personal feelings is she is right up there on the same pedestal with Elisabeth Warren. She is one of the top people in her field so of coarse his economic plans are being well thought out and researched by her. I read some of her work years ago and have been a fan of hers before I knew who Warren was. If he becomes President I do hope he selects her as Treasury Secretary.

So when Blankfiend says Sanders is dangerous is because he is really worried. Wall St. won't be picking Sanders' Treasury Secretary.

This is my big reason for voting for Sanders. It has been from the beginning of his announcement because I knew Dr. Kelton was his advisor in the Senate before he announced. It is time to sweep Milton Friedman and the Chicago School of thought into the dust bin of history.