dagblog - Comments for "Irony is dead. A short footnote to Alanis"

Thanks for this Q!! Right all

Obey — Sat, 26 Nov 2016 14:33:27 +0000

In reply to I donno, Obey. I'm feeling

Thanks for this Q!! Right all the way. Austria next, then France and then Germany. Somehow Fillon is supposed to be the hero swaying the masses against Le Pen. And Merkel and the SDP have left the extreme right as the only anti-establishment force going into the next election. That sounds promising. And now Italy looks headed for chaos with the constitutional referendum leaning towards a no. Their least bad hope is that literal and metaphorical clown Grillo. So yes, ALL of Europe. Even in Switzerland you hear intelligent otherwise moderate people voting for the extreme right UDC just because, hey, they throw a wrench in the workings of the corporate establishment, so why not? Liberal democracy dying with a shrug.

So yeah, I'm actually more hopeful about what can be done in the US. Not very hopeful, just ... more.

I don't think my comments

PeraclesPlease — Fri, 25 Nov 2016 14:41:34 +0000

In reply to Got to run to work, but all's

I don't think my comments were re: blaming Hillary - it was examining 3 main styles and which ones worked to what degree and why, and what it means going forward. Yeah, I can run this all through a translator.

Okay - newspeak: instead of the suckup to the "middle class", we will now speak about "working class". Everything will be about restoring manufacturing jobs, coal jobs, steel jobs, cotton, etc. Not that many of these people would work in them, but like all the people who wear cowboy hats and listen to country music, they think of themselves as this kind of Bruce Springsteen Dancers in the Dark, at least when not grabbing their junk in a Ted Nugent Stranglehold.

No more "I"- always "we" or better "you guys". Never mind that only 17% of the electorate was rural - we now have to anoint every voter as a representative of the fading cowboy west. Forget cities - just because people live there doesn't mean they're important.

Better to stoke people by playing up to local heroes - like Donald's calling out Joe Paterno while in Pittsburgh, kinda forgetting he's long dead and that Penn State is 140 miles away from Pittsburgh - he was calling out to the white not-quite-rural homies, letting them know he had their back (in a clean way, not like Jerry Sandusky and those football intern bottoms, but still, shouldn't have made such a big deal about those shower room scenes - just people trying to destroy Paterno's good name. "How's Joe Paterno? We're gonna bring that back? Right? How about that whole deal?" Yep, rigged. They come after you just for being white these days. We're under attack, Quinn - if not destroying our football, our diners, our pickups with a shotgun in the rack and a case of beer on the floor. Seat belts? don't get me started - fucking liberals.

I note from responses from real America that the protests, attacks, not accepting the results and overall intolerance comes from "progressive" America, not from Trump supporters, who were content to just beat up protesters and minorities at their own events. Perhaps liberals need to take a Populist Protests 101 class.

Got to run to work, but all's

quinn esq — Fri, 25 Nov 2016 12:22:54 +0000

In reply to Congratulations. Now that you

Got to run to work, but all's I know is that the last decade, we should've been tuned to "populism." Progressive values, a recognition that the times were in fast flux, but then just dialled it in as close to populist as we could get.

Key is, almost every single issue I've ever come across can be done populist, but either in a reactionary or a progressive manner. Bill C was actually quite good at this.

Take up here last election. Justin Trudeau - son of big-name politician, considered soft as hell, high school drama teacher for God's sake - and he went to the left, HARD, during the campaign. Committed to running big deficits. But for infrastructure, jobs, etc. Swept the board. Not saying that was a magic answer, it isn't. Just that it's worth noting how hard he shifted ground, and how he flipped it off "deficit."

When I see and hear the Dem leadership, all's I know is that for all their blah blah, they look and sound like the 1%. The elite, or the wanna be. Not many of them sound like Bill C in campaign mode. [And let's avoid debating whether Bill was truly right or left or whatever, I'm just talking about campaign style.]

Think about this Peracles.

"I'm with her."

Not... "She's with me."

I GET why they have that slogan, but the one thing it isn't, is populist.

And look at how the money got raised.

Forget blaming HRC, ok? We need to not spend our entire lives debating that.

But what would make anyone think that slogan appealed to a fairly upset populace?

And doesn't raising money that way, while making cleaning up campaign finance a major plank, look and sound a bit absurd?

Forget focussing on Trump and HRC. WHY. ARE. WE. Where we are?

Hate radio and shock jocks -

PeraclesPlease — Fri, 25 Nov 2016 07:21:10 +0000

In reply to I donno, Obey. I'm feeling

Hate radio and shock jocks - that's who we're combatting. Farage, Johnson, et al lied their way to Brexit. In the great Internet/Google age, we have more manipulated info than ever - even factual statistics bodies get kneecapped on the way to driving a hardcore misleading Brexit position.. Think back if you can to the Benghazi hearings - multiple. Failures, but not matter. And then they stumble upon a relatively meaningless email server - gold. The Republicans run in fulltime opposition mode. They crash the car, they're looking for keys to another even from a hospital bed. They just reached out and stole a Supreme Court seat, and we just let them. Super important slot, no protests.

News has changed - I try to follow the conservative press, but it's different - NRO is barely relevant - it's Breitbart, Drudge, and then the rest, all the blogs, Facebook, Twitter, and so on, we're post TeaParty, Alt-Right, whatever, huge undercurrent we don't see clearly - what's the message that's sticking? Not what's on CNN - a large portion of America thinks any major newspaper or network aside from Fox is rigged. Getting a story on the front page of the NY Times largely doesnt matter, and the Times is more concerned about Hamilton or emails than Trump settling a major university scam or having secret business ties with Russia.

Someone guesses a bunch of buses were for election protesters - gets retweeted a million or more times, makes the papers and right-wing outlets. Turns out they were for a software conference - correction got <5000 hits, no papers. Alt Truth is the new reality - we keep blaming Hillary, but she's been the prime motivator and target, though the birther movement shows it's far from just her. Now that far left Progressives don't have Crooked Warmongering Hillary to run against, what will they do?

BTW, I saw a buddy from Oregon a few weeks ago, and his take on the Bundys was very different, and he noted the Bundys did get support from local ranchers, that the gov position wasnt fair (and he's far from a right-winger type). News as trickled through Huffpost and CNN and Fox is often far from reality, and now that Huffpost has wandered into putting out really crappy polling info with a guy who barely understands statistics and types of accumulating error, we're really in for some fantasy.

And then there's Reality Show/NLP salesman Trump. We've continually had trouble in keeping Congress from Rick Santorum/Newt Gingrich/Tom DeLay types. And now we have a guy who leaves the voting populace in total cognitive dissonance, throwing up their hands and saying, "I give up, whatever you're selling I'll take 3". I watched Glen Garry Glen Ross last night - "I drove down here in an $80,000 Mercedes, that's my name. This Rolex cost more than your car." We *are* the loser salesmen with the lousy leads. Alec Baldwin/Donald Trump is the successful contemptuous messenger from downtown. And America isn't voting against establishment (check those re-election rates) - they're voting against malaise, lack of fire in the belly. Lack of scruples? No problem. But we need an audacious exceptional unworkable plan. Promise us anything, Promise just make it big, fill up our dreams, give us a million Likes. You're a success? I'm going to friend you on Facebook, maybe it'll rub off.

Congratulations. Now that you

PeraclesPlease — Fri, 25 Nov 2016 04:50:26 +0000

In reply to I donno, Obey. I'm feeling

Congratulations. Now that you finished (I hope) patting yourself on the back, a few comments...

1) People tend to do a few things well and poorly at the same time, especially if we think about different audiences. Sanders was great at taking anger to Dems, especially younger white ones. His populist fundraising was quite effective tied to a "get money out of politics" message in the primaries - how it would float in the generals with an onslaught of paid oppo advertising (including new dark fake news) is a bit less certain. Bernie's message to minorities is less certain and more tonedeaf. Hillary is more crafted for actually governing, doesn't have the simplified messaging, A better mashup of skills may have helped if the 2 factions could cooperate better.

2) I'm still puzzled about Hillary's ground game and how effective her spending and outreach are. I hear GOTV and then there's mixed signals about paid and volunteers at grassroots level, how much is being spent on media buys and other channels, what's the effectiveness. Of course she got say 51-52% of the vote, which beat Brexit, but we can't keep playing tight margins with gonzo opposition and take-no-prisoners results.

3) when you say anti-establishment, it's lovely to shake things up, but an obnoxious born-rich billionaire with elitist monied values is your change agent?

4) Republicans have made consistent gains at state level, largely through punching hippies and pushing cultural wars rather than sane economic policies. I think. From what I can tell, they're very good at passing the blame on to Democrats even while holding the majority. Democrats focussed ng on transgender bathrooms and a pipeline in Dakota certainly come across as elitist and unserious and contribute to the feeling we're not serious about core issues like jobs and wages, while contributing to whites' anger that their issues don't matter anymore.

5) Hillary was basically running with Obamacare - which originally was supposed to combine universal with affordable, but did better with the 1st. and we're still losing the media battle, badly, whatever its successes, every failure gets multipied (including the latest cost hikes).

There are 4 runaway cost items - healthcare/insurance, education, housing, and 1 I can't remembatthe moment. Bernie addressed the 1st 2 in a yuge way, even though one of Trump's big successes was to say he'd dismantle Obamacare. Wage equality/growth are big issues, but without jobs, wage equality is silly - and we likely didn't stress jobs recovery enough (nor blame Bush enough). And for the low educated, free education may be a gift for someone else's kid - another culture war, not the solution we think it is.

People at the bottom don't pay taxes - but uneducated whites vote as if they do, as if taxestheytaxes don't pay are key parts of their identity. My guess is the Republicans hage extended white identity to a halfway mythical state that keeps the anger always simmering even with irrelevant stuff.

But we still don't have a clear message or solution on wagesl equality, how to improve takehome, how to transform rural or semi-suburban life and jobs and what-all. Nor does Donald, aside from "Make America Great Again" and his claims that his non-government wealth translates to wealth for all. And of course there's no blame or accountability for what a Republican Congress means in consequence, only a vague bipartisan contempt - both sides do it.

6) Hillary was running as a "things are good, but need to be improved" candidate. Donald and Bernie ran as "everything sucks". Despite common media claims and endless echo, there was half and half disgruntlement. And you don't quite explain how to reconcile black anger and solutions over abuse with reflexive white "stop protesters" and "police need to do their job/law and order".

7) immigration, terrorism, security - what's our play, what's our brand? Obama did a lot of deportation, but also a lot os soft cuddly on embracing all races. What do we believe, what's our policy, what do which faction of voters believe - Mexican, Cuban, black, white rural, white urban, ... what's the power message vs "build a wall"? In fact, what's our 3 or 4 core, simple screaming points? but vague, *without* any detailed solution, just a generic, vague but huge answer.

Etc. your turn, say something real (aside from defending irresponsible Greeks who sucked off the system as long as they could and then just blame Germany)

I donno, Obey. I'm feeling

quinn esq — Fri, 25 Nov 2016 03:22:06 +0000

In reply to Irony is dead. A short footnote to Alanis

I donno, Obey. I'm feeling pretty good with how my take on things worked out.

Stick to the mainstream, play to the establishment, stay "safe" and do all the blah blah blah they tell you, and my view was you'd be a lamb to the slaughter - if the Republicans ran somebody with a populist bone on their body.

They did.

They won.

But now I have to listen to people - mostly my people, on my side - the Dems - whine on and on and endlessly fucking ON about how Bernie done us down or it was the anti-wimmins or I donno, any of an enormous list of their same goddamn reasons they always give.

I fucking give up on these people. They wanna navel-gaze and find new people [other than themselves] to blame, well.... fuckit, I'm bored. I've been bored with this traditional Democratic party inside baseball talk for some time. They're a fucking waste.

Literally all of Europe, all the world is facing complete political collapse and/or transformation, and we COMPLETELY IGNORED IT. And now most of the Dems are debating anything other than the fact that we just ran someone who was basically painted to the white line in the middle of the road.

And now we're shocked at the roadkill.

The evidence from elections and political events in Canada, the UK, Spain, Italy, Greece, France, Iceland - ALL FUCKING IGNORED.

It's not ironic, Obey. It's fucking moronic.

People - worldwide - are fucking outraged and FEEL THEIR LIVES COLLAPSING.

Is this so goddamn hard to grasp?

They have no savings, they fear for their jobs daily, their kids live at home, and the old Gods are gone.

I gave up on discussing this election with my own people this time. Debating people telling me about how Trump COULD. NOT. WIN. The polls, the machine, the this the that.... blah blah blah they went.... and now what?

Do people whose political insight and prognostications were SO BADLY SMASHED BY REALITY even have to take a few weeks to SHUT THE FUCK UP? And think? Rethink?

They do not.

Any serious capacity for self-reflection, self-criticism, whatever - apparently it's into the dustbin of history.

And meanwhile, we're stuck with a madman at the wheel.

Krugman is right.

moat — Tue, 22 Nov 2016 00:10:49 +0000

In reply to Krugman says the GOP

Krugman is right.
Tax credits can be a useful way to give new industries a leg up in markets stacked against them but using tax credits to finance government projects is simply bad accounting that leaves the public holding the bag.

Where is a fiscal conservative when you need one?

Alternately, you might want

Goldberry — Tue, 22 Nov 2016 00:09:24 +0000

In reply to You might want too heck your

Alternately, you might want to 'check' it (blind as a bat, here).

Krugman says the GOP

NCD — Mon, 21 Nov 2016 23:01:21 +0000

In reply to Obama and the Democrats

Krugman says the GOP infrastructure plans are all public/private where corporations put up say 18%, govt the rest in tax credits, and Wall Street gets guaranteed profits. He uses the Chicago privatized parking meter fiasco as an example. He says their plans will make America less competitive, enrich investors at main street expense, and won't create good jobs.

You might want too heck your

Goldberry — Mon, 21 Nov 2016 22:12:43 +0000

In reply to I didn't think it was

You might want too heck your junk mail for a link. Obi-wan.