dagblog - Comments for "WTF"

I'm coming back to this to

A Guy Called LULU — Thu, 19 Jan 2017 02:25:20 +0000

I'm coming back to this to suggest to anyone interested in listening to a good talk on the subject of 'empathy' and what it means to different people as well as 'evil' and whether there is even such a thing. I personally do not believe it is a thing which can be quantified based on results.

When considering the idea of

moat — Tue, 20 Dec 2016 23:09:23 +0000

In reply to WTF

When considering the idea of making a deal, I wonder what binds the parties to honor it once made.

In the Cold War, when the US and USSR made agreements regarding nuclear armament reductions, the deals were made between two hegemonies whose incentive to honor their side of the deal was part and parcel of the desire to be able to make other deals in the future. In the present environment, neither country is in much of a position to make arrangements beyond the sphere of influence of the deal makers at the time they negotiated with others.

On the Russian side, the Soviet state has been replaced with an oligarchy managed by the most ruthless survivors of its demise. On the U.S. side, foreign policy is not something that can be projected beyond any administration. Even that may be a stretch. For example, we have a situation where our President works out an agreement to lift sanctions on Iran while members of the GOP tell Iran that the deal has the half life of a gold fish.

If this is hegemony, we suck at it.

You don't have to be a

Michael Wolraich — Tue, 20 Dec 2016 22:00:46 +0000

In reply to Both counties have done bad

You don't have to be a statistician to measure evil. As PP points out, we're talking about hundreds of thousands killed in Syria with millions displaced. Bush's renditions were evil, but they were not on the same chart.

So if I were to criticize Assad for the slaughter in Syria, and you were to say, well Bush sent some people to Syria to be tortured, that comes off as apologetic for Assad--as if you're suggesting that he's no worse than Bush. But he is very much worse than Bush. He is directly responsible for more misery and killing than an almost anyone else alive today--all to continue his hold on power. That's about as evil as it gets before you get into Hitler/Stalin/Mao territory.

I'm not a big defender of

PeraclesPlease — Tue, 20 Dec 2016 17:37:39 +0000

In reply to Both counties have done bad

I'm not a big defender of Bush's torture program, but at the same time you're talking about 10 or 20 people in Syria (Open Society rendition summary) vs. literally millions caught up in Assad's fight against the opposition.

Both counties have done bad

A Guy Called LULU — Tue, 20 Dec 2016 16:08:29 +0000

In reply to Both counties have done bad

Both counties have done bad things, but to say that they are equally bad is false equivalence--like comparing Hillary's equivocations to Trump's flagrant lies.

Staying with the foreign entanglement angle I'll try to make an example of my thinking on false equivalence. I am fine with stipulating that Assad is as evil as you may like to say and then I'll point out that Syria under his regime is one of the places that our country sent people to be tortured. I do not have a clue how to divvy up in proper proportions the evil that should be credited to one side or the other in such an instance. Equivalence is irrelevant. It's not like a substance that can be weighed or measured for length and depth. Can we count the numbers of his own people he tortured and call that evil but count the number that we sent to him to be tortured and if the math is in our favor call that action by us less evil? I don't say their is no equivalence just because the equivalence I see doesn't weigh the same.

As for "smearing them with tar and never letting up … My bad for being unclear. I was criticizing the MSM as a whole, not Dag as a whole.

“ … … it's generally been in a sort of apologist mode--either minimizing their crimes or saying that other countries are just as bad.

I don’t feel like it is apologist mode but maybe empathetic and certainly an effort to see through propaganda that I think is poured on heavy by both sides. And as to blaming every regime that has earned blame, yes, I guess I could spend a lot of time talking about Saudi Arabia, for instance, or other disgusting regimes that we should be embarrassed to be supporting or even being friendly with.

I just read what I found to be a particularly interesting article about the Syrian conflict and some ways that were suggested early on as to the best ways of dealing with it. I'll post it in the news section.

Putin just signed a

rmrd0000 — Tue, 20 Dec 2016 14:40:28 +0000

In reply to "You've acted as if the EU

Putin just signed a cooperation pact with a Far Right party in Austria. This is an open attempt to "meddle" in European affairs.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/19/world/europe/austrias-far-right-signs-...

Trump's national security adviser met with the leader of the Far Right Austrian party before the pact was signed with Putin.

http://theweek.com/speedreads/668380/austrias-freedom-party-casually-men...

Nothing to see here. Nothing of concern.

It's not either/or - I

PeraclesPlease — Tue, 20 Dec 2016 02:37:00 +0000

In reply to "You've acted as if the EU

It's not either/or - I figured he was more pissed about sanctions than elections, but in any case he appears to have backed Trump and opposed Hillary, and the steady drip of leaks damaged her. Still need that smoking gun? Where I live there's crooked Russian money all over the place buying politicians et al. What's Trump's business in Russia? How much does he owe Russians, what dirt do they have on him, what was up with Manacort, etc? You don't do business in Russia without playing the game - Putin eats billionaires for breakfast - what's Trump in for?

As for the EU, I figured with your criticism of Nuland's interference and every move of the Kiev "Nazi junta" and iys impending collapse and sending us Moscow Times links that you shared that view of EU's imperialism.

Both counties have done bad

Michael Wolraich — Tue, 20 Dec 2016 02:23:03 +0000

In reply to Putin is described as a bully

Both counties have done bad things, but to say that they are equally bad is false equivalence--like comparing Hillary's equivocations to Trump's flagrant lies.

As for "smearing them with tar and never letting up," I don't know what you're talking about. Dagbloggers generally don't write much about Russia, and I only piped up because of your post. My wife is Russian, and she and her Russian friends criticize Putin far more than anyone at dag. And frankly, Putin is pretty bad dude, so calling him out is hardly "smearing."

When I've seen you write about Putin's regime, it's generally been in a sort of apologist mode--either minimizing their crimes or saying that other countries are just as bad. And frankly, I've only noticed you doing that with Russia, not other autocratic regimes. Given your skepticism about the behavior of various nation states including the U.S., your willingness to come to Russia's defense seems like a blind spot.

"You've acted as if the EU

A Guy Called LULU — Tue, 20 Dec 2016 01:52:35 +0000

In reply to You suggest diplomacy while

"You've acted as if the EU were hell on earth, ... ..."

Have you completely lost it? I don't recall ever even speaking here at Dag about what the E.U is like. Show a link or stfu with bs such as that.

In other interest of note, I am surprised you didn't link to this posting at Emptywheel. OK, that was bs on my part. Anyone reading it can see why you didn't/wouldn't. The title, "16 WORDS: “THE BRITISH GOVERNMENT HAS LEARNED THAT VLADIMIR PUTIN RECENTLY SOUGHT SIGNIFICANT QUANTITIES OF VOTES FOR TRUMP” gives a hint to its point of view but I recommend that anyone interested read the whole thing. Here is a teaser quote.

Rather, it is to ask why the CIA is so invested in the narrative that Putin specifically intervened to get Trump elected, rather than the more obvious explanation, which is that he intervened to retaliate for real and imagined CIA-led covert operations targeted at Russian interests?

There is actually a good conversation in the comments that follow.

The alliance we're backing in

PeraclesPlease — Mon, 19 Dec 2016 23:33:42 +0000

In reply to Putin is described as a bully

The alliance we're backing in Mosul is taking months to clear the city in avoiding civilian deaths. The Syrian/Russian attack on Aleppo has reveled in destroying civilian infrastructure. We don't "do the same thing", even if we do make mistakes.