dagblog - Comments for "Money in Politics"

I don't get the relevance of

Obey — Thu, 05 Jan 2017 22:34:38 +0000

In reply to If they REALLY didn't want

I don't get the relevance of the vote tally for Jill Stein, which you're not the first to cite. Somehow moderate democrats seem to feel some ownership of Jill Stein voters' franchise, and take it as a personal affront that they didn't vote democrat. Somehow it is their 'fault' that we've got Trump. That is to say, somehow more their fault than the moderate conservatives who stayed home or voted Trump.

I'm not being sarcastic. I really don't understand the sentiment, the peculiar outrage directed at Steiniacs. To me, it seems that moderates, amongst whom I'll include also the likes of myself, have more in common with moderate conservatives than with Jill Stein voters. I'd feel much more hope of coming to some agreement with, or convincing, the former than the latter. Stein voters, especially in this election, just have a very different set of values.

We had been through this

rmrd0000 — Thu, 05 Jan 2017 22:09:21 +0000

In reply to "I'm tired of voting out of

We had been through this before. In 2010, we were told to stay home to punish Democrats

Ed Schultz urged staying home in 2010

http://www.washingtontimes.com/blog/watercooler/2010/aug/1/ed-schultz-au...

The wingnuts loved it

http://hotair.com/archives/2010/08/02/ed-schultz-im-not-going-to-vote-in...

"I'm tired of voting out of

PeraclesPlease — Thu, 05 Jan 2017 21:28:25 +0000

In reply to If they REALLY didn't want

"I'm tired of voting out of fear." - did people come up with this themselvelves, or was it a spoonfed jingle like "Clinton dynasty" and "things go better with Coke"?

How susceptible are we to suggestion?

If they REALLY didn't want

Peter Schwartz — Thu, 05 Jan 2017 21:18:55 +0000

In reply to My point is I don't think

If they REALLY didn't want Trump in office, then they'd have gotten enthusiastic, even if they had to fake it. Of course, the "fear" angle was also mocked, as in, "I'm tired of voting out of fear." Fine, but don't excuse yourself from the consequences of not getting enthusiastic.

I don't have the numbers in front of me, but I believe that in certain states, the vote tally for Jill Stein was greater than the number of votes by which Hillary lost the state.

I'm not denying the enthusiasm gap at all and the points you mention. No question. I remember 2008 very well. But at a certain point, voters--each individual voter--has to take responsibility for the outcome he wants within the limits of the election at that point.

I can heap plenty of blame on Hillary, but I'm not going to blame Hillary for why "I didn't vote for her" and why I didn't go and drag my friends to the polls. All of THAT was on me.

In July, Brown vs. Kobach was

rmrd0000 — Thu, 05 Jan 2017 19:37:55 +0000

In reply to The pushback seems to me

In July, Brown vs. Kobach was argued in court by the ACLU. They didn't wait until August to take legal action. The legal wheels were turning much earlier than you wanted. You may be unaware that the wingnuts on the Supreme Court overturned the Voting Rights Act meaning that lawsuits can only be filed after a state takes an action.

http://www.kansascity.com/news/politics-government/article112662668.html

The wingnuts were going crazy because their voter ID laws were being challenged across the country. Their responses were laughable.

http://twitchy.com/brettt-3136/2016/07/30/attorney-general-loretta-lynch...

Sorry, but Bernie was

PeraclesPlease — Thu, 05 Jan 2017 19:09:24 +0000

In reply to Bernie was popular because

Sorry, but Bernie was discussing a rather more significant chunk of change than "some small portion", and the lack of detail made it difficult to debate.

The pushback seems to me

jollyroger — Thu, 05 Jan 2017 18:50:59 +0000

In reply to Those are not the only

The pushback seems to me problematic as follows: On the "aboveboard" side (eg, closing polling places, voter id stuff, what have you) at least one can see practical (if hugely burdensome--busses to get people IDs and to polling places etc.) lines of attack.

But how do you deal with the abuse of registration rolls by guys like ~~Kobach~~ EDIT TO CORRECT( whoever in Wisconsin did it) where suddenly 75,000 voters are vaporized on a duplicate name humbug?

To be frank, the only proper response to that, back in August, or whenever it was, was for Loretta Lynch to send five lawyers to the US Attorney's Office in the city where the statehouse is and convene a grand jury, to put the fear of god into the Pugs and to make a record that would on its face reverse the action.

That didn't happen.

Thanks, Obama!

Bernie was popular because

Obey — Thu, 05 Jan 2017 18:13:05 +0000

In reply to "There are no strong voices

Bernie was popular because the people he inspired wouldn't be paying for what he proposed,

The phrasing here is illustrative of the frame of mind I have a problem with.

The democrats and the republicans set up an economic system which funnels all the money to the rich bankers and lawyers and doctors, say, and then turn around and say that some small portion of that big pile of money should go to helping the other 90% of society. And those bankers and lawyers and doctors turn around and whine about the dirty huddled masses taking "their" money. And you're endorsing their framework.

We can get into the weeds about specific policies. But there is a pretty harsh divide in outlook within the democratic party, one which goes beyond distinctions such as hard-left/moderate-left, or goes beyond differences of opinion of matters that can be decided by hard, first-order material or numerical facts of the matter, like what empirical evidence there is for the economic ripple effects of a 12 dollar vs a 15 dollar minimum wage. Etc.

It's less marked in the US than in the UK maybe, but something I've noticed among friends in the UK labour party is the gaping chasm between grassroots corbynites and Blairite operators. They hate each other with a passion, so much that they are both prepared to destroy the labour party rather than give in to the opposing faction. They don't phrase it in that way, but their actions speak for themselves. And I'm not picking a side here, just stating an observation, that Blairite (and by extension the somewhat different Clintonite) coalition is fracturing.

And yet in those undoubtedly

CVille Dem — Thu, 05 Jan 2017 18:05:44 +0000

In reply to My point is I don't think

And yet in those undoubtedly "safe" states of New York and California, voters overwhelmingly chose Hillary Clinton. It must be because they actually thought she would be a great President, which I also thought. They theoretically had the luxury to vote a "purity" vote for a green candidate, or even for trump but they didn't. They actually LIKE Clinton. They actually wanted her policies . They actually believed she would do what she said she was going to do.

How about that?

My point is I don't think

Obey — Thu, 05 Jan 2017 17:46:13 +0000

In reply to Obey, you misunderstand me.

My point is I don't think people getting all existential and self-involved about their precious vote played a big role in swinging the election. Those are the people in safe states, New York or California sipping downward dogging their arugula latte or whatever.

The enthusiasm gap plays out in terms of a less solid gotv ground game, disengaged voters not getting dragged to the polls by their annoying political friends, kids not browbeating their half detached grandma with facts and figures, people not emptying their accounts with every fundraising email.