dagblog - Comments for "Trump-Putin Quid Pro Quo?"

You were more correct when

artappraiser — Wed, 15 Mar 2017 17:04:32 +0000

I think you were more correct when you cited the vox populi on another thread. That is the main modus operandi of the charismatic populist to float with the wind. A totalitarian state may initially gain its power through populism, but after it gains power it might enforce ideology antithetical to the vox populi. Just struck me reading this March 12 piece from the NYT on Modi in India:

Mr. Modi’s message has turned 180 degrees. In 2014, he promised “minimum government, maximum governance” — a streamlined administration that would not interfere in the private sector. He talked about attracting multinationals with tax breaks, about privatizing state companies and business-friendly land reforms. Now he speaks only of helping the poor, providing loan waivers to farmers, giving out free cylinders of gas and cleansing the system of corruption and the streets of filth.

Yes.

Bruce Levine — Tue, 14 Mar 2017 23:21:22 +0000

In reply to How easy it is for

Yes.

How easy it is for

NCD — Tue, 14 Mar 2017 23:18:39 +0000

In reply to Trump, March 2014: “We should

How easy it is for authoritarian liars to, at their convenience, flip the propaganda, (can't help it, but I read this guy's 1000 page diary.)

Lingua tertii imperii - . August 29, 1939 - Lingua...there is no longer any talk of Bolshevists, but instead of the Russian people.

[ Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact, (August 23, 1939) ]

Trump, March 2014: “We should

Michael Wolraich — Tue, 14 Mar 2017 22:08:02 +0000

In reply to Michael, I like this timeline

Trump, March 2014: “We should definitely do sanctions and we have to show some strengths. I mean, Putin has eaten Obama’s lunch, therefore our lunch, for a long period of time,” Trump said. “I just hope that Obama, who’s not looking too good, doesn’t do something very foolish and very stupid to show his manhood.”

On the other hand, Trump questioned Russia's responsibility for MH17 in October 2015.

Thanks, Erica. It's great to

Michael Wolraich — Tue, 14 Mar 2017 21:26:00 +0000

In reply to Michael, I like this timeline

Thanks, Erica. It's great to see you back at dag. Good questions. I can't answer the 85th birthday party question, but I do have some relevant tidbits about Trump's ideas.

He mentioned WWIII in September 2015, not in reference to Ukraine but Syria.

"They want to start World War III over Syria. Give me a break," Trump said at the State Fairgrounds in Oklahoma City.

"You know Russia wants to get ISIS right. We want to get ISIS. Russia’s in Syria. Maybe we should let them do it?," he continued. "Let them do it. What the hell are we crazy?"

Trump tends to reuse stock expressions, so I suspect that don't-want-to-start-www3 is just one of his standard retorts to internationalists, than a thought-out geopolitical worldview. (Note: It's hard to search for this because of all the clutter from articles warning that Trump will start WWIII.)

More interestingly, Trump also expressed support for Ukraine in September 2015:

Trump was speaking to the Yalta European Strategy Forum, an annual gathering of politicians and businesspeople organised by Ukrainian oligarch Viktor Pinchuk. Former UK prime minister Tony Blair is a frequent guest at the forum, and spoke on Friday in a discussion with former Israeli president Shimon Peres. Trump’s video link was subject to a delay of several seconds, which appeared to confuse Trump. Nevertheless, he was able to touch on a number of major foreign policy issues in his opening remarks.

“My feeling toward the Ukraine and towards the entire area is very, very strong. I know many people that live in the Ukraine, they’re friends of mine, they’re fantastic people,” said Trump, who referred repeatedly to “the Ukraine”, apparently oblivious to the fact the use of the definite article when referring to the country is considered insulting by Ukrainians.

Trump praised Germany’s decision to take in Syrian refugees and proposed creating a “safe zone some place in Syria” in order to stop the flow of migrants travelling to Europe.

He criticised Germany and other European countries for not doing enough to support Ukraine in its conflict with Russia, however.

“We will make statements and I think those statements will be honoured,” he said of a putative Trump policy towards Ukraine. “The fact is that the Ukraine is an amazing place. These are people who know what’s right and they’re not being treated right.”

It was a change of tune from last month, when Trump said he “wouldn’t care” whether or not Nato accepted Ukraine as a member.

“Viktor I’ve known for a long time and he is a tremendous guy,” said Trump of the Ukrainian oligarch, who is married to the daughter of Ukraine’s former president, Leonid Kuchma. “When he was up seeing me I said I think I can learn more from you than you can learn from me.”

Trump spoke repeatedly about respect, noting that the world does not respect Barack Obama. He also accused Europe of lacking respect for Ukraine: “I don’t think that the Ukraine is given the proper respect from other parts in Europe. And this is a respect that the Ukraine deserves and they have proven this over many years,” he said, to a smattering of applause.

When asked about what changes a President Trump would make to the US military he said: “Our military would be very, very strong. Hopefully to a point where we wouldn’t have to use it because frankly we are not respected to the same extent we were in the past.”

Unfortunately, Trump’s video link was cut off before the assembled politicians had a chance to begin a question-and-answer session with the Republican frontrunner.

So what happened between September 2015 and March 2016 to change Trump's point of view?

Michael, I like this timeline

erica20 — Mon, 13 Mar 2017 21:36:48 +0000

In reply to Trump-Putin Quid Pro Quo?

Michael, I like this timeline. It's not so "gotcha!" as some of what's out there, in which a conversation is had and two days later the "proof" of the collusion is trotted out as if one led directly to the other. Real life, of course, is not like the movies, where people change their minds about things in a crucial moment, do so decisively, and the consequences are visible within a 96 minute run time. In the real world, people talk, they say nothing's changed, then they go off and think about things for awhile, and somewhere down the line, the force of their new thinking finds an issue to act on.

I'd like to see more timeline events along these subtle lines. Who first used the phrase "World War 3" about the Ukraine, to Trump or his advisors, which ones, and how many times? It seems like a pretty specific turn of phrase that must have been burbling in Trump's mind for awhile (although with Trump's attention span maybe not.)

Also, almost every public act represents some preparation, however mundane. When did each player make travel reservations, or call their grandmother to let her know they wouldn't be attending her 85th birthday party? And if they simply didn't show up at the party to avoid having to make up an excuse because the truth wouldn't work, that's a clue too.

Will you be adding to this timeline?

hmmm,too bizarre, imma shutup

PeraclesPlease — Sun, 12 Mar 2017 17:56:27 +0000

In reply to Regarding Michael Brown,

hmmm,too bizarre, imma shutup now.

Regarding Michael Brown,

rmrd0000 — Sun, 12 Mar 2017 15:42:27 +0000

In reply to It began with a complaint

Regarding Michael Brown, there is new video footage that adds questions about what happened in the store prior to the homicide.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/03/11/us/michael-brown-ferguson-police-shoo...

It began with a complaint

rmrd0000 — Sun, 12 Mar 2017 13:52:39 +0000

In reply to I remember Physics majors

It began with a complaint about blacks still bellyaching despite having "their" President for 8 years. I thought the complaint ignored the current situation ignored current phenomena like voter suppression, police abuse,, targeted high risk home loans, etc. The complain may have reflected anger because I repeatedly suggest that many whir voters won't return to the Democratic Party for the same type of racism that led many Southern whites to reject the Democrats after the Civil Rights bills.

There are many recent books about backlash to black progress and why bellyaching persists including:

"White Rage" by Carol Anderson and "Stamped From the Beginning" by Ibram Kendi. Both argue that black progress results in a racist pushback since black immigrants came in chains."Hillbilly Elegy" makes the argument that economic devastation and distrust of government explain the options whites have about the reason for their status.The book suggests racism is not a major factor. We all have tribal rationales.Black complaints are bellyaching. White complaints are justified. Both groups are fighting for crumbs.

Chris Hayes and Bernie Sanders are doing a town hall in West Virginia tomorrow. It will be interesting to see how members of the town feel about Trump's first 50 days.

I remember Physics majors

PeraclesPlease — Sun, 12 Mar 2017 12:20:00 +0000

In reply to You can't do engineering if

I remember Physics majors telling me they were better programmers than Computer Scientists. They weren't, even though for particular domains of Physics research some were quite competent at for example modeling fluids or handling nuclear reaction simulations - 1 example of programming, but only distantly related to what VMware or Google or Salesforce are doing. But in any case, when headhunters come calling, they want to know "do you know Ruby, Elkstack, Docker & AWS Cassandra", and pretty much anything that doesn't fit goes in the trash. There is 0 industry appetite for retraining people in anything. So yeah, if an Engineer can teach him/herself these skillsets, and put up a credible CV, they may get an interview. Or find a friend of a friend to push them forward in the process.

BTW - how did we get so far away from Michael's thread? In this case, with the overload of Trump/Russia discussions, I don't particularly mind, but in general funny how these threads take off.