dagblog - Comments for "The Anger They Carried"

It's not that simple. I don't

ocean-kat — Thu, 30 Nov 2017 06:47:08 +0000

In reply to But the fundamental question

It's not that simple. I don't care if Franken resigns because his replacement will be another democrat. But it sets a precedent that other democrats will be expected to follow. The next man expected to resign might be from a state with a republican governor. The offense was so minor imo. The goal is to stop the behavior and public shaming will do that. What happens if voters elect Moore? Republicans don't resign even in the face of credible allegations of child molestation while democrats resign over a couple of pats on the butt. Vitter gets reelected after seeing a prostitute and Spitzer resigns. That double standard puts democrats at a severe disadvantage.

My point in discussing the Lewinsky affair is that we shouldn't set standards that a majority of people can not meet. What ever your ethical beliefs face the fact that homo sapiens have trouble being monogamous, both men and women. I think we must take account of normal human frailty when we set these standards

That's pretty tough - what is

PeraclesPlease — Thu, 30 Nov 2017 05:28:00 +0000

In reply to But the fundamental question

That's pretty tough - what is the greater good, how much responsibility is reasonable to expect?

And like all things, that "personal responsibility" can become a politicized anchor weight with which to bludgeon an opponent with.

Right now we'll see conflicting but necessary responsibilities to fight rampant embedded sexism & sexual abuse/heavy harassment while fighting kneejerk witch hunts chasing piccadillos while purportedly weeding out sexism. This is not surprising - conflating issues is often one of the ways to disarm and muddy the waters. "If you can't beat 'em, dazzle 'em with bullshit". In this case there's a specific Republican / Democrat jockeying going on.

Here's sexual predator Roy Moore's course on why women aren't morally suited for office or basically any job, and I'm going to get bent out of shape on whether Al Franken touched someone's butt *AFTER* an obvious hatchet job by a Fox News announcer? Sorry, this discussion seems *exactly* how the fucking right wing wants to distract us. We have a responsibility all not to get sidetracked and spun out of shape on stupid shit.

But the fundamental question

tmccarthy0 — Thu, 30 Nov 2017 01:28:40 +0000

In reply to The Anger They Carried

But the fundamental question still remains, do leaders have a personal responsibility to sacrifice for the greater good? That is basically all I am asking up there, that's it, so do they or don't they?

Starr made a complete turn

Ramona — Tue, 28 Nov 2017 01:25:14 +0000

In reply to I think a pretty save rule

Starr made a complete turn-around in May, 2016, calling Clinton "the most gifted politician of the Baby Boomer generation". He wrote: "His genuine empathy for human beings is absolutely clear. It is powerful, it is palpable, and the folks of Arkansas really understood that about him--that he genuinely cared. The 'I feel your pain' is absolutely genuine."

Go figure.

I see Trump and Moore as real

Ramona — Tue, 28 Nov 2017 01:15:00 +0000

In reply to Actually, I didn’t mean to

I see Trump and Moore as real predators. They both have long histories of improprieties, if not outright abuse. If there is any justice in the world, they'll pay and pay big.

I think a pretty save rule

Flavius — Tue, 28 Nov 2017 01:09:15 +0000

In reply to I don't dismiss Franken's

I think a pretty safe rule is that if Ken Starr didn't use it ,it didn't happen.

In the waiting room at Brigham's and Women's Hospital. Two others. A local woman, puts down her Globe and says " I can't believe it. That Mr. Starr want's to have Chelsea testify."

The other woman.

"I am an attorney and we had Ken Starr at the annual meeting of the Oklahoma bar. I'm a Republican. Have never voted for a Democrat in my life and I expect I never will. But as he spoke I became more and more upset.

He said

Bill Clinton's an evil man and I am going to drive him from office if that's the last thing I do.

And I thought how is that an appropriate statement for a prosecutor , one working for the Government itself? And delivered to the meeting of a Bar Association.

And he charged us $20,000."

Tmac, I've had some of those

Ramona — Tue, 28 Nov 2017 00:30:00 +0000

In reply to The Anger They Carried

Tmac, I've had some of those same disappointments and doubts, but when it comes to Franken I still go back to degree. I don't have doubts that he should remain in the Senate, where he can now be a greater advocate for women. This has chastened him--I'm convinced.

But I've been thinking about what you said about Bill Clinton. Until Sen. Gillibrand brought it up, I never once thought Clinton should have resigned. As sleazy as that affair was, and as visible as the sleaze became, I never veered from the idea that it was, in fact, a vast Right Wing conspiracy threatening to bring the White House down. He brought much of it on himself, I'll agree, but I believe if he had resigned the power of the Right Wing would have grown to heights we couldn't even imagine. Al Gore didn't have the chops to stem that tide.

I don't believe Clinton's actions brought us Donald Trump. The Clinton scandal was ugly and exhausting and the thought of going through that again anywhere, anytime didn't even factor in. With Trump, we could see it coming a mile away.

The "Me,Too" movement is late in coming but Trump is the catalyst, not Clinton. The revelations in the past few weeks are not surprising, given the decades-long open secrets, but now we need to keep it going in order to ensure safety and solace for new generations. I think what bothers me most about lumping Franken in with all the rest is that we're in danger of forgetting about degree. If the punishment should fit the crime, where is the crime? What Weinstein has done, what Trump has done, what Roy Moore has done, what Kevin Spacey has done, what Charlie Rose has done--they are crimes. I see Franken's offenses as sexual idiocy that borders on violation but doesn't quite go there.

I do like him and I would hate to see him lose his job, but I can say without hesitation that if he had lied about it, made light of it, refused to accept blame, I would be calling for his head. It makes all the difference in the world to me that he immediately took responsibility, didn't hesitate about apologizing, and treated each victim as a human being he and he alone was responsible for hurting. Big difference, at least for me.

Actually, I didn’t mean to

CVille Dem — Tue, 28 Nov 2017 00:22:04 +0000

In reply to Cville, most of what you said

Actually, I didn’t mean to imply that these women are all lying. My point was that I had experience with a woman who lied the same way, and I don’t think we should automatically believe accusations just because women made them as opposed to giving a hearing to all sides. I found the stories a little fishy, as I said, and I also find the offenses, as I see that, to be relatively trivial.

I also like Franken, and am more inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt. I have also been in situations that shocked me because I honestly perceived a specific event fundamentally differently someone else whom I also think was being honest. I admit to being prejudiced toward Al. I also admit to being prejudiced against trump, moore, newt Gingrich and others. It is their general behavior that makes me think I can’t trust their words. In fact, Moore and trump’s complete idiocy are more disqualifying than any of the potential charges that they seemed to have skirted over time.

Cville, most of what you said

Ramona — Mon, 27 Nov 2017 23:47:28 +0000

In reply to I couldn't disagree more. No

Cville, most of what you said here mirrors my own thinking with one exception: I don't know who's lying and who isn't but when Franken called for an investigation, when he apologized unconditionally, when he admitted his embarrassment and shame, I believed him. Even with the addition of a couple more butt grabs , I believe him. (I heard a Trumpster say today that Al is an actor so of course he could apologize well enough to make us believe him. I submit that he's not that good at acting. I believe him.)

I have no reason to doubt he'll make up for it by working to understand women's issues more thoroughly and thoughtfully. I despise butt-grabbers and hate it when men distress and demean women in order to seem sexy or clever or funny. It could be because I really like Al Franken, but his actions right from the get-go told me he was sincerely sorry. That puts him in a different category entirely. That, and the fact that his actions, stupid as they were, were not power plays or predatory. They were just dumb.

I'm getting rather tired of having to defend him when I would rather just smack him silly and send him to his room, but I can't ignore the level or degree of his actions, compared to what so many others have done that were so extreme and harmful. Anyway, thanks for your thoughts here. Much appreciated.

I'm already on the record on

Michael Maiello — Mon, 27 Nov 2017 16:26:53 +0000

In reply to The Anger They Carried

I'm already on the record on the other side of this issues re: both Bill Clinton and Franken. But rather than argue with you, I'll point to what I think is interesting in your argument -- who gets to be indispensable in politics? John Edwards had a consensual affair, ugly because of his wife's medical condition, but consensual. He was out. Newt Gingrich survived much the same thing.

All depends on who your team is, I guess and where you sit in the pecking order. All very circumstantial.