dagblog - Comments for "The centrist heavenly chorus is off-key"

Matthew Yglesias has put out

artappraiser — Wed, 11 Jul 2018 17:08:16 +0000

In reply to The centrist heavenly chorus is off-key

Matthew Yglesias has put out an interesting approach: that they have become the real swamp, the epitomy of the swamp.

Trump’s administration can’t clean house because its leader is too soaked in scandal

It’s party time for grifters in today’s GOP.

@ Vox.com, July

[....] And this is the really striking thing about the current state of Republican Party politics — not the handful of crooks and spouse abusers who’ve been forced out of their jobs, but the petulant and foot-dragging manner in which they’ve been cashiered, the continued tolerance for so many apparent malefactors, and the evident lack of desire to even attempt anything resembling a proper house-cleaning.

The situation is an embarrassment to dignified political and policy professionals who happen to believe in low taxes and restricting the legal availability of abortion. And it’s obviously a drag on the Republican Party’s approval ratings, which remain dismal for a party presiding over peace and prosperity.

But nothing can realistically be done about it because there’s no way to hold your team to any kind of normal standard of conduct when Donald Trump is captain of the ship. According to his accusers, Trump is personally guilty of all these misdeeds and more. He simply can’t do anything about it even if he wanted to [....]

To me, it follows that fresh faces that have been genuinely motivated by what's going on will appeal to voters, whether liberal or moderate. Women are a change implying that they will be different, whether that's healthy to think that, we'll see.

I think these results from the July 2 Quinnipiac poll fit here:

Voters say 71 - 20 percent, including 51 - 36 percent among Republicans, they would like to see the U.S. Congress be a check on the president.

and

American voters disapprove 78 - 15 percent of the way Congress is handling its job

and

If the election for the U.S. House of Representatives were held today, 50 percent of American voters say they would vote for the Democratic candidate, as 41 percent say they would vote for the Republican candidate.
Independent voters back the Democratic candidate 49 - 35 percent. There are wide gender and racial gaps:

Men go Republican 50 - 42 percent as women go Democratic 58 - 33 percent;
White voters are divided 46 - 46 percent. Backing Democratic candidates are black voters 80 - 13 percent and Hispanic voters 60 - 35 percent.

Frank Bruni retort: The

artappraiser — Wed, 11 Jul 2018 16:31:37 +0000

In reply to The centrist heavenly chorus is off-key

Frank Bruni retort: The Center Is Sexier Than You Think, @ NYTimes.com, July 10

Max Rose, who won the Democratic primary in
New York’s 11th Congressional District, which
covers Staten Island and parts of Brooklyn,
by staking out relatively moderate ground.
He will face the Republican incumbent,
Dan Donovan
Credit: Stephanie Keith for The NY Times

Enough about the Freedom Caucus. Enough about the Democratic Socialists of America. They’re flamboyant players in our political debate, but they’re extremes: More politicians — and most Americans — occupy the expansive territory in between. That’s where the pivotal races in 2018 are being fought. And if Democrats take back the House, it’s where any legislation with a prayer of getting through Congress will be hammered out.

The story of the 2018 midterms isn’t Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez in New York’s 14th District, Ben Jealous in the Democratic gubernatorial primary in Maryland and a leftist surge. Or, rather, that’s just one narrative, eclipsed by the less cinematic triumphs of less progressive Democrats. They’re by and large winning the primaries in the swing districts that might actually turn from red to blue. They’re the stars of their party’s mission to erect a barricade against the worst of Donald Trump.

Without doubt, Ocasio-Cortez’s ouster of Joe Crowley in the Democratic primary delivered an important message about entrenched politicians disconnected from their constituents. But when she gets to Congress, she won’t be replacing a Republican. She’ll be a new Democrat (and yes, a new kind of Democrat) in a seat that the party already holds and wasn’t going to lose. And she’ll almost surely be outnumbered by Democratic newcomers who waged more moderate campaigns in areas of the country where that’s the safer tack.

“The real story out of these Democratic primaries isn’t left or right — it’s women,” Dave Wasserman, who analyzes House races for the nonpartisan Cook Political Report, told me. Additionally, he said, he has been struck by the consequential role of candidates’ biographies, sometimes captured in compelling campaign videos, like Ocasio-Cortez’s, that go viral. [....]

While I don't want that crowd

barefooted — Sun, 08 Jul 2018 01:25:37 +0000

In reply to To start at your end, I am

While I don't want that crowd to side with the Republicans, they aren't a thing. It is politically expedient not to piss them off but they are not a collective that tells other people what pisses them off.
Maybe they could do some work instead of drafting behind bigger vehicles.

Forgive the copy and paste of words you wrote just above, but I wanted to be clear. I agree completely.

Oftentimes Independents define themselves as being neither left or right, therefore seeming to take a higher ground when it comes to gritty party politics - yet they, as political observers (assuming they are), are either conservative-leaning or liberal-leaning. Basically, they still vote either R or D. When they assume the mantle of "bi-partisan" I am suspicious, at best, because at least in our current age I don't see that as possible.

Prominent Republicans that have left the party have not become Democrats, but Independents. They declare that as though that frees them of any responsibility for their prior beliefs and enables them to be completely ... what?

I don't know. I've thought in the past of becoming an Independent, but I realized that what I was looking for was a way to make politics work for me, to make it something I could understand and believe in - which is why I'm still a happy Democrat.

To start at your end, I am

moat — Fri, 06 Jul 2018 22:57:30 +0000

In reply to I re-reread Dionne's piece

To start at your end, I am not accusing Dionne of bad faith or that he doesn't get big tent politics. I think you are correct that he pitched this essay toward self-identified independents who do not like much of anything they see on the menu.
While I don't want that crowd to side with the Republicans, they aren't a thing. It is politically expedient not to piss them off but they are not a collective that tells other people what pisses them off.
Maybe they could do some work instead of drafting behind bigger vehicles.

I re-reread Dionne's piece

AmericanDreamer — Fri, 06 Jul 2018 21:41:25 +0000

In reply to I do agree with Dionne that

I re-reread Dionne's piece after reading your comments. I now think this was probably not one of his pieces I should have posted.

He's usually quite clear, I find. Less clear here, it seems to me now. I took him to be pitching, in this piece, to self-described independents with the argument that unless you are a right-wing extremist, a vote for the Democrats is your best bet in November. His argument being based mainly on there being no "centrist" third party on the ballot, and because Democrats these days are much closer to "the ideological center" at this time. ("Centrism" is a dubious concept in my mind and one which I've sometimes criticized. Yet it is one that nonetheless seems to mean something positive to some voters whose clearest sentiment is that they do not like either political party, and especially do not like what they hear from those they perceive as towards either "end" of the ideological spectrum within both major political parties.)

I've read many of Dionne's books as well as columns. He is highly knowledgeable about seemingly all strands of U.S. political and social thought, and historically grounded as well. I believe he deliberately aims to be difficult to disagree with, offering opinions relatively easy to defend for a broad range of Democratic politicians and opinion leaders--sometimes to a somewhat annoying degree from my standpoint, and in contrast to other opinion writers who are deliberately trying to provoke reactions instead of agreement from readers. Dionne is an advocate for and practitioner of big tent politics. He is regularly at pains to seek to avert or patch over splits within the actual and potential Democratic electorate. I have difficulty fathoming that all of a sudden he would in this piece have some contrary aim.

I do agree with Dionne that

moat — Fri, 06 Jul 2018 20:55:01 +0000

In reply to moat, perhaps I'm

I do agree with Dionne that there are real divisions. But isn't he advancing against a largely undefended position?
And while there may be some who take the position that elites are working the puppet strings, does that make it a myth?

Some of my reaction comes down to how the word myth is being used. Myth suggests the legendary narrative, the fable that is the source of other stories. It has come to be used in psychology, history, and literature as way to point to fundamental elements. In that sense, a myth can be true or false in response to a situation but the first order of business is to show the myth is what is being said, even if it is not obvious at first.

Problems with the lexicon aside, Dionne's reference to the Democrats as not being as extreme in their differences as Republicans is a supremely "centrist" point of view. Maybe he is working a myth he has not come to terms with yet. But there is another unhelpful element. The Democrats just went through a general election that deeply divided the party and the results are still with us. The party needs all the unity it can scrap together. Is there a false narrative being put forward that is hindering that?

moat, perhaps I'm

AmericanDreamer — Fri, 06 Jul 2018 19:40:22 +0000

In reply to I am not sure Dionne is

moat, perhaps I'm misunderstanding you. But aren't you and Dionne agreeing that political polarization reflects real divisions in our country, not only at the elite behavioral level?

I think he's talking pre

artappraiser — Fri, 06 Jul 2018 01:38:47 +0000

In reply to I am not sure Dionne is

I think he's talking pre-Trump stuff that's no longer applicable, just that simple, thinking in the past. Edit to add: and from what I've seen of him on cable TV news, he often does that.

I am not sure Dionne is

moat — Fri, 06 Jul 2018 01:23:21 +0000

In reply to The centrist heavenly chorus is off-key

I am not sure Dionne is helping. There are myths that support the identity of one who sees themselves in the center between extremes. They do not invoke any of the three he cites. Let's go through them and consider their merits.

First, that political polarization is primarily a product of how elites behave and not the result of real divisions in our country.

If this election cycle has shown anybody anything, it is how sharply you may differ from your neighbors and family about what should happen and what is most important for our body politic to embrace. I have no idea what is being proposed by suggesting something else is driving the conversation.

Second, that a vast group of party-loathing independents can be mobilized by anti-partisan messages.

What does that even mean? If people select something without regard to affiliation, that means they aren't available for mobilization. I can guess what is meant by suggesting that this is a myth but why bother? Aren't myths supposed to be more compelling than this idea? Where "independents" stand is the hockey puck in a game nobody is willing to bet upon.

Third, that Republicans and Democrats are becoming increasingly and equally extreme, so they should be scolded equally.

Okay. This observation has merit as a rebuke of the both sides do it meme. But is it a myth? Scolding? You scold someone you have some measure of power over. Who thinks they have that power? Nobody I know.

For those interested, if the

AmericanDreamer — Thu, 05 Jul 2018 16:19:50 +0000

In reply to The centrist heavenly chorus is off-key

For those interested, if the link provided is behind a firewall, try this one, which appears not to be behind a firewall: https://www.arcamax.com/politics/fromtheleft/ejdionnejr/s-2098176?fs