dagblog - Comments for "Senators Flake and Coons on 60 minutes this evening"

Flake: I sometimes feel like

artappraiser — Tue, 02 Oct 2018 06:32:52 +0000

In reply to Senators Flake and Coons on 60 minutes this evening

Flake: I sometimes feel like I'm 'without a party'

By Michael Burke @ TheHill.com - 10/01/18 11:21 PM EDT

Sen. Jeff Flake (R-Ariz.) said Monday evening that he sometimes feels like he doesn't belong to a political party.

“I sometimes feel like a man temporarily without a party,” he said during a speech at the New Hampshire Institute of Politics at Saint Anselm College, according to The Washington Post.

Flake also criticized his party during the speech, saying members of the GOP have "given in to the terrible tribal impulse that first mistakes our opponents for our enemies."

“And then we become seized with the conviction that we must destroy that enemy," he said [....]

Flake said Monday that the investigation needs to be a "real investigation," according to the Post.

“It does no good to have an investigation that just gives us more cover,” Flake said. “We actually need to find out what we can find out. And we have to realize that we may not be able to find out everything that happened." [....]

And there was no need for the

artappraiser — Mon, 01 Oct 2018 18:27:04 +0000

In reply to Its about the Democratic

And there was no need for the Pew link. I posted the exact same info right at the start of my original comment from Wikipedia, including the numbers for Democratic leaners and Republican leaners. Straw manning again, as if I was saying something else. Maybe you do it because you have no reading comprehension, I don't know. You consistently do this, and it's offensive to the person you are responding to, you're not really conversing, you are just pushing against straw men. And then your respondent finds himself wasting time having to talk about shit they weren't saying because something they weren't saying is presumed to be what they were saying.. And sorry they didn't ignore you, because they are wasting time going over the same stuff. Whatever the reason, it ends up trollish, very trollish.

Have a nice day

rmrd0000 — Mon, 01 Oct 2018 18:26:58 +0000

In reply to And there was no need for the

Have a nice day

It’s 2018. People have seen

rmrd0000 — Mon, 01 Oct 2018 18:20:55 +0000

In reply to Yeah some even voted for

It’s 2018. People have seen Trump and the GOP in action. We will see who shows up at the polls.

Yeah some even voted for

artappraiser — Mon, 01 Oct 2018 18:15:43 +0000

In reply to Its about the Democratic

Yeah some even voted for Obama twice and then for Trump when he sold himself as anti-establishment Republican who was for health care for all. Don't underestimate any time a Republican, or Democrat for that matter, bucks their party line. The hunger for doing that is so great for Independents that they start to see stars when someone like Flake does it a couple of times. Trump used this to win, he dissed a lot of his GOP opponents bigly before dissing Hillary as a party hack.Obama used it too, by making an organization of his own to run his campaign, apart from the Democratic apparatus.

It's a dangerous recipe for demagogues to make use of if voters don't really know what the candidate believes, only knowing that he/she dislikes the party.

But there is strong dislike of the traditional party brands.

For an example, you push the traditionalist Dem party brand and especially the Identity Politics brand on this website. To be perfectly blunt, if you came canvassing to my front door with the same shtick, I would have a real hard time voting for the candidate you were supporting even if I liked him, because I find a lot of your identity politics not just offensive but dangerous and against what I think this country is all about. Make no mistake that a lot of Independents feel strongly about not wanting to be aligned with either party. Your rah rah support the Dem troops is a big turn off to many Independents.

Its about the Democratic

rmrd0000 — Mon, 01 Oct 2018 17:57:22 +0000

In reply to Who said he did? Why is it

Its about the Democratic Party because I am a Democrat. Most Independents actually lean toward a particular party even though they may not be enthusiastic

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/07/05/5-facts-about-americas-p...

Who said he did? Why is it

artappraiser — Mon, 01 Oct 2018 17:23:56 +0000

In reply to Nothing in your post

Who said he did? Why is it always about the Dem party for you, when self-identified Dems are less than 1/3 of the population? Mr. Kirschner actually did not raise the name Flake., someone replying to his tweet about a bi-partisan ticket did with Flake/Coons. Coons is a Democrat. I posted that here because I saw both as evidence of a hunger among many for politicians who exhibit independence from party. Yes, Flake has voted conservative but he works with Coons on this. There were many other answers to Kirschner's tweet, though.

Edit to add: Dem party loyalists angry about Bernie Sanders not being a loyal Dem aren't seeing the forest for the trees. Whether or not you like his ideas, he's Independent for the most part because he knows that's where the foreseeable future is going and it's helped get him re-elected as a Senator time after time.

You really overestimate the popularity of the Dem party. Only a third of the public wants to identify with them.

You often talk as if self

artappraiser — Mon, 01 Oct 2018 17:07:30 +0000

In reply to Flake doesn’t like Trump’s

You often talk as if self-identified Democrats are the majority in numbers (and that therefore if they just got out their vote they could always win things.) Is not true.

As of October 2017, Gallup polling found that 31% of Americans identified as Democrat, 24% identified as Republican, and 42% as Independent.[3] Additionally, polling showed that 46% are either "Democrats or Democratic leaners" and 39% are either "Republicans or Republican leaners" when Independents are asked "do you lean more to the Democratic Party or the Republican Party?"[4]

(Wikipedia)

I would like to point out that what started this discussion is a tweet by this guy saying in all caps YES that it's time for a bipartisan ticket:

@NBCNews and @MSNBC Legal Analyst; Fmr 30-yr fed prosecutor w/ DC US Attorney's Office, DC Chief of Homicide & Army JAG, @wlunews '84, @newenglandlaw '87

This is not a low info. voter. One who worked "rule of law" jobs most of his life where one might presume he's Republican but now he's working with "the left wing media."

I think people who don't take Independent identification seriously are making stupid errors in analysis of the political situation. There's a majority of us out there are not loyal to the parties and vote for individuals.

Our country has always had a strong independent streak to its character, it's a country made of immigrants who chose to leave their home country/tribe and raise children away from the old ways, to have a chance to change their social class and not be limited to tribes. To me, one fruition of that playing out is that those children don't think tribally on politics, either. Just because everyone you know has votes for one party because their parents and grandparents did, doesn't mean that's the way it is for a majority out there now. Party enthusiasm might even turn such people off. Why else would they tell a pollster who is not going to publish their name that they are not of either party?'

The biggest party out there right now is the anti-Trump party. That doesn't mean they all think like rmrd. Many may dislike "Identity politics" of the rmrd Dem party. Many of them might very well think highly of someone like Jeff Flake. After all, he wrote an anti-Trump book and is quitting the highly partisan Congress. Some probably voted for Obama and then for Trump and were disappointed by both, and those probably also think Republicans are often better for the economy.

Nothing in your post

rmrd0000 — Mon, 01 Oct 2018 17:06:45 +0000

In reply to You often talk as if self

Nothing in your post addresses the fact that Flake supports policies that the overwhelming majority of Democrats do not.

Flake doesn’t like Trump’s

rmrd0000 — Mon, 01 Oct 2018 16:22:40 +0000

In reply to Yes. Key fact is Republicans

Flake doesn’t like Trump’s style but supports most of the things Trump wants to do. Flake will vote for Kavanaugh at the end of the day unless something that he considers outrageous turns up in the investigation. The Kavanaugh anti-Democratic Party rant will not change his opinion. Democrats are better off supporting a Democrat.