dagblog - Comments for "The Deep Hurt"

Anne Applebaum today bringing

artappraiser — Sat, 16 Feb 2019 18:40:46 +0000

Anne Applebaum today bringing up the old quandarywhich reminds us how isolationism always sounds so dandy in theory--live and let live--right, but then you get the question--why didn't you do something when a whole bunch of people aren't let to live....

"Never again?" We say that, but don't believe it. Concentration camps in China are the latest incarnation of some old totalitarian ideas, and yet we are indifferent https://t.co/9YGrz9HgJP
— Anne Applebaum (@anneapplebaum) February 16, 2019

Because I write books about Soviet history, and because I often speak about them to U.S. or European audiences, I am frequently forced to confront the problem of Western indifference. Why, I am asked over and over, did British diplomats who knew about the man-made Ukrainian famine of 1932-1933 do nothing to stop it? The Catholic Church at that time was also aware that millions of Soviet citizens were dying because Joseph Stalin’s state had confiscated their food. Why did it not galvanize Europeans to send grain?

Many are intrigued and horrified, as am I, by the story of Walter Duranty, then the New York Times Moscow correspondent, who covered up the story of the Ukrainian famine, though he knew it was happening. Many are impressed when they read about Gareth Jones, the Welsh freelance reporter who told the truth about the famine but was not believed. So fascinating is the contrast between them that a new film (“Mr. Jones”) has been made about them, more than 80 years after Jones’s death.

Usually, when asked why Jones was ignored, or why the Vatican and the British foreign office kept silent, I explain that 1933 was also the year of Adolf Hitler’s rise in Germany, so newspaper editors were distracted. Diplomats were already worried they would soon need Stalin as an ally. “Realists” such as the French politician Édouard Herriot — he made a trip to Ukraine in August 1933 and declared that he had found not hunger but “a garden in full bloom” — wanted their countries to trade with Russia. Besides, Ukraine, a distant Soviet republic, was a place that seemed alien and uninteresting to people in London, Paris and New York, most of whom probably felt they couldn’t do much about people suffering there anyway.

The audiences I speak to are sometimes unsatisfied with these answers. They want to talk about the perfidy of the Left or the New York Times, or they want to blame the U.S. president at the time, Franklin D. Roosevelt. But blame is easy. Far more difficult, both for them and for me, is to admit something more profound: That precisely the same indifference, and the same cynicism, exist today.

Yes, the West looked the other way during the 1930s, when people were starving. But the West is also looking the other way in 2019, refusing to see the concentration camps in China’s Xinjiang province [....]

Who ya gonna believe...

PeraclesPlease — Sat, 16 Feb 2019 06:07:10 +0000

In reply to Interesting that Allen

Who ya gonna believe...

Blondie used to suggest sending all kids behind the Iron Curtain for a staycation, cuz in the end it'd be cheaper than all the deprogamming needed.

Being eddycated by 70's punk rockers - "Sheena is a gov lobbyist rocker now..."

Interesting that Allen

artappraiser — Sat, 16 Feb 2019 05:48:06 +0000

In reply to The Deep Hurt

Interesting that by 1965, Allen Ginsberg had given up on this explanation for all that is wrong with the world: perspective on the United States....as a global bully, enforcing its law upon the world. By just traveling a few places. Since you both travel, must have been the acid. Or Buddhism, or something. Or he just didn't survive long enough to be re-re-educated by Chomsky, Cockburn, et. al.

Already by Sept. 2018, an

artappraiser — Sat, 16 Feb 2019 05:34:49 +0000

In reply to An analyst who sounded quite

Already by Sept. 2018, an emptied country:

Venezuela crisis is 'on the scale of Syria,' UNHCR says https://t.co/Fzg6zWIILv
— Rasjomanny Puntorg (@Rasjomanny) September 21, 2018

I really don't think the world should just stand by when that happens outside of a massive natural disaster and say absolutely nothing like everything is hunky dory. I am fully supportive of other countries showing disapproval when that happens and basically saying: what the fuck is going on? why does it look like all your people feel they need to leave? I don't think peers labeling such a leader as illegitimate is a bridge too far, rather, it's the right thing to do.

Edit to add: It was in March 2018 when UNHCR felt the status of those fleeing should be changed from "Economic Migrant" to "Refugee".

UNHCR recommends for the first time that designation of those fleeing Venezuela be changed from “economic migrants” to “refugees” https://t.co/l9Fas2opZf
— Latin America Center (@ACLatAm) March 14, 2018

But then I am not of the opinion that the CIA or the USA hegemon influences UNHCR.(If they do, somebody should have checked out that Angelina Jolie took on CIA agent movie roles before they gave her the Special Envoy position. Be kinda blatantly dumb, no?)

I am impressed with your

A Guy Called LULU — Fri, 15 Feb 2019 03:44:37 +0000

In reply to I could be wrong, but given

I am impressed with your first paragraph. You are far closer to the mark than usual. One thing I want to make clear though is that I know what kind of response I could expect from you and PP and how you would allude to it long into the future if I were to link to something published by RT, whether good reporting or not, to make a point. What the article I posted from RT, if I ever were to do so, actually said would be irrelevant to you as usual. As irrelevant to you as the ideas in the subject article of this thread which you have not referred to at all.

Further I have seen him express excitement about Libertarian and third party candidates that express an isolationist attitude and he seems willing to ignore other non-liberal parts of their agenda if they do so, including any racist tendencies.

That would have been when PP and I both argued that Rand Paul and Ron Paul brought some important issues to the debates which were therefore better because of it. I certainly didn't, and I don't think PP did either, think they would be a good choice for President.

Your third paragraph is crap in several ways but is right in the case of the likes of Kristol:

Those looking for his votes really have to do more than apologize or say they were wrong, they have to prove they've reformed to a different way of thinking.

I missed Kristol's apology. Did he actually make one? Are you saying that he apologized for being a warmongering jerk? Has he apologized for anything? Are you saying his world view has evolved into something we should follow this time? Is Kristol saying that? Is he no longer a neocon, to simplify the point? Is the Martingale gambling scheme a smart way to run foreign policy? Is being a Never-Trumper enough to move him even a single notch above cretin? I pointed out a propagandistic lie he told just the other day on the same damned subject of war crimes. You could have directly corrected me then if you had a defense of what he said. Yes, he will have to prove to me that he has reformed to a new way of thinking before I would agree with anyone who suggested he should be listened to. Kristol's mistakes, which were based on a well documented ideology, were not small and were not inconsequential. Maybe you really think he has been right all along but are you actually suggesting that his ideology that guided his evangelism has changed? I don't see the evidence and until I do, Fuck Bill Kristol.

Blackface is not a litmus

rmrd0000 — Fri, 15 Feb 2019 03:33:00 +0000

In reply to I could be wrong, but given

[Deleted - not going to hijack another thread with identity politics - PP]

I could be wrong, but given

artappraiser — Fri, 15 Feb 2019 01:14:44 +0000

In reply to I thought Democrats opposed

I could be wrong, but given the reference to Biden, what I read Lulu meaning by "coup" is not regarding any possible future military action, but support for the U.S. led international effort to get Maduro to give up power. By not recognizing him as the legitimate winner of the elections and sanctions etc. And probably also meaning covert support for Maduro's enemies. And that to him most Dems are a big fail on this.

I actually see you alike in that Lulu's tribe has "never forgive, never forget" litmus tests at least as strict as yours. His is about "meddling" in other countries, and he has many times voiced that very few Dem candidates have ever been pure enough for his standards. Further I have seen him express excitement about Libertarian and third party candidates that express an isolationist attitude and he seems willing to ignore other non-liberal parts of their agenda if they do so, including any racist tendencies.

Your tribe has tests about all manner of decades-old racist activity. His tests for things like 15-yr. old support for the Iraq war ("fuck Bill Kristol"), late 1980's involvement in Iran Contra, early 1970's support for the Vietnam war, or just generally believing the CIA. Those looking for his votes really have to do more than apologize or say they were wrong, they have to prove they've reformed to a different way of thinking. Both don't seem to trust that people can change nor that they can be welcomed to be on your side on other things but must be shunned because of not passing the test.

Litmus tests work in parliamentary systems, because the coalitions and negotiating away of principles aren't present during the election. But they are never going to help when there are two big tent parties and lots of voters who put a single issue uber alles.

Finally someone else

PeraclesPlease — Thu, 14 Feb 2019 18:19:55 +0000

In reply to This is really a positive

Finally someone else recognizes that french fries are a vegetable (not the catsup)

This is really a positive

ocean-kat — Thu, 14 Feb 2019 16:55:19 +0000

In reply to (No subject)

This is really a positive change. A diet with less meat and more vegetables is much more healthy. Perhaps if this so called "crisis" continues long enough the whole country might become vegetarian. Also there's been a lot of talk about the obesity epidemic. It was Michelle Obama's signature issue. But I think we'd have to admit that for all her work the initiative failed. Maduro has seem incredible success combating the obesity epidemic in Venezuela.

I thought Democrats opposed

rmrd0000 — Thu, 14 Feb 2019 16:49:02 +0000

In reply to Every God damned one of them

I thought Democrats opposed military action

https://www.yahoo.com/news/u-congress-wont-support-military-intervention-venezuela-engel-162834977--sector.html