dagblog - Comments for "Amid the Kale and Corn, Fears of White Supremacy at the Farmers’ Market"

Any way the idea that we

ocean-kat — Sun, 25 Aug 2019 01:39:37 +0000

Any way the idea that we might become friends or even view each other with mutual respect disappeared years ago. While I find your constant focus on nothing but racism tedious I could deal with it if you engaged in serious dialog and didn't turn my arguments into strawmen.

That you can find a pundit

ocean-kat — Sun, 25 Aug 2019 01:10:34 +0000

In reply to Sigh

That you can find a pundit who wrote an article that agrees with you is meaningless. I come here for serious discussion. I don't come here to simply post a few links to pundits that agree with me while you post a few who agree with you. What this means is that you are in fact incapable of answering any of my questions or making any serious arguments to challenge my arguments.

You don’t make friends by

rmrd0000 — Sun, 25 Aug 2019 00:58:09 +0000

In reply to Tip: you don't make news

You don’t make friends by using the term pity olympics and suggesting people with opposing views are uneducated and not well-read

Sigh

rmrd0000 — Sun, 25 Aug 2019 00:56:06 +0000

In reply to I'm well enough read about

Sigh

From ABC News

From 'BBQ Becky' to 'Golfcart Gail,' list of unnecessary 911 calls made on blacks continues to grow

https://abcnews.go.com/US/bbq-becky-golfcart-gail-list-unnecessary-911-c...

I have read that the area

ocean-kat — Sun, 25 Aug 2019 00:50:37 +0000

In reply to I'm well enough read about

I have read that the area where the bbq happened was a designed area for bbq-ing, so I think oceankat was going a little over the top here, too. But later he admitted he was doing that to show you up as spinning and abusing the story.

According to KRON, an Oakland Parks and Recreation map shows that the area is not a designated charcoal area, but is an area where portable non-charcoal grills can be used. Lake Merritt has three areas with stationary charcoal grills for public use, according to the map. But residents and officials told the news station that the rule is not typically followed or enforced, and is not a police matter.

https://heavy.com/news/2018/05/jennifer-schulte-bbq-becky/

It was an area where non-charcoal grills can be used to BBQ, not charcoal grills. There's a reason for that differentiation. Non-charcoal grills use propane and stone or stone like materials that the owner doesn't dump on the ground. People dump used charcoal on the ground so they can take their grill home to use again. I continued the discussion on this trivial subject to show rmrd as spinning etc. But I always try to be as accurate as possible. From your link, " After cops made contact with the group of people barbecuing and advised them of what had occurred and the applicable violation for using the charcoal, the men agreed to pack up and leave and the incident was closed."

I imagine these neighborhoods as the type where they BBQ only in their own back yards and not in common shared spaces

That's probably mostly true. When they have a large group and want to BBQ in parks they probably use the stationary grills. That doesn't create problems since, again, you can't dump the charcoal on the ground. A better funded park might have more of these stationary grills or more likely poorer areas might have a greater number of people wanting to use them. If these suburban women think about it at all I think they likely like the regulations against charcoal grills. They may not realize it's a health hazard but you can see the used charcoal on the ground and no one wants their children playing in it.

I'm well enough read about

artappraiser — Sun, 25 Aug 2019 00:08:34 +0000

In reply to Sigh

I'm well enough read about the "BBQ Becky" story that it was not about police harassment of blacks, as no citations or arrests were made that day.also that the 911 dispatcher was rather dismissive about "Becky's" concerns.

It may or may not have been about Becky's irrational fear of people with black skin as a tribe of cultural otherness.To me, she probably was judging people with black skin almost like rmrd seems to fear people with white skin. Maybe she wasn't, though, there are also indications that she may have just been batshit crazy and color of skin had nothing to do with what she did.

And I think the Smith family was doing the right thing in using the buzz about what happened to hold a "stop the hate" event inclusive for all a year later. And I think you are doing the wrong thing by using the buzz to promote the idea of fear and loathing of the other and to beat the drum about police abuse of which there was none in this particular case (except maybe perhaps in being dismissive of crazy citizen "Becky".)

Furthermore, I have read that the area where the bbq happened was a designed area for bbq-ing, so I think oceankat was going a little over the top here, too. But later he admitted he was doing that to show you up as spinning and abusing the story.

Let's not forget that the "Becky" story actually had little to do with the thread until I used a parody from The Root of "Becky's" paranoid call to 911 to compare to farmer's market vendors researching one of their fellow vendors and finding out that they showed interest in white supremacist websites and then absurdly fearing that this couple was really there to bomb them or something rather than sell their vegetables.

So in neither of these stories does fear and loathing of the police tribe come in BUT SURE ENOUGH YOU'VE GOT TO BRING IT UP for the 1,000th time

Since it got so off thread because of you taking my use of a parody from The Root, I think one interesting result is oceankat's mention that the "Becky" story may be a class issue about different segregated neighborhood behavior styles and culture is a very interesting one. Especially as Republican suburban women's votes helped the Democrats win Congress in November and I imagine these neighborhoods as the type where they BBQ only in their own back yards and not in common shared spaces and some of those very same women might not like the idea of being called racist for not liking the idea of BBQ parties in public parks. Though they may not call 911 about such a gathering, they might be in favor of their local park authorities removing designated cooking areas in public parks but would not like that preference to mean they are for race war.

The more I read your obsessions, on the other hand, the more I think you are a fucking crazed segregationist full of fear of the other and a desire to fight rather than promote ways to get along with other people. Do you realize that you come off exactly like "Becky" here quite often? Yoiu can't ever even seem to be friendly with anyone on Dagblog. It's coming off more and more like you think we are all racists and need your preaching. If you don't intend that, the quality of your communication sucks.

Tip: you don't make news

artappraiser — Sun, 25 Aug 2019 00:04:41 +0000

In reply to Sigh

Tip: you don't make news buddy friends by continually sighing at them like they are stupid and need some blacksplainin'

the underlying issue in the

ocean-kat — Sat, 24 Aug 2019 23:52:28 +0000

In reply to Sigh

the underlying issue in the BBQ Becky has always been the involvement of the police.

For you the only point is racism and accusations of racism. For me the issue is about more than racism. It's also about the Tragedy of the Commons and the degradation of public parks. It's a more complex story that requires a more nuanced discussion. It's always and only about racism for you.

I repeatedly point out to you that the park services did not consider this a police matter.

These regulations exist in most public parks. In upscale white neighborhoods restrictions on use of charcoal grills are more likely to be enforced. Either the police enforce them or there are park personnel that enforce them. In poor neighborhoods, either black or white, the police are often to overwhelmed by more serious crime to enforce park regulations. There is no funds to hire park personnel to enforce the regulations

Some times politicians make political decisions to defuse tensions. In this case the sheer numbers of people disobeying the law make it difficult or impossible to enforce the law. That doesn't mean the law is wrong. I think I've made a convincing case why the regulations restricting charcoal grills in common areas are good and rational public health regulations. You have not even attempted to dispute those arguments.

The simple fact is that this park, and most parks in several countries, have regulations restricting charcoal grills to certain areas. You need to address why you think by far the vast majority of parks have these regulations. Frankly I don't think you know and you're unwilling to even consider my explanations because it disputes the racism accusation you want to spread. But honest dialog requires you to address that question that I've asked several times. You have still not answered.

You pointed out that protesting unjust laws is a valuable American tradition. But you have not explained why you think regulation of charcoal grills is an unjust law. We all agree that some laws are unjust but when you claim a law is unjust you need to make the case why and how they are unjust. You brought up the subject of unjust laws yet you have still not explained why regulation of charcoal grills is unjust. Understandable because they are not unjust and you only made that nonsense argument to try to get a "win."

The result is the rest of your complaint sounds like gibberish.

If my arguments were gibberish you could easily debunk them. But you haven't even attempted to address them.

Any honest dialog requires you to address these questions. But you're incapable of addressing them and you're uninterested in honest dialog.

You feel that the black people at the barbecue are destroying the planet.

That is a lie. You often lie because all you care about is winning the debate.

Your concern is insane given that the Amazon is on fire.

Is your argument that the only time we should discuss the Tragedy of the Commons and environment degradation is when it gets as bad as the fires in the Amazon? This has been a subject of conversation since 1833. By your standard it should never have been brought up. But then the Tragedy of the Commons has nothing to do with racism so of course you have no interest in the subject. Likely you have no idea what it is and you didn't bother to educate yourself by looking at my link.

not a day goes by without an incident involving race.

Many important things happen every day. Things that are important may not happen every day yet they are never the less important. I realize that the only thing that interests you are what you can claim are racist incidents but you're not the only one here. Some of us have other interests.

Sigh

rmrd0000 — Sat, 24 Aug 2019 23:06:41 +0000

In reply to Their is no evidence of

Sigh

ocean-kat, the underlying issue in the BBQ Becky has always been the involvement of the police. The concern is that police can escalate the situation. The risk of escalation is not a factor for you because you do not feel at risk. I provided a link to a black journalist detailing the anxiety he felt at being stopped by police.

You and AA cannot be as well-read as you claim if you are unfamiliar with harassment blacks feel at the hands of police. You focus on what you perceive as the rules. You feel that the black people at the barbecue are destroying the planet. Your concern is insane given that the Amazon is on fire.

You don’t care about the risk to the black family as long as the rules are obeyed. I repeatedly point out to you that the park services did not consider this a police matter. The dispatcher and the officer felt that Becky was the problem. You truly sound like an idiot.

Calling the police was not the appropriate action. You instinct would have been to call the police despite the risk. The result is the rest of your complaint sounds like gibberish.

Multiple jurisdictions are trying to work to get white people to stop making nonsense call. The BBQ Becky case is used as a prime example.

BTW, your complaint about my talking about race is a common one. However, if you are well-read and keep up with the news, not a day goes by without an incident involving race. The NYT has an excellent series, the 1619 Project, that deals with how slavery impacts our lives today. This serious discussion is driving Conservatives batshit crazy. Conservatives hate talking about race. Democrats running for the Presidency know that racism is an issue that has to be faced head on. Race is an issue that should be discussed frequently.

Their is no evidence of

ocean-kat — Sat, 24 Aug 2019 22:47:02 +0000

In reply to ocean-kat you are having an

Their is no evidence of damage to the park.

Rats mostly come out at night, germs are microscopic, disease vectors mostly can't be seem, and the prevalence of disease in an area is discovered by a statistical analysis. They may not be apparent with a casual glance but thinking people look beyond appearance to understand the world. Sometimes you do that to but mostly your agenda gets in the way of thoughtful analysis.

" Between 1589–92,[1] the Italian scientist Galileo Galilei (then professor of mathematics at the University of Pisa) is said to have dropped two spheres of different masses from the Leaning Tower of Pisa to demonstrate that their time of descent was independent of their mass" No one does that experiment anymore because the experiment has been done so often the result has been undisputedly proven. No one tests whether mice and rats carry disease. The studies have been done so often we know. No one tests whether increasing the rodent population increases disease. No one tests whether and increase in the food supply increases the rodent population. No one does those studies anymore because the the results are know. Any study done in the area will show increased rodent population and increased disease especially in children playing in that park. No one pays to collect that evidence because the studies have been done so often we already know.

The park service allows an annual barbecue at the spot.

The park service apparently doesn’t think the rule is that important.

There is no doubt the public health officials explained to the politicians decades ago why the regulations restricting charcoal grills were important. That's why the regulations were in effect. You will see signs in most parks clearly stating the regulations concerning charcoal grills. Those signs aren't cheap. Politicians passed budgets that allocated money to buy those signs based on public health officials recommendations. I'm sure the public health officials hired now explained to the politicians once again why the regulations were important. The politicians today decided the issue was too wrought with political difficulties to take the health officials recommendations.

This is clearly not an echo chamber discussion as the bulk of the discussion is a disagreement with you. Arta has not weighed in on most of my arguments.