dagblog - Comments for "Being a Good Friend to Israel"

I don't know about you, but I

Orlando — Fri, 04 Jun 2010 04:52:29 +0000

In reply to Genghis is right: I'm more

I don't know about you, but I was too busy watching E! to give a shit.

Genghis is right: I'm more

acanuck — Thu, 03 Jun 2010 19:39:49 +0000

In reply to The good news about history

Genghis is right: I'm more pessimistic than either of you. I too was elated when the Soviet empire collapsed -- not because it was so evil (it had gotten a bit less evil over time) but because of the "peace dividend" that everyone quite rightly expected. Disarmament, smaller militaries, cures for cancer, education and clean water for everyone. How did we allow our "leaders" to screw up all that potential for good?

The good news about history

Doctor Cleveland — Thu, 03 Jun 2010 17:34:44 +0000

In reply to Nudge away, my

The good news about history is the bad news: things change. You don't always expect them.

I grew up expecting that I would die before the Berlin Wall fell. When I was a teenager, I more or less expected that Nelson Mandela would die in prison. I had no reason to think differently. I certainly didn't expect to see an African-American elected President as soon as I did. (I was counting on another, younger, person getting there first. I'm still a little upset that my guy didn't make it.)

Sure, the last ten years have been full very different historical events. September 11 did damage that won't be undone soon, and we're probably living through the ecological death of part of the Gulf. But those sharp, sudden shocks have brought good news, too. And I dont think I'll ever get entirely over the experience of the late 80s and early 90s, seeing the world changing suddenly for the better.

Nudge away, my

Michael Wolraich — Thu, 03 Jun 2010 16:55:28 +0000

In reply to True, there are thousands who

Nudge away, my friend.

Perhaps I am less pessimistic then you after all. Conflicts have a habit of unpredictability--enduring for decades beyond what anyone imagined and then suddenly collapsing more rapidly than anyone thought possible.

True, there are thousands who

acanuck — Thu, 03 Jun 2010 08:50:25 +0000

In reply to Sorry, I wasn't under the

True, there are thousands who thoughtlessly condemn Israel and thousands of others who thoughtlessly support it. I've put more thought into my positions on international relations than most of my friends and family think is healthy, but I think most people err in the other direction.

My opposition to senseless war and conflict is deep-rooted, beginning in Vietnam. That war too appeared intractable, but ended when both sides recognized they had nothing more to gain. The Israeli-Arab conflict will also end, though probably not in my lifetime. All I can do is nudge the solution along in whatever tiny way I can. That I cannot see any positive results is irrelevant.

I may have made too much of

Michael Wolraich — Thu, 03 Jun 2010 01:26:37 +0000

In reply to Yes, of course, the Israelis

I may have made too much of your drunken friend analogy. But what exactly is "high-level diplomacy" anyway? Hillary Clinton doesn't have magic powers of diplomatic persuasion. A behind-the-scenes lecture wouldn't accomplish much. Government-level sanctions would never happen. The U.S. could and probably should threaten to withdraw aid, but I think that Israel would just tell us to go fuck ourselves. They don't need our aid anymore.

Think about it this way. An Israeli prime minister who spits in America's eye won't suffer much in the polls, as Bibi aptly demonstrated a few months ago. But an Israeil prime minister who is perceived to undermine Israel's security will lose his government in the event of a successful Hamas attack.

Sorry, I wasn't under the

Michael Wolraich — Thu, 03 Jun 2010 01:10:42 +0000

In reply to Genghis, I don't for a moment

Sorry, I wasn't under the impression that you had remained silent on this matter. ;)

But seriously, your test is a poor one. I'm not terribly concerned about my soul or yours. If moral condemnation is indeed futile, then it amounts to little more than cluck-clucking to make ourselves feel all warm and righteous inside. I don't mean that hypothetically. I think that there are plenty of people who thoughtlessly condemn Israel and other international pariahs for precisely that reason--in the same way that so many courageous American freethinkers condemned Islamic opposition to depictions of Mohammed.

Yes, of course, the Israelis

Doctor Cleveland — Thu, 03 Jun 2010 00:19:46 +0000

In reply to Speaking of humility, let me

Yes, of course, the Israelis have to decide for themselves, as any country would. I never meant to imply otherwise, and I'm sorry if I did.

I was thinking about high-level diplomacy, rather than an international pressure campaign. And I certainly believe that Israel must be addressed as an ally, rather than as a client. I certainly didn't mean to imply otherwise.

I understand that Israel's national self-perception is grounded in the fact that has very real enemies, many of whom are startlingly malevolent. And I understand that they feel besieged.

I don't think the South Africa example matches up so well, partly for the reasons Genghis mentions and partly because Israel does have legitimate security concerns. So the South African case was cleaner-cut from the outside, and more about power-sharing than survival. If the ANC leadership or other major anti-apartheid parties had been talking about driving white South Africans out of the country by force, the parallel would be more apt. Being told that your country has no right to exist doesn't put you in a bargaing mood.

A blockade-running boat

acanuck — Thu, 03 Jun 2010 00:02:02 +0000

In reply to I don't think that it will

A blockade-running boat manned by American Jews? Excellent idea, Genghis! Actually, I suspect its occupants would be treated as badly or worse than the current batch. But yeah, it would raise some interesting questions among the thinking public.

Genghis, I don't for a moment

acanuck — Wed, 02 Jun 2010 23:57:08 +0000

In reply to Speaking of humility, let me

Genghis, I don't for a moment underestimate Israel's perception of itself. And I'd put my own cynicism up against anyone's. It's that cynicism that persuades me that the world can no longer leave Israelis as the sole arbiters of the rightness or wrongness of their policies. It won't work; they no longer even ask the question. "The IDF is the most moral military in the world!" How could anyone think otherwise? White phosphorus and aerial flechettes aside.

The status quo is barbaric and untenable, no matter how comfortable Israelis have become with it. Maybe international sanctions won't change anyone's mind -- that's not really the test. Fact is, remaining silent and passive is no longer an option. The rest of us have to take a moral stance, or else we're complicit.