dagblog - Comments for "Israelis Need an Attitude Adjustment, but Sanctions Won't Help Them Get One"

I just read Kristof's Israel

Michael Wolraich — Fri, 02 Jul 2010 00:28:02 +0000

In reply to Israelis Need an Attitude Adjustment, but Sanctions Won't Help Them Get One

I just read Kristof's Israel column. This exactly the kind of article I'm advocating. There are no condemnations of "Zionist imperialism" or Nazi comparisons, he makes no generalizations about Israelis, and he doesn't even mention religion. The column is just a straightforward account of the shocking contrasts between the lives of Palestinians in the West Bank and their Israeli neighbors. It begins and ends with simple yet devastating assessments: "The occupation is morally repugnant," and "We must not lose sight of the most basic fact about the occupation: It’s wrong."

An article like this is much more difficult for supporters of Israeli policy to dismiss than a derisive attack on the Israeli people or its government. We need more articles like this, particularly from widely respected voices, to break through to the conscience of the Israelis.

I'd seen the TPM article and

acanuck — Wed, 30 Jun 2010 21:35:07 +0000

In reply to Acanuck, if you haven't read

I'd seen the TPM article and rec'd it, Genghis. Avishai's analysis is devastating, and dovetails with so much else coming out of Israel that I'm persuaded it's not a case of another individual opinion-maker losing hope. People like Avishai are just reflecting a real, perceptible shift in Israeli society. Josh Marshall has rightly highlighted the post on TPM's main page.

I hadn't followed the link to Procaccia until you pointed it out, but I think Avishai caught the satire. His previous sentence is "For ordinary liberals, there are straws in the wind that, when they land, are breaking backs." I think he's citing Procaccia as another liberal who has lost faith.

Do you ever glance at the reader comments that follow any halfway reasonable article posted by Haaretz? I sometimes read a random sample. Scariest shit imaginable.

Acanuck, if you haven't read

Michael Wolraich — Wed, 30 Jun 2010 20:11:22 +0000

In reply to Israelis Need an Attitude Adjustment, but Sanctions Won't Help Them Get One

Acanuck, if you haven't read this piece at TPM, you should:

http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/2010/06/30/israels_press_political_...

That said, Avishal completely missed the satire of the Uriel Procaccia article he linked to, somewhat undermining his point.

Didn't mean to rant

acanuck — Thu, 24 Jun 2010 15:02:22 +0000

In reply to I'm a bit surprised, too,

Didn't mean to rant quite that much, Genghis. I do appreciate that you are coming around a bit to my point of view. Maybe not to actual BDS, but to the utility of external pressure.

For example, I'm sure the symbolic week-long boycott of Israeli exports and imports by Swedish dockwockers caught the government's attention. And you'll surely agree this is an Israeli government whose attention needs to be caught. Think mule and 2-by-four.

I'm a bit surprised, too,

acanuck — Thu, 24 Jun 2010 06:57:51 +0000

In reply to Hey acanuck, I've been

I'm a bit surprised, too, that international pressure over the flotilla raid (and the siege as a whole) hasn't dissipated. It helps that Israel has overreacted in (1) killing unarmed people, (2) trying to tar the aid activists as terrorists, (3) refusing an independent inquiry, (4) labeling onetime close ally Turkey a wing of al-Qa'ida, and (5) tacitly endorsing a string of racist videos. I probably missed something, but you get the point. The incident has been mishandled from A-Z.

The turning points in national or civil-rights struggles are often bloody ones: the Sharpeville massacre, the Birmingham bombings, Bloody Sunday, Kent State ... . Operation Cast Lead should have been such a point as far as Gaza was concerned, but maybe the world is so jaded about the loss of Palestinian lives that nine Turks were needed for the glass to overflow. It's sad, but a peaceful diversion to Ashdod would not have caught the world's attention.

As for the blockade, its ostensible purpose was to weaken Hamas, but it's had the opposite effect. Continuing it, even in "eased" form, is counterproductive. So end it. Cut a prisoner swap to free Schalit. Open up the border crossings (and the port and the airport) in exchange for the stationing of international inspectors to prevent weapons smuggling. Free the Palestinian Authority to form a reconciliation government authorized to negotiate borders and all other outstanding issues. Put the resulting deal to referendums on both sides. Problem solved.

Letting coriander, pencils and toilet paper into Gaza is a sop. Palestinians want and need the freedom to travel, to get crucial medical care, to earn a living rather than rely on handouts, to make, grow and export stuff, to study abroad when they win international scholarships -- to be treated as human beings. Three full generations have lived without those basic rights. That's too long.

I endorse your last sentence: focusing on Palestinian suffering and Israeli wrongdoing are both necessary. Especially in the States, where 87 out of 100 senators are willing to go on record as approving anything Israel chooses to do.

Really? Does that really reflect the feelings of their constituents? A poll found 49% of Americans blame the aid activists for the Mavi Marmara violence. A minority blamed Israel and over 30% said they didn't know. All things considered, that's an elating statistic. For once, less than half the population reflexively bought the Israeli version of events. It's just a start, but I think even Netanyahu can sense the tide is shifting.

Hey acanuck, I've been

Michael Wolraich — Wed, 23 Jun 2010 19:42:17 +0000

In reply to At least we agree that

Hey acanuck, I've been mulling over my response to Israel's decision to ease the blockade. I'm still not sure what that means, but obviously, the protesters' violence (and sacrifice), along with the worldwide condemnation, has had more effect than I predicted. I still feel that real progress requires an attitude change in Israel and that the best way to achieve that is to focus attention on Palestinian suffering rather than Israeli wrongdoing, but perhaps these approaches are not mutually exclusive.

At least we agree that

acanuck — Wed, 16 Jun 2010 02:52:41 +0000

In reply to I did not advocate silence. I

At least we agree that Israelis need an attitude adjustment. You're right, that will take years. So the rest of us have to focus on the short term: ending the siege and, ultimately, the occupation. Since there's virtually no pressure from inside Israel to do it, and the Palestinians lack any lever of power, and AIPAC has the entire U.S. government scared silly, rest-of-the-world opinion will have to do the trick by presenting Israel with a stark cost-benefit analysis. Will that happen? Western governments will do everything in their power to avoid taking a stand. Will it work if it does happen? We'll see, but it's the last bullet we've got, so it better work.

I did not advocate silence. I

Michael Wolraich — Tue, 15 Jun 2010 23:52:57 +0000

In reply to "And slowly, though it may

I did not advocate silence. I advocated for a certain type of rhetoric and against another type of rhetoric, not because it will make Israelis mad but because it won't make them change. Change is what we both want, no?

So you can say time's up and talk about collectivist punishment, but I'm arguing that it simply won't work. How many years will your solution take?

"And slowly, though it may

acanuck — Tue, 15 Jun 2010 22:00:37 +0000

In reply to Israelis Need an Attitude Adjustment, but Sanctions Won't Help Them Get One

"And slowly, though it may take years, the Israelis will relax their guard and learn to feel compassion again." Really, Genghis? Do you have a ballpark figure for how many more years Palestinians are expected to suck it up while waiting for Israelis to be in a good mood? Another half-century? Another three or four generations?"

Time's up. There is such a thing as international law, and collective punishment of an occupied population is a war crime. Operation Cast Lead and the flotilla raid have finally awakened world opinion, and the issue can no longer stay on the back burner.

I get it that that the vast majority of Jewish Israelis back their hard-line government. So your advice is -- what? -- don't pressure them or insult them; there's no telling what they'll do if you get them mad. Genghis, we've seen what they do when they get mad. They're mad a lot. No, I don't think silence is the solution.