dagblog - Comments for "9-11: Nine Years On "

and the shoe banging. always

Elusive Trope — Sat, 11 Sep 2010 23:33:30 +0000

In reply to You and Krushchev, always

and the shoe banging. always with the shoe banging.

Turkey is the miracle nation

Richard Day — Sat, 11 Sep 2010 18:01:43 +0000

In reply to 9-11: Nine Years On

Turkey is the miracle nation in all of this, that is for sure. A secular if not sometimes cruel government.

All I know is that there are one billion Muslims in the world and a billion and a half Christians.

We better learn to live together.

You and Krushchev, always

quinn esq — Sat, 11 Sep 2010 16:38:31 +0000

In reply to Islam is imperialism, not the

You and Krushchev, always with the burying.

All you say is cool, but

David Seaton — Sat, 11 Sep 2010 16:11:03 +0000

In reply to I just think there is a real

All you say is cool, but they've done more damage to the USA than any enemy ever has and we have been fighting and losing two wars with them for nine years (that is longer than we've ever fought anybody) and we have spent over a trillion dollars and they have spent peanuts. They have struck a nearly terminal blow to America's military prestige, which was so painstakingly rebuilt after Vietnam. I could go on and on.

What I don't think is that they want to "conquer the world". We are an empire and I think they are an anti-imperialist movement and they want to kick us out of their space. And by the form they and we are showing, I imagine they'll succeed.

Islam is imperialism, not the

Rootman — Sat, 11 Sep 2010 15:55:38 +0000

In reply to 9-11: Nine Years On

Islam is imperialism, not the opposite of it. Just not very effective imperialism anymore. It's own young women will bury it.

I just think there is a real

quinn esq — Sat, 11 Sep 2010 15:25:20 +0000

In reply to I'm not sure I've expressed

I just think there is a real danger in attributing too much power to militant or fundamentalist Islam. I see very very little evidence that this wing of Islam is more powerful than Communism, for instance, and think that buying this storyline may turn out to be the greatest victory the Hard Right Military-types in recent years.

Look. The Soviet Union was massive. Incredible. Developed weapons of extraordinary power. Armies, subs, bombers. Nuclear power. Went into space. You name it. Like us, they stole a whack of scientific knowledge/scientists, but to compare their record to, say, Iran's, is farcical. And yes yes, they - like us - got driven out of Afghanistan. Big whoop. In world-historical terms, Afghanistan is going precisely nowhere. Whereas the Soviets changed the map of the world.

Or take Communist China.

As for being willing to die for a cause and sacrifice, are you kidding David? Come ON man, this is your own history, as a man of the Left we're talking about here. It's like you're running some Islamofever! What about the wild-eyed fanatics we faced in the Vietnam war, that the Russians threw at the Germans, and that populated pretty much every single war of lefty-led national liberation going, for 70 years or so? You might want to say the Communists fed off of local nationalism, but... HELLO?! That's also what Islam is feeding off. e.g. In Afghanistan.

As for your bottomline, that it's about throwing us out of their space - so WHAT? So were ALL those wars of national and regional and continental liberation. That says nothing about the extra sticking power or imagination of Islamic-backed efforts. I mean, so far they've managed to blow up a few buildings and buses and trains and such, and run guerilla operations that have dragged us out long enough that e no longer feel occupation is worthwhile. That's it? And outside Iran, how many countries do they even run? And how long does anyone think they'll last in power?

To compare this to the Soviet Union and Communist China and the dozens of 3rd World socialist/communist nations there were at one point, and the power of the DOMESTIC parties of the Left in the West, including their ability to force through enormous social welfare changes such as the New Deal, strikes me as absurd. No worse, it's complete malarkey.

FDR, driven by an agenda from the political Left, rebuilt an entire nation. A bunch of extremists blew up the WTC. Therefore, they are the more powerful force. Nonsense meets Stilts.

I'm not sure I've expressed

David Seaton — Sat, 11 Sep 2010 14:16:27 +0000

In reply to I think you vastly

I'm not sure I've expressed myself that well. What the Islamic movement has done is to harness and give form to the very real anti-imperialist movement which was orphaned when the USSR went down. This is part of what Putin meant when he said that the collapse of the USSR was a "geopolitical disaster". The irony of course is that the USA and Israel encouraged and financed the Islamic movement: the Israelis as a tool against Nasser and then Arafat who were aligned with the USSR and the USA against the USSR in Afghanistan. The Balkan wars also gave the movement focus and prestige.

We now have lost one war with them and are in the process of losing a second. They have done this with little or no money, while we have spent trillions over nine years. This is certainly a movement which leads men and women to sacrifice themselves for a cause.

It is also worth noting that the 9-11 terrorists were mostly university graduates, this is not about helpless, hopeless,ignorant or illiterate young men. What the Islamic movement does crosses class and national lines.In this way it is more powerful than Marxist-Leninism ever was, because there is no superpower behind it. It is about throwing us out of their space.

Another Irony is how a movement that is some 1,400 years old has been able to get more use out our invention, the Internet, than we have. That alone should prove how deep all these waters run.

I think you vastly

quinn esq — Fri, 10 Sep 2010 23:59:49 +0000

In reply to 9-11: Nine Years On

I think you vastly overestimate the strength of a Islam, David, and its more fundamentalist form in particular. This piece reminded me of the way Rightwingers used to write about Communism, about how Communists never changed their spots. It was as though the usual rules of humanity didn't apply. Islam already has shown it can take on many forms, and most of them line up pretty comfortably with a world of universities, consumer goods, mass retailing, mass media, "modernization," etc.

As you note, capitalism and the modern world have eroded the Christian church, male/female differences, hierarchical societies of every stripe, tribes and their elders, nations, races, you name it. So, people who think Islam is some magically powerful religion - stronger than Christianity for instance - I just regard as.... ignorant. A bit too caught up in the hype of the day. Not wanting to be rude or anything, but Christianity survived Islam quite well thanks, and then ate the entire world thanks, and is still kicking around. Just because we're not used to seeing deeply barbarian religious figures within our own tradition doesn't mean the mullahs are somehow uniquely stronger. I've met a fair number of these guys. They're not made of some magically sterner stuff. More like... these guys and their world were largely irrelevant to the modern world, which will now apply its usual tools to chew it up.

And the fact that the fundamentalist wing of Islam has, in places, become allied to national liberation struggles, or various class or ethnic struggles, does not say to me that this is somehow the likely winner of the Islamic flag. Just look at Afghanistan. We - the US and the West - had to go in and pump billions into the Fundamentalists for them to grow to their present status. In and of itself, Fundamentalist Islam has an extraordinarily poor capability to deal with the needs and demands of the world today. That is, it only looks like the top contender and a growing force in the world's most obviously failed states. Anywhere else, it looks - and is - fairly nutbar.

As for oil, I think the discussion around oil "running out" and the West facing some massive turmoil is a bit of a trainwreck discussion as well. e.g. Both China and India are also dependent on that oil. So at least enlarge the picture to paint them in. How does that change things?

That is one meaty post,

acanuck — Fri, 10 Sep 2010 23:09:43 +0000

In reply to 9-11: Nine Years On

That is one meaty post, David, and one of your best. Shorter Seaton (if you'll permit): Those in the West lusting for a death-match Clash of Civilizations should be careful what they wish for. There's no guarantee "our side" wins.