dagblog - Comments for "Fascism is coming to the USA... Literally (no kidding)"

Howdy NCD ...That all sounds

oldenGoldenDecoy — Thu, 16 Sep 2010 13:52:48 +0000

In reply to David, I await your post at

Howdy NCD ...

That all sounds real interesting. Why not join the rest of us here as an active blogger and that way you can put all of that in a blog for the rest of us to respond to. It's not that hard. Just follow the easy instructions:

http://dagblog.com/user/register

I hope to see you soon.

~OGD~

More of a recipe for

Rootman — Thu, 16 Sep 2010 11:29:58 +0000

In reply to You weave an interesting

More of a recipe for socialism than fascism.

You weave an interesting

Obey — Thu, 16 Sep 2010 07:14:20 +0000

In reply to Fascism is coming to the USA... Literally (no kidding)

You weave an interesting thread, David. But this premise -

"if there are indeed limits to growth, the political underpinnings of our world fall apart"

is wrong. The idea that economic growth has up until now been shared across the social strata, and that is what has maintained stability, is belied by the facts. Median wages in the US hit their peak in 1973 (in real terms) and have fallen even as the economy more than doubled in output, with nary a peep from the workers. The elites at this point are just testing the limits of the rate at which they can shrink the slice of the economic pie that goes to the middle class. They seem to be realizing that they can both grow the economy and squeeze the workers with no consequences for stability. But even if there were no 'growth' in absolute terms, they would just find another way of calculating 'growth' to ensure that it looks like there is progress (imo, that is what has already happened over past decades).

Your long-winded post was

acanuck — Thu, 16 Sep 2010 06:29:46 +0000

In reply to I'm sorry if my long winded

Your long-winded post was perfectly clear, David. But given the buttons that are being pushed, we may get a little torch-lit parading as a bonus. Glenn Beck's "Restoring Honor" rally had less pomp than you saw in Nuremberg in the 1930s, but he's new at the game.

I'm sorry if my long winded

David Seaton — Thu, 16 Sep 2010 06:07:41 +0000

In reply to Do you know how much support

I'm sorry if my long winded post isn't clear. When I talk about fascism in America I do not envision torch-lit parades of brown shirted skinheads giving the roman salute. Anything America is going to have a distinctly American flavor. I am saying that we are already there. What is you see is what you get.

What is boils down to is that the party is over. The era of phenomenal growth that has lasted for 200 years is drawing to a close. From now on the world will operate more and more in the "zero-sum" mode, which is going to be like old fashioned musical chairs. In the Industrial Revolution version, which is running out of gas, when the music stopped they added more chairs, now it the classic game of musical chairs again, where they take away the chairs when the music stops. More and more people are left standing. A few still are sitting and they are afraid that those standing will want their chairs

What are the political consequences?

If people really understood that there wasn't going to be future abundance, that like in a lifeboat, there was only so much water and so much food, they would demand, as in a lifeboat, that the provisions be shared equitably. This would mean that people with huge fortunes would have to take an enormous haircut as their abundance would have to be shared out... they don't like the idea one bit.

The key phrase would be, "if people really understood". So it is important to keep them from thinking, from understanding what their situation really is.

That is what the Tea Party, Fox, etc is all about: keeping people from thinking straight. The idea is to play on people's emotions: fear, hate, racism, xenophobia, just to keep them from doing the math. The Teabaggers, Beck, Gringich and Fox are often criticized for not making any sense... this is not a failure or an error... that is the object of the exercise: to make rational thought difficult or impossible due to emotional overload. This is a slippery slope that leads to more war, more emotions and less and less cool headed thinking. We are already there.

David, I await your post at

NCD — Thu, 16 Sep 2010 03:29:10 +0000

In reply to Fascism is coming to the USA... Literally (no kidding)

David, I await your post at Dag on the $1.5 billion Central Command/Petraeus 5 year arms plan for Yemen reported in the NYT, and how far you think Obama and the GOP will go bankrupting the country chasing young Muslims going thru their Jihad stage on the other side of the world.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/16/world/middleeast/16yemen.html?hp

The piece says there are maybe 500 'al qaeda' there, which works out to over $2 million in weapons and 'training' to combat each single bad guy in the desert. Some at the State Dept. apparently fear we will just create another Arab 'strong man' who will primarily aim to wipe out his political foes. Is this insane or what?

If Obama OK's this I am done with him.

I just read Andrew Bacevich's 'Washington Rules'
and he says no military fiasco from Vietnam to Iraq to Afghanistan has stemmed the hammer lock perpetual war has on Washington, DC. He notes that the think tanks, the Pentagon brass, the arms industry, and the politicians they buy off all depend on the billions wasted in these overseas wars. He thinks we don't need it and can't afford it. Good book.

Do you know how much support

Rootman — Wed, 15 Sep 2010 23:40:54 +0000

In reply to Fascism is coming to the USA... Literally (no kidding)

Do you know how much support fascism has among the U.S. population or even corporate interests?

About zero. Fun to worry about, though.

Hey David. I have no doubt

cmaukonen — Wed, 15 Sep 2010 23:27:53 +0000

In reply to Fascism is coming to the USA... Literally (no kidding)

Hey David. I have no doubt that those om the extreme right would love nothing better than to set up a facist state here not unlike Nazi Germany or even Italy under Mussolini and may try. But unlike Europe of the 1920s, 30s and 40s - where most countries were still pretty isolated and separate unto them selves - no country these days can say that. We are far too inter twined these days. The Globalization that the left has raled about really started in the 1960s and has continued since then. Clinton's part was mearly a foot note to it. The near global economic collapse of 2008 was the last example of this.

So anything here (or anywhere) that threatens the stability of the rest of the world would be dealt with I can assure you. And an extreme fascist state would not be tolerated for very long. This is the whole reason behind the tea party - extreme right movement. The rest of the world has been intruding on their own little world more and more and they want it to not only stop but to revert to the ways things use to be. Or how they imagine they use to be.

But it cannot happen. Unlike Europe or Russia of the past, few events can be hidden from the rest of the world. And our advancing technology is making this even more so. Witness how ineffectual Iran was at attempting to keep the rest of the world from learning what was going on there during the past election protests.

Yes these people are dangerous but not I think in the way one might imagine. What I see as an undesirable outcome is an ineffectual chaotic state where very little can be accomplished and escalating conflict on a regional basis. With more and more states challenging the federal government like Arizona and the federal government less and less able to control it.

On what happened in Germany -

EmmaZahn — Wed, 15 Sep 2010 22:50:14 +0000

In reply to Fascism is coming to the USA... Literally (no kidding)

On what happened in Germany - from The Fear of Freedom by Erich Fromm, 1942,

"once certain needs have developed in a character structure, any behaviour in line with these needs is at the same time satisfactory psychologically and practical from the standpoint of material success. As long as a society offers the individual those two satisfactions simultaneously, we have a situation where the psychological forces are cementing the social structure. Sooner or later, however, a lag arises. The traditional character structure still exists while new economic conditions have arisen for which the traditional character traits are no longer useful. People tend to act according to their character structure, but either these actions are actual handicaps in their economic pursuits or there is not enough opportunity for them to find positions that allow them to act according to their "nature ". An illustration of what we have in mind is the character structure of the old middle classes, particularly in countries with a rigid class stratification like Germany. The old middle class virtues - frugality, thrift, cautiousness, suspiciousness - were of diminishing value in modern business in comparison with new virtues, such as initiative, a readiness to take risks, aggressiveness, and so on. Even inasmuch as these old virtues were still an asset - as with the small shopkeeper - the range of possibilities for such business was so narrowed down that only a minority of the sons of the old middle class could "use" their character traits successfully in their economic pursuits. While by their upbringing they had developed character traits that once were adapted to the social situation of their class, the economic development went faster than the character development. This lag between economic and psychological evolution resulted in a situation in which the psychic needs could no longer be satisfied by the usual economic activities. These needs existed, however, and had to seek for satisfaction in some other way. Narrow egotistical striving for one's own advantage, as it had characterised the lower middle class, was shifted from the individual plane to that of the nation. The sadistic impulses, too, that had been used in the battle of private competition were partly shifted to the social and political scene, and partly intensified by frustration. Then, freed from any restricting factors, they sought satisfaction in acts of political persecution and war. Thus, blended with the resentment caused by the frustrating qualities of the whole situation, the psychological forces instead of cementing the existing social order became dynamite to be used by groups which wanted to destroy the traditional political and economic structure of democratic society."

Since you are bringing the Marxists into your comparison of the tea partiers with Germany's pre-fascist lumpenproletariat middle class, who better to turn to than an old Marxist who had a front row seat from which to study them. That what his whole book is about. Note the name of the site linked.

I had to stop and digest all

trkingmomoe — Wed, 15 Sep 2010 22:26:51 +0000

In reply to Fascism is coming to the USA... Literally (no kidding)

I had to stop and digest all that you wrote. Yes as a voter I have noticed the republican party is falling apart. But I also have noticed the democrats are under pressure from their voters to toughen up and take the wealthy on.