dagblog - Comments for "All The King's Horses And All The King's Men Cannot Put Afghanistan Back Together Again"

agree

VLaszlo — Tue, 13 Oct 2009 06:36:58 +0000

In reply to All The King's Horses And All The King's Men Cannot Put Afghanistan Back Together Again

agree

Our disagreement is semantic

diachronic — Tue, 13 Oct 2009 02:42:02 +0000

In reply to All The King's Horses And All The King's Men Cannot Put Afghanistan Back Together Again

Our disagreement is semantic in the following sense:

If a group of Americans went to Pakistan, trained in madrassas , then returned to America and received funding and instructions from the ISI to take over the government, you would class this as an 'indigeneous' American movement, and I would not.

I would call it a foreign government that had usurped an indigenous one. You would not. Like most semantic arguments, it is trivial. Except for one element: The structure of the Taliban, its interpretations of law and Islam, resembles nothing that existed in Afghanistan prior to the Taliban's arrival. Therefore, I do not regard as indigenous in the sense that, say, the sheikdoms of Iraq are indigenous, or the way the Bible Belt in the US is an indigenous phenomenon.

I think we can probably

stillidealistic — Mon, 12 Oct 2009 23:20:50 +0000

In reply to All The King's Horses And All The King's Men Cannot Put Afghanistan Back Together Again

I think we can probably Monday morning quarterback this forever if we want. My position at this moment (subject to change without notice)is that we shouldn't be too hard on ourselves given the circumstances at the time. As a country we were in shock and relied on our President to make the best choice for us. Silly us.

Now we are not in shock, and I am horrified that so many are ready to repeat the failures of the past. We have now lost more men and women in Irag and Afghanistan than we did on 9/11, plus gazillions of dollars, with little if anything to show for it.

Seems like a no brainer to me...we need to get outta there!

The preponderance of evidence

Fred Moolten — Mon, 12 Oct 2009 21:24:06 +0000

In reply to All The King's Horses And All The King's Men Cannot Put Afghanistan Back Together Again

The preponderance of evidence indicates that the Taliban arose as an indigenous Afghan movement, which, as I mentioned, was aided from the beginning by elements within Pakistan. Many were Afghan refugees, and a substantial number were students who were educated in Pakistan madrassahs, but they were mostly Afghans with a focus on imposing their views as Afghans on Afghanistan. For more on their origins, including several links, see

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taliban#CITEREFMatinuddin1999

I haven't seen any evidence that Pakistan "created" the Taliban, although Pakistan has certainly used Taliban elements in its struggle against India. Perhaps our disagreement is semantic. You point out that the Pakistani madrassahs were instrumental in training Taliban recruits and that the ISI made use of them. My point is that the Taliban were mostly Afghans who had become alienated by events within Afghanistan, wanted to impose their own policies on the country, and made use of Pakistani support to promote their efforts. Let's leave it at that.

I would prefer evidence

brewmn61 — Mon, 12 Oct 2009 20:48:14 +0000

In reply to All The King's Horses And All The King's Men Cannot Put Afghanistan Back Together Again

I would prefer evidence beyond the anecdotal, and we haven't even started a serious cost/benefit analysis of keeping non-Taliban sympathizing Aghanis secure, but thanks for responding.

Not only did you not read

diachronic — Mon, 12 Oct 2009 19:49:12 +0000

In reply to All The King's Horses And All The King's Men Cannot Put Afghanistan Back Together Again

Not only did you not read what I posted, but you are factually wrong about the Taliban being "an indigenous Afghan movement."

They are not. See

http://middleeast.about.com/od/afghanistan/ss/me080914a_2.htm

http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/51/101.html

if you can't get the basic facts right, the rest becomes pure BS.

But since you are quite ideological about the Taliban being "indigenous," do facts really matter?

I believe Clinton is right

Fred Moolten — Mon, 12 Oct 2009 19:48:56 +0000

In reply to All The King's Horses And All The King's Men Cannot Put Afghanistan Back Together Again

I believe Clinton is right that Pakistan's nuclear arsenal is reasonably secure. I don't believe she is claiming it would remain equally secure if the Taliban claimed complete and uncontested control of Pakistan, thereby providing a secure sanctuary for any Al Qaeda elements who wishes to go back and forth across the border to promote terrorism and instability in Pakistan.

It's part of the evidence,

Fred Moolten — Mon, 12 Oct 2009 19:45:07 +0000

In reply to All The King's Horses And All The King's Men Cannot Put Afghanistan Back Together Again

It's part of the evidence, because he is an insider who has spent 30 years becoming an expert, including time spent living with the Taliban, and extensive communication with ordinary Afghans. Much other evidence is similar, including interviews with Afghan civilians. The nature of the conversation is usually the same. They say, "We want to trust you, but we're afraid you'll leave, and then the Taliban will return and take revenge."

That's only the men talking about their fear of the Taliban. If the women could express their private thoughts about what it would be like once again to be ruled by the Taliban, I imagine their passion would be much greater.

None of the above news items

Fred Moolten — Mon, 12 Oct 2009 19:32:07 +0000

In reply to All The King's Horses And All The King's Men Cannot Put Afghanistan Back Together Again

None of the above news items contradicts the rationale for remaining engaged in Afghanistan, and I've already signified my agreement with many of the above points. I don't think it's quite accurate to say that the Pakistanis created the Taliban, which is an indigenous Afghan movement, but certain Pakistani elements helped it get off the ground and have supported it.

The latest news on Pakistani terrorism suggests that the Pakistani military and ISI are beginning to reassess their perception that there are "good militants, bad militants" and are beginning to see a greater need to suppress the Pakistan insurgents, period. That will help, but if the Al Qaeda elements in Pakistan get a free pass into Afghanistan, the job will be harder.

The only reason the thread is

diachronic — Mon, 12 Oct 2009 19:31:50 +0000

In reply to All The King's Horses And All The King's Men Cannot Put Afghanistan Back Together Again

The only reason the thread is "not providing new information" to you is because you are impervious to it.