dagblog - Comments for "Secret Document Frago 242 Wiki-leaked"

I just finished some of

artappraiser — Sun, 24 Oct 2010 22:24:18 +0000

In reply to Excellent points all. And it

I just finished some of today's New York Times' ancillary pieces related to the Wikileaks story--just adding what came to mind in doing that.

Your #2 point is adressed in Tensions High Along Kurdish-Arab Line which is more appropriately titled in the print version as "A Fear That Kurdish-Arab Tensions Will Worsen After U.S. Leaves." (Much is being said about the leaks on Iran's involvement right now, but a reminder that that this particular conflict area also involves Turkey, which means the possibliity of a wider more complicated mess at some time in the future. )

And Sabrina Tavernise's overview analysis of the Iraqi wikileaks, Mix of Trust and Despair Helped Turn Tide in Iraq, does try to put it into the context of "is there anything we learn from this as regards Afghanistan?" And interesting to me, of course, in her summary, she brings up my point about human rights being sacrificed for safety: Iraqis of all stripes began to use the Americans as a bridge, coming forward with information about everything from Al Qaeda hide-outs to gas station extortions. Uses of the word “source” peak in 2007, with five times as many references as in 2004......By 2009, civilian deaths had dropped to the lowest levels recorded in the archive. In interviews in the summer of 2008, Iraqis said they were so deeply frightened by the killings in 2006 that they would do anything to avoid being dragged into that kind of violence again. Which in turn, reminded me of how and why the Taliban came to power in Afghanistan--mainly to provide pretty brutal "rule of Islamic law" safety from warlord anarchy.

Edit to add:

Salam Pax March 26, 2009, on "It's fear that keeps the peace."

Got them. Appreciate your

Oxy Mora — Sun, 24 Oct 2010 19:35:48 +0000

In reply to Thanks for thinking it was

Got them. Appreciate your response.

Could you explain further?

we are stardust — Sun, 24 Oct 2010 19:16:39 +0000

In reply to There are those who feel like

Could you explain further? I'm not sure I'm getting your meaning, NCD.

There are those who feel like

NCD — Sun, 24 Oct 2010 19:12:27 +0000

In reply to Plus: keep in mind that these

There are those who feel like the leaks make conditions as such that they can attack us there. My answer is bring them on!

We have always had the force necessary to maintain security!

Thanks for the link, AA. I'm

Obey — Sun, 24 Oct 2010 16:56:51 +0000

In reply to John F. Burns and Ravi Somaya

Thanks for the link, AA. I'm not convinced by the "Bureaucratic red tape in the Taliban administration holding up proceedings" argument. To put it mildly.

As for Assange's excentricities described in the piece, and the infighting amongst Wikileakers, I tend to take that kind of stuff with a grain of salt. All the great investigative reporters I know are similarly excentric and paranoid and have delusions of grandeur. It does not detract from their work. One should judge them by the consequences of their actions. And infighting is natural in an organization undert THIS KIND OF PRESSURE.

In this case, we have no ascertainable harm. So far...

Whew; glad I didn't say that

we are stardust — Sun, 24 Oct 2010 15:37:30 +0000

In reply to You took my "I sometimes

Whew; glad I didn't say that these are problems for the world community to help with! And I get your drift, Artie. How many calls to help in Darfur, Congo, etc.?

The UN peacekeepers do seem to stand and watch a lot, don't they? It may be why nationalism drives a more ruthless and/or efficient military, if you believe or can be convinced to believe, in what you're fighting for.

When someone on the boards said about Afghanistan and not-leaving-soon, in order to make it better before troops departed (as if), I started trying to find some reports on what's going on there; the pictures weren't a bit pretty. Toxic dumps galore, lots of depleted uranium, millions of tons of concrete rubble, little potable water or electricity...just hideous. And it all makes me wonder how much worse off they'd be in any of the important ways without us.

So much of the disappeared billions in both Iraq and Afghanistan have made the problems worse in terms of corruption and sectarian alliances, and so much money wasted by the many, many, NGOs contribute to the problems. Citizens see us as unable to deliver, PLUD aiding increased corruption. Damn.

I guess I'd try to harden my heart, if leaving could be done well, as in the bases turned over to the governments. But it won't happen, in any event.

And not to be over-the-top critical of the US, but how many around the world are left who don't believe that US foreign policy and wars and hegemony are anything but er...messed up?

John F. Burns and Ravi Somaya

artappraiser — Sun, 24 Oct 2010 15:24:46 +0000

In reply to S "By disclosing such

John F. Burns and Ravi Somaya imply that such results may still be coming but just will take some time, and that Assange himself does not dispute such risk:

A Taliban spokesman in Afghanistan using the pseudonym Zabiullah Mujahid said in a telephone interview that the Taliban had formed a nine-member “commission” after the Afghan documents were posted “to find about people who are spying.” He said the Taliban had a “wanted” list of 1,800 Afghans and was comparing that with names WikiLeaks provided.

“After the process is completed, our Taliban court will decide about such people,” he said.

Mr. Assange defended posting unredacted documents, saying he balanced his decision “with the knowledge of the tremendous good and prevention of harm that is caused” by putting the information into the public domain. “There are no easy choices on the table for this organization,” he said.

from

WikiLeaks Founder on the Run, Trailed by Notoriety, published October 23

(recommended to read all especially because it includes quotes from an interview with Assange in person last Sunday as well as from disgruntled and unhappy wikileaks persons.)

You took my "I sometimes

artappraiser — Sun, 24 Oct 2010 15:22:12 +0000

In reply to We seem to have a long

You took my "I sometimes wonder how many of those who strongly argue" more specifically than the general rhetorical thoughts I am refering to. Actually, the older I get, the more I myself tend to sympapthize with isolationism excepting for trade, ala George Washington. But to me that requires a certain cold heartedness that I don't see in a lot of people who argue about getting American troops out of here or there. They are often the ones who would like to see UN troops in here or there to save people from themselves, like Israel/Palestine or Haiti, who when atrocities happen somewhere say "why can't we help them?". Anyone who thinks there is a great difference between UN troops and US troops as to the potential for messing things up and causing atrocities as well as preventing them is just believing in magic ponies. Policing by outsiders is like that. Heck, often policing by insiders is like that.

Thanks for thinking it was

we are stardust — Sun, 24 Oct 2010 14:48:21 +0000

In reply to Star, what great composing so

Thanks for thinking it was good, but I felt leaden, and I'd been up and coffeed for two hours. ;o) It's a hard subject, because for so many reasons, we've been encourage to buy into memes that had their beginnings in bad doctrine trying to cover for even worse foreign policy of Empire. It has to end sometime, but not in the frseeable future.

I have Antonia Juhasz's email address on another account; I keep meaning to try to contact her. She was the go-to person for a long time on Iraqi oil contracts. I did google for the most recent contracts a few months ago, and if there were American companies, they were disguised a bit, which in such a global economy wouldn't be too rough. I know the Kurds said F*ck It a while back, and cut some deals with the Chinese. Good for them; the US has screwed them multiple times in the past, ginning up revolution, then casting them aside to the victors. I hope they get some oil production going, myself.

Pepe Escobar has a new, extremely lengthy piece posted called "The New Silk Road". It's not the neo-con dream of Afghanistan's New Silk Road, in which new Western alliances form to build railroads across Afghanistan to help rape aid the nation in developing its estimated billions and trillions of untapped mineral wealth and ship it out by sea (through Pakistan? Who knows or remembers?), but he (at great length) points out the US folly of waging insanely expensive wars for resource domination, while China working with ,so wisely just spends her money on gargantuan bids for rights and production of oil and gas and pipelines. (Ah; those inscrutable and wiley fiends!)

Anyway, there were seven or eight multi-national oil companies that have secured contracts, but last I read none had much development going. I'll scout around and see if I can find the links to refresh my memory, and maybe give Antonia a jingle. She was great in always responding to a nobody... ;o)

Here's a video of Pepe:

http://vodpod.com/watch/2015537-pepe-escobar-iranchina-and-the-new-silk-road

and the ling piece from Asai Times:

http://www.tomdispatch.com/blog/175306/tomgram%3A_pepe_escobar%2C_pipelineistan%27s_new_silk_road__/

Star, what great composing so

Oxy Mora — Sun, 24 Oct 2010 13:59:15 +0000

In reply to We seem to have a long

Star, what great composing so early in the morning.

Decider must of course have been aware of all these complexities before he invaded. Branding pledges with a red hot clothes hanger at the DKE house at Yale must have helped shape his thinking about the destabilization of a society and the possible aftermath.

But, about the embassy, and the oil underneath it--do you, or does anyone else, know what is the latest on the actual oil deals made by the Iraq "government"?