dagblog - Comments for "Still looking for the WikiLeaks Heroes"

It also directly contradicts

DF — Thu, 28 Oct 2010 00:39:20 +0000

In reply to Ramona said, in a response to

It also directly contradicts her professed support for whistleblowers. Unresolved contradictions are the main theme of this piece.

Ramona said, in a response to

A Guy Called LULU — Thu, 28 Oct 2010 00:09:19 +0000

In reply to Ramona: why, for you, is this

Ramona said, in a response to my comment, which was the first to disagree with her position,

"...but nothing justifies the unauthorized publication of classified documents."

This, and other statements she made in the ensuing train of comments, seems to contradict any idea that it was only the huge scope of the release that made that release, in her opinion, a crime she characterized as treason. I was surprised that anyone would hold the opinion that nothing justified releasing classified material, so I questioned that statement expecting some modification to it, but she repeated it with emphasis.

"Yes, Lulu, I really did mean that in my opinion nothing justifies the unauthorized publication of classified documents."

The absolute nature of that statement over-rides any consideration of the number of documents released as it dismisses any justification for ever, under any circumstances, revealing actions of our government, no matter how criminal those actions might be, unless our government says it is okay to do so.

Ramona: why, for you, is this

wws — Wed, 27 Oct 2010 22:47:31 +0000

In reply to My attitude is nonchalant?

Ramona: why, for you, is this leak a question of "magnitude" when you seem to agree that nothing that has been released is all that surprising because it is, at least allusively, "old" news?

I'm not being oppositional; I really want to know: why is it the NUMBER of releases which seems to trouble you so? Rather than being troubled by the almost pedestrian, day-to-day, cumulative damning quality of what has been released?

I spent many of my growing up years in Washington in the Maryland suburbs, which gave me a pedestrian, day-today context for claims of "need to know".....during, for example, the Cuban Missile crisis in which many of my family's neighbors had "Secret" or "Top Secret" clearances.

Question: did their clearances indemnify them from fundamental responsibility to us -- we the people -- for the arguably reckless decisions they made or recommended? The positions they tacitly endorsed? The group think that cost lives and might have cost Holocaust-level numbers of lives had they not been stopped short by just a few good men?

These are sincere questions, tendered to you, as someone I respect but question mightily on this issue.

I don't know how you

oleeb — Wed, 27 Oct 2010 19:22:46 +0000

In reply to Hi Oleeb. I've been reading

I don't know how you concluded that I told anyone what they think or how they feel, but that's fine. All I was did was point out the truth of the situation, based upon reported facts and commented on what Ramona herself said she felt (fear) and what she thought based upon that.

I've been thinking about your

we are stardust — Wed, 27 Oct 2010 15:18:29 +0000

In reply to Your response it good enough

I've been thinking about your objection to the plethora of leaked documents, and have been reading a lot about them this morning. That they are field reports during that time period make it almost inevitable that they all need to be published if any are. To pick and choose would skew the picture, IMO.

I've only been reading commentary and compilations of certain subject areas, like the Wolfe Brigade death squads and Maliki's death squads, and the many, many flat-out murdered Iraqis by their security forces (many trained by some of worst military operating in El Salvador), etc. But the utterly horrific nature of what I read has chilled me to the bone, Ramona.

Reading the accounts so far also begs the question of how the US will proceed from here on out. Will America take all this seriously? Much of the rest of the world is; I hope leaders will emerge to lead us to a better place. Wouldn't it be great if Jon Stewart's big doings in D.C. addressed war along with domestic issues?

Anyhoo; sorry you got taken to task for stuff you hadn't written; looks like kgb made you laugh, and that's a good thing. I'll do the smiley for him! ;~)

Hi Oleeb. I've been reading

Orlando — Wed, 27 Oct 2010 06:22:12 +0000

In reply to Temper, termper... Look, you

Hi Oleeb. I've been reading your comments on this thread with interest, as I have been reading all of the responses. As I mentioned in my own comments, this is not an issue that I've been paying very close attention to, so I'm really learning about it here for the first time. I appreciate that you passionately believe what you are advocating. You may be spot-on correct. However, I would very much appreciate it if you could stick to advocating for your beliefs in your comments rather than telling other people what they think and how they feel. Dagblog is big enough for all sorts of arguments and disagreements. We just prefer that they remain about the issues at hand and refrain from getting personal. Thanks for listening.

Temper, termper... Look, you

oleeb — Wed, 27 Oct 2010 05:24:56 +0000

In reply to What you say in your first

Temper, termper...

Look, you obviously don't grasp what I'm saying and I just don't know what to do about it. I couldn't be clearer or more straightforward.

I'm sorry you're unable to see how your fear-based assertions are completely unsupported by any facts or evidence and that you are afraid of and worried about a problem that doesn't exist, that you are wringing your hands over nothing and calling people who have done us all a great favor "traitors" while describing the outing of Valerie Plame as "benign". You repeatedly avoid answering anything directly and instead get all emotional and personally offended. You now respond in an even more shrill way to what is nothing more than a straightforward critique of the weak argument you put forward. You haven't responded to even one point of criticism other than to dramatically claim you are not a tool. But the way you respond makes very clear you just are not comprehending the points I've made. I have to laugh at your taking offense at my pomposity. Really. What a hoot! Tell me the part again about how it's treason to expose the lies and criminal conduct of the government will ya? And don't forget the part about your fear of the unprecedented threat we face. My pomposity? Please.

Your response it good enough

we are stardust — Wed, 27 Oct 2010 04:04:56 +0000

In reply to Stardust, I don't know what

Your response it good enough for me, Ramona. I wish I could remember the original topic of the blog, but I can't. It wasn't so much how you said what you did, but the group effect of you and all the women weighing in with horror about X, and IMO, misunderstanding his legacy that was harsh, and questioning my support of him. Interestingly enough, as I remember it, it was all women participating.

The discussion between you and A-man was simply evidence of the authority I mentioned. That you seem to be willing to accept that some of us have been uncomfortable with your presentation is plenty good for me to let go of this.

On the merits of your argument, all I can think to say is that our government has caused death and pain and dislocation in the wars that should not have visited on people at all in Iraq and Afghanistan. It's always a judgement call to act in the ways that we deem correct and right, and others can find fault with those decisions when they go against some oath or duty others consider sancrosanct. In this case, I believe we need to discover the secrets being kept from us about the criminal and unethical treatment of other human beings on the planet, and these common, not top secret documents are providing evidence of secrets the military doesn't want us to know.

I blogged about the fact that our military turned a blind eye to torture and abuse as dictated by a fiield directive, breaking our covenant with the Geneva Convention standards for occupiers. There are still many more issues to deal with in terms of what our troops and contractors engaged in. I think that can wait until after the election to explore. None of it will make us feel good; it's ugly, and it's wrong. And I do hope that what we find out will make a difference to most of us. Many say that it won't.

Good night Ramona, and thank you for talking easily with me; I really do appreciate it.

Hey, you made me laugh. I

Ramona — Wed, 27 Oct 2010 03:54:16 +0000

In reply to Well. Hell. I figured as much

Hey, you made me laugh. I didn't think I was going to a few minutes ago, so see--you're not such an a-hole. I'm glad you didn't do the smiley faces. That would put me over the edge, for sure. . .

What you say in your first

Ramona — Wed, 27 Oct 2010 03:40:22 +0000

In reply to As for your first paragraph

What you say in your first paragraph is essentially that you are afraid. Fine. It's your right to be fearful. Your fear of a nonexistent problem is not, however, evidence that it exists. I have laid out quite clearly the fault in your unsupported claims, but you don't respond in any way and I understand that it would be difficult because there is no evidence of any kind to support the claims your fear justifies in your mind. The internal contradictions in your argument and the plain fact that you cannot support any of your assertions with relevant evidence is quite telling. I know you really believe and feel that this is important but again, supporting your fear based belief only with your fear is not enough to make the boogey man real. He isn't.

I have responded every way but inside out. I don't know what your game is, but here is where I'm at: I've been a liberal activist since I was a teenager watching the Army/McCarthy and HUAC hearings live on TV. I have marched and carried signs and written letters and contributed money and howled at the moon over the liberal causes that meant the most to me. I don't need you to tell me to beware the big, bad government. I don't need you to school me in how to react to what's going on in this country. I've been there. I've taken it all in, buddy, and what I need for you to do now is to take that pompous-ass paragraph above and shove it.