dagblog - Comments for "Lies My President Told Me"

You seem hopelessly in the

oleeb — Fri, 10 Dec 2010 22:33:25 +0000

You seem hopelessly in the thrall of conventional thinking.

The point is wasting time wondering if we are prepared for a stalemate to cause negative effects is silly. That isn't going to happen and if it did it would be the fault of Republicans and our side should make that clear instead of hiding like they normally do.

Here's the plan:

1. Fight the Republicans so at least people will know who is and who is not on their side!

2. Quite chasing the pipe dream of bipartisanship through preemptive capitulation. It only encourages more obstructionism.

3. Quit wringing our hands about what the Republicans will do and start doing the right thing confident that in the end when we act right the people will recognize that and not be fooled by the usual Republican lies.

4. Play to win instead of always playing not to lose. Obama's refusal to engage the enemy makes Gen. George McClellan who headed the Army of the Potomac look like George S. Patton!

5. Quit trying to please everyone and stop servicing the crooks of Wall Street and the Corporate Board Rooms and start looking out for the little people first and last!

6. Whaever you do quit aping the Republican trickle down policies that don't work and start implementing the policies we know work which are the New Deal type programs that nominal Democrats like Obama don't want.

First, I didn't say

Elusive Trope — Fri, 10 Dec 2010 22:07:14 +0000

In reply to It's preposterous to imply

First, I didn't say unemployment would rise to those numbers, heck even without anything being done it is in the realm of possibility that the numbers go down (just very unlikely). What I said was that collectively we need to saying that should it come to that as a result of drawing the line in the sand, we'd be okay with that because of where our priorities are at.

How come this deal or something like it wasn't what the economic recovery depended upon two weeks ago? Hmmmm? Did things change dramatically since then? Of course they didn't.

True. Which is kind of the point. In fact they haven't changed in a long time. The unemployment numbers have stagnated. They're not coming down below 9%. And what people saying is that should be the top priority. Get people back to work. Get the economy humming again. Over and over and over they keep saying that.

Now, one can believe that the economy is going to get better without a further stimulus, or one can believe that if it has any hope at all of recovering there is going to be in need in some stimulus. Once the Republican take control of the House, there is no chance of something in the form direct stimulus getting passed. If the tax cut are allowed to expire, that will be all they will focus on, along with their buddies in the Senate. Up til now, Congress has not been open to any more direct stimulus and it is very very unlikely they would suddenly be able to push something through the Congress. Although I would be curious what kind of stimulus package you think is doable during this session of Congress.

So without the compromise there is a good chance that unemployment benefits would be the only thing passed. Hardly enough to move the economy in any significant way. If one believes the economy needs some stimulus, then one is ensuring continued bad days. My guess is that the economy would continue to limp along not getting significantly worse but not any better. And the people have made this clear that that is not acceptable.

Another significant piece of the puzzle is the businesses who are sitting on their loads of cash. I do believe that many large business have held off making significant investments back into the economy in large part because they wanted what exactly happened in the 2010 elections. Now with the tax breaks they can get things humming knowing it will reinforce the meme that tax cuts creates jobs. Which is not good, but the alternative is that they continue to sit on their cash and we get a continuing stagnant economy, or as you say the continuing "depression." Which brings us back to whether that is acceptable or not.

So the people will continue to be outraged over 9% unemployment and all they will see is Obama locking horns with the Republicans in a stalemate and groan that is the same old same old do nothing D.C. All the while the Republicans will be saying "if only we got our tax cuts." People won't care that Obama is standing up to the bullies. They only want jobs, they want their communities to be economically on the upswing.

I could go on, but really what is the point.

What's the point of enabling

oleeb — Fri, 10 Dec 2010 21:37:17 +0000

In reply to Even the Fox News zombies in

What's the point of enabling the Republican plans as Obama would do in this "deal" that sucks? He also did the very same thing with healthcare and they practically hung the Democrats out to dry with it. Why on earth would any sane person repeat the very same strategic error over and over?

This idea that Obama somehow is suddenly concerned with jobs makes me kinda chuckle. He spent the first year blowing Wall Street and the other predatory interests, he conceded so much on the original stimulus that it was not nearly as effective as it could and should have been had he not caved in on that one. Now he's suddenly overwhelmed with concern on jobs? Give me a break. He's merely grasping at straws because most of his half measures have produced half measure results and he wants there to be some improvement so he can get re-elected. I don't think he has much more sympathy for the unemployed and those losing their homes than the Republicans do. If he did he would have proposed and passed a genuine jobs program but he didn't. In fact, he showed a great deal of indifference the past 18 months or so.

And there are plenty of alternatives, but good ol President Surrender First has probably taken those issues "off the table" already as he did when he undermined his own healthcare legislation push. The truth is Obama isn't much of a Democrat at all. As Bill Maher says: "he's a moderate Republican from the 70's!"

Even the Fox News zombies in

Elusive Trope — Fri, 10 Dec 2010 19:17:34 +0000

In reply to Trope-Your argument makes no

Even the Fox News zombies in the GOP base would know something is rotten if unemployment went to those levels, and after giving the GOP the big victory in November The Base might smell the stink of betrayal and wonder where are the jobs the New Breed of Conservatives promised.

This is true, but that wouldn't undo the suffering people would have to go through in order for even the zombies to smell the rotten something. And that's my point. No one knows exactly what kind of impact this deal would have, nor what the impact would be if we let the tax cuts sunset. We have already seen, however, that American companies have been willing to just sit on huge sums of money and wait things out. What's another year if it means a Repub in the WH and a Repub majority in the Senate.

Which brings us to the issue of whether something had to be done right now to start bringing unemployment down. Apparently this is not as important to you as some other priorities. Yet Obama made a decision that something had to be done now. At the beginning of the article I linked to in the previous post, it starts off with Obama pulling in the Dem leadership and asking them if they had any better ideas. Apparently they didn't.

And I understand the case for drawing the line in the sand and fighting it. I also know just everybody is asking "where are the jobs?" So I undestand the desire to act now with some kind of stimulus, even if it means giving in some things. As it states in the article, even the WH knows there hold-one's-nose items like the estate tax.

One can all too easily envision a better plan, but Congress has shown that getting something else accomplished to stimulate economy was pretty much a pipedream.

I would just add that if it is already a done deal on how the Repubs and their allies will destory SS in the future, what's the point of talking about it? Maybe the people need to be made hyper-aware about why it needs to be sunsetted (is that word?) so that when the time comes, to do otherwise is akin to cutting social security. SS has been under attack before (remember W.'s attempt) and will continue to be. The payroll tax does not necessarily have to end badly for SS as long as the issue is kept in front of the people.

100% agreed! Particularly

oleeb — Fri, 10 Dec 2010 18:55:23 +0000

In reply to Trope-Your argument makes no

100% agreed!

Particularly agree with Soros' sentiment about not minding a loss if you fight and lose, but surrender? Fuck that shit.

It's preposterous to imply

oleeb — Fri, 10 Dec 2010 18:52:35 +0000

In reply to You make a great argument

It's preposterous to imply that if these tax cuts and the other goodies don't happen that unemployment will shoot up to that level so I'm not going to deal with that silliness as though it is serious because it isn't.

The entire argument that the economic recovery depends upon this deal is, as Harry Truman would have said: "a red herring." How come this deal or something like it wasn't what the economic recovery depended upon two weeks ago? Hmmmm? Did things change dramatically since then? Of course they didn't. The White House is lying. Don't you get that? They are saying anything they can to generate support for a bill they know sucks and, by the way, which doesn't even exist at this point. Alan Grayson called the approach of getting support without even seeing a bill, holding no hearings, having no markup and basing the need to pass it on some emergency basis because the world will end if we don't: "legislative malpractice" and I agree with him. That's what it is... among other things.

The point is this: time doesn't end if the Republicans don't get what they want by December 31st as Obama is trying to scare people into believing. That's just absurd. It is not even close to being true. He's trying to avoid being blamed by the Republicans if people don't get their unemployment benefits (which they will even if this bill doesn't pass) and for blaming him for the minor tax increase that most people would experience if the cuts expire. In short, he's being a typical spinless Democrat looking out for himself and not being beneath lying in order to do whatever he thinks he need to, to protect himself. If the man would grow a pair of balls and tell the Republicans that he isn't going to discuss any additional presents for the predator class and lets all the tax cuts expire those same Republicans will have to come back to the table with something different. But he's such a wimp he rattles in fear that the Republicans won't budge. And so what does he do? Out of pure terror he tells the whole world weeks in advance that he'll cave in to the Republicans. Gee, what a surprise they don't budge after that huh? It's just embarassing to have witnessed it and then to watch him be so utterly clueless in thinking that people don't see his capitulation for exactly what it is?

It is just appalling to me that Obama and others who support his very poor strategy haven't learned that caving in to them only encourages them to continue their obstructionist strategy. With each capitulation the Republicans become more, not less strident. Obama's stubborn naivete about somehow winning them over by conceding is the most amazing display of wimpiness I've ever seen of any President. His strategy on everything has failed. This strategy will not only fail, but he's lying to the public about fighting two years from now. What kind of idiot would believe him at this point? Clearly the Congressional Black Caucus doesn't buy his lie on this and frankly I don't know how anyone could.

If just one time he stands up to those scumbags and they finally understand that he's no longer going to be bullied then the Republicans will come to the table and negotiate in good faith and not before. Not only is this not the best deal that could be reached, but this is a rotten deal and it isnt a choice between this and a double dip by a long shot. That's just malarky and if you really believe that I feel sorry for you. It's the oldest trick in the book and it called: he is lying to you about that. Obama is a weak person, a weak leader and a bad one. His judgement is terrible when you consider how he has botched every single one of the biggest pieces of legislation during his tenure: the stimulus, TARP II, Healthcare, Cap and Trade, DADT and now this piece of crap that is not only bad but contains time bombs that will go off right at the next election and will only help Republicans! You'd have to be a complete fool to agree to something like this.

As for the White House's concern that Democrats on The Hill would cave that's always got to be a concern particularly when the leader (Obama) is such a coward. He instills zero confidence in our side and breeds contempt and confidence in his adversaries when they see what a cream puff he is. If he showed the slightest bit of backbone it would encourage and inspire Democrats but he does the exact opposite. Leaders lead. Cowards capitulate. Sadly, there's no other conclusion but that Obama is a coward. He can say all he wants otherwise. He can convince his shrinking base of die hard supporters otherwise. But he has shown what he's made of to the entire nation and it's clear he's not made of much. Unless and until he finally has the couraage to stand up to the Republican bullies and be President instead of a someone just keeping the seat warm the number of gullible people who still think he's something other than a wimp is going to rapidly disappear.

I think Trope's right that

Michael Maiello — Fri, 10 Dec 2010 18:32:24 +0000

In reply to Trope-Your argument makes no

I think Trope's right that Obama feels that if he leads a hard charge he'll look back and not see the congressional hordes behind him. And a lot of people in Congress likely feel that the White House will abandon them if they fight for anything. It really does seem to be a sickness within the party right now.

Trope-Your argument makes no

NCD — Fri, 10 Dec 2010 18:03:51 +0000

In reply to You make a great argument

Trope-Your argument makes no sense at all.

'Obama pre-emptively caved to the GOP because he felt Democrats in Congress would cave, so the sooner the GOP got what they wanted the better for Obama'.

If Obama knew the Democrats would cave in a GOP game of chicken there would seem to be no risk at all in Obama taking a stand and fighting.

It would show he at least stood by his principles, even if the Democrat quislings in Congress did not. As Soros said, he doesn't mind losing, he does mind losing without a fight. Americans respect and want a fighter as President, win or lose, not a giver upper who compromises his principles at at the get go.

You apparently believe the GOP would stand firm on points like the tax cuts for 0.11% of estates (which is the % difference between the Kyl plan and the Reid/Pelosi plan, Kyl - 0.14% of estates, Dems- 0.25%) in the face of 14% unemployment on main street.

I don't think so. Even the Fox News zombies in the GOP base would know something is rotten if unemployment went to those levels, and after giving the GOP the big victory in November The Base might smell the stink of betrayal and wonder where are the jobs the New Breed of Conservatives promised.

The fact is, if the GOP is not howling, like chicken-shit Boehner last week when Pelosi had the vote on the middle class only tax cuts, then you know its not a negotiation, it is capitulation.

Of course, another give away was the reduction in SS payroll tax. The SS payroll tax has never been reduced since its inception, to do so endangers its solvency. The Obama 'deal' on it is obviously Republican Jujitsu to never for allow a 'tax increase' to the old rate, thereby starving the beast of SS and eventually tuning into a welfare program which can shrunken or killed. The deal stinks, and Obama and the party he is supposed to lead as President is diminished by it.

You make a great argument

Elusive Trope — Fri, 10 Dec 2010 16:21:34 +0000

In reply to Lies My President Told Me

You make a great argument except you waffle on the economic risk you are willing to accept in order to make the stand. To the extent that you affirm the possibility that things could get worse if Obama drew the line in the sand, you minimize it by implying things are already so bad what's a little more misery. If people asking for the fight said it would be acceptable if, in order to achieve a large victory, in the short-term that unemployment rose to 12% or 14%, then maybe I could see asking the president to go for it. But I'm not hearing that.

Moreover, in the end it is not Obama who gets to make the final decision but Congress. Howard Kurtz writes:

The White House view is that congressional Democrats would have ultimately caved, leaving Obama with an embarrassing loss after he had raised the stakes.

I think this was a valid concern on the White House's part. These are afterall the Dems who refused to deal with this issue prior to the election. What makes one think that they'll stay with Obama behind that line in the sand. Afterall, as it is pointed out in blog after blog here and elsewhere, the Dems are just as corrupted by the wealthy elite as are the Republicans. And even if one won't go that far, there are definitely plenty of conservative (and liberal) Dems who will panic about being painted as tax-and-spend liberals if the tax cuts are allowed to expire.

Suggestion for Obama, to

NCD — Fri, 10 Dec 2010 16:03:36 +0000

In reply to Lies My President Told Me

Suggestion for Obama, to avoid any future culpability for your failures, which seems to be your main passion and indulgence, in the remaining two years of your term, spend all your time on the golf course.

By doing so you would avoid once again playing the role of a defeated shellacked weakling, cowering before the triumphant GOP forged Twilight of the Progressives,.

The resurgent victorious Republican Götterdämmerung which the GOP claims will sweep away the deficit, lower taxes, create jobs, purge liberals, win the wars and focus government on what it does best... which they don't tell you....use the government to make rich capitalists richer, and by so doing, enriching themselves and The Party. Paying for it all, of course, by burdening the middle class and future generations with the bill, and cutting the safety net for the poor, the disabled, and the ill.