dagblog - Comments for "Iraqi Leader Who Killed His Own People Returns to Power in New Democratic Middle East"

But.....I thought when Bush

NCD — Mon, 10 Jan 2011 00:53:11 +0000

But.....I thought when Bush invaded, his supporting wingnut Base said "Kick their ass, and take their gas!" ...didn't work out that way, which adds to the anger on the right.

Excellent and succinctly stated points acanuck.

Americans have concluded,

jollyroger — Sun, 09 Jan 2011 22:30:33 +0000

In reply to The fundamental fact to

Americans have concluded, with the eager help of politicians of both parties, that God is offended by the prospect that we might actually share space on a bus with other people (eewww...) rather than cruise about cocooned by steel.

That we might live near each other, conveniently walking to the store, instead of defended on all sides from human contact by half-acre zoning.

Gasoline at market price? A stench in the nostrils of the Lord, and an abomination before the nations....

The fundamental fact to

acanuck — Sun, 09 Jan 2011 22:20:51 +0000

In reply to Iraqi Leader Who Killed His Own People Returns to Power in New Democratic Middle East

The fundamental fact to acknowledge is that virtually nothing -- NOTHING -- that has happened in the Greater Middle East in the past half-century did so despite U.S. intervention. It has all happened because of U.S. intervention. From overthrowing Mosadegh and installing the shah, to arming the mujahedin to push the Soviets out of Afghanistan, to egging on Saddam to attack Iran, to setting up vast military bases in Saudi Arabia -- it's all come back to bite the U.S. in the ass.

Military adventures and co-opting of local leaders have had one overarching effect: to destabilize existing governments and empower fundamentalists as the only viable alternative. Khomenei, Moqtada al-Sadr, Mullah Omar, even Osama bin Laden -- each is in his own way an American creation. Get the hell out now, buy your oil on the open market, and use the the money you save on Mideast wars to save your own crumbling society. It's not rocket science.

I have seen $11/gal quoted as

jollyroger — Sun, 09 Jan 2011 19:08:28 +0000

In reply to Coming from a "country

I have seen $11/gal quoted as factoring in the dollars spent shoring up friendlies...that, of course, does not include the fractional life/gallon cost of our dead, let alone the multiples of that number of innocents incinerated...

In short, too fucking much to waste hauling 3 tons of metal around with us on the way to the supermarket.

Agree with Jollyroger. The

NCD — Sun, 09 Jan 2011 16:13:00 +0000

In reply to Okay. If we are to into this

Agree with Jollyroger. The point is this ain't no new Middle East and our crimes and intervention have done little in the way of good (they have the internet now in Iraq and I think Friedman was touting all the cell phones). Starting wars is a risky and expensive business, and the outcomes are often not what was expected or assured by war supporters.

Our adventure in Afghanistan seems to be making things worse in Pakistan, as tens of thousands march to support the assassination of the moderate governor of Punjab. The Iraqi's may kick us out later this year which is fine with me, it would be a gift from Allah if we were kicked out of Af/Pak by the local governments also.

Agreed.

NCD — Sun, 09 Jan 2011 15:57:48 +0000

In reply to "We were better off"More to

Agreed.

Coming from a "country

chucktrotter — Sun, 09 Jan 2011 08:20:24 +0000

In reply to The other thing that we need

Coming from a "country bumpkin"...Oil is a commidity that flows into a pool. There are thousands of storage facilities (including ocean-going tankers) holding crude until the oil prices optomize. It doesn't matter where the oil originates! Our oil companies do not have national interests...Just profits. We, as American taxpayers and providers of cannon fodder, keep the lanes of petroleum exports open for friend and foe. How much does a gallon of gasoline "actually" cost us?

When you are in a hole, and

jollyroger — Sun, 09 Jan 2011 07:37:18 +0000

In reply to Okay. If we are to into this

When you are in a hole, and you want to get out--first stop digging.

We can't do anyone any good there--we have the reveres midas touch. Everything we touch turns to shit. that's why anyone we endorse (whether explicitely, like Allawi, or tacitly, like Maliki) ends up worse off poitically.

Certainly no one is fooled re:our motivations. When they say "you are here to take the oil", they are hardly deluded.

The thing is, we could have paid ten dollars a gallon for gas since 1991, and we'd still be way ahead, economically, of where we are when you factor in the costs of these adventures.

That is, we as a people would be way ahead...Halliburton, Exxon, Chevron, etc. not so much.

The other thing that we need

jollyroger — Sun, 09 Jan 2011 07:30:15 +0000

In reply to Okay. If we are to into this

The other thing that we need to do is recognize Iranian regional hegemony--after all, we pumped up the Shah for 25 years in pursuit of that end.

Just because we bet on the wrong horse doesn't mean that the dominoes get reshuffled.

At least if we weren't meddling in Iraq, the built in arab/persian, Shia/sunni tension would guarantee some distance between Iran and the Shia dominated Iraq we have cleverly brought into being.

Furthermore, the Saudi oilfields are predominantly in the part of the country which is itself Shia majority.

That's just the way it is. We really need to get the fuck out of the way because stumbling around like we do just gets our buildings toppled, and stuff.

In other words, we are way out of our depth.

Okay. If we are to into this

Elusive Trope — Sun, 09 Jan 2011 06:29:55 +0000

In reply to Not to presume to speak for

Okay. If we are to into this discussion, are you coming from the point of view that we should just immediately leave, whatever comes from that...what will be will be?