dagblog - Comments for "The Howl of a Defeatist Liberal"

Yeats is a great nodal point.

moat — Mon, 17 Jan 2011 23:59:02 +0000

Yeats is a great nodal point. a before and an after.

I have heard that in heaven, Eliot and Auden go on beer runs for Yeats just to get him to stop.

What you say about Anomie

Elusive Trope — Mon, 17 Jan 2011 23:52:08 +0000

In reply to Wow. How about that? Great

What you say about Anomie makes sense. I suppose one might say that the defeatism that emerged after the second world war was made possible by the anomie that emerged from the aftermath of the first.

THE SECOND COMING

Turning and turning in the widening gyre
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.

Surely some revelation is at hand;
Surely the Second Coming is at hand.
The Second Coming! Hardly are those words out
When a vast image out of Spiritus Mundi
Troubles my sight: a waste of desert sand;
A shape with lion body and the head of a man,
A gaze blank and pitiless as the sun,
Is moving its slow thighs, while all about it
Wind shadows of the indignant desert birds.
The darkness drops again but now I know
That twenty centuries of stony sleep
Were vexed to nightmare by a rocking cradle,
And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?

--- William Butler Yeats

For democracy to be able to

moat — Mon, 17 Jan 2011 23:43:19 +0000

In reply to Let me first say that I

For democracy to be able to replicate itself, all involved must be able to have a life. Everything else is a class war.

The wars on US soil have all been about forms of life, even when variously removed participants fought for other reasons: Must I remain a slave? Can I remain a Kiowa? To be American is to survive a culture war.

If something like progress is possible, more and more people need to start having a life. When the divisions between people fall, new oppurtunities become possible. That is a good thing. But there is a catch. It becomes more difficult to build a collective enterprise when the structure becomes progressivly more contingent upon personal choices.

If we don't live the better life that might be possible, the whole thing is some kind of sick puppet show.

This is what I think about when they say that thing on the planes about the respirator. Put yours on first so that you will be able to help other people.

Would I have them arrested

Elusive Trope — Mon, 17 Jan 2011 23:43:18 +0000

In reply to Again, Trope, I see you tying

Would I have them arrested for expressing their ideology or their faith? No! Would I take every opportunity to marginalize them as social outcasts unworthy of any consideration? Absolutely! Would I flatten their tires? Now, THAT'S a far more interesting dilemma than anything you've introduced above! LOL!

Would I flatten the tires? A most interesting dilemma indeed. I suppose a lot depends on how one describes living in harmony. I am reminded of the nuns in the Sound of Music who vandalize the cars of the Nazis chasing the Von Trapp family. LOL.

And in saying so, you show

SleepinJeezus — Mon, 17 Jan 2011 23:33:10 +0000

In reply to Would I flatten their tires?

And in saying so, you show you understand the dilemma of which I speak. ;O)

Would I flatten their tires?

Atheist — Mon, 17 Jan 2011 23:30:55 +0000

In reply to Again, Trope, I see you tying

Would I flatten their tires? Now, THAT'S a far more interesting dilemma than anything you've introduced above! LOL!

That's an easy for me: I most definitely would not flatten their tires (although I wholeheartedly agree with you about the mechanics). Perhaps somewhat hypocritically, however, I also wouldn't feel any obligation to report on who did flatten their tires if I were privy to that information.

Wow. How about that? Great

EmmaZahn — Mon, 17 Jan 2011 23:30:11 +0000

In reply to Your post make me feels that

Wow. How about that? Great minds? ;-)

However, I think describing the sentiment resulting from WWI as defeatist is a bit harsh. Anomie seems to suit that era better. I would say defeatist came later after WW2 in the howls of Ginsburg, as you demonstrated, as well as Sartre, Kerouac, Thompson, etc.

Again, Trope, I see you tying

SleepinJeezus — Mon, 17 Jan 2011 23:23:32 +0000

In reply to I would say that maybe there

Again, Trope, I see you tying yourself in knots to create conundrums where none exist.

I can honor the free speech rights of anyone, especially the right of those who utter speech I find most offensive. The KKK and neo-Nazis and even the Westboro Baptist Church should not have their speech rights violated.

But I will NEVER propose to live in harmony with these people.

For example, quite recently the Westboro asshats supposedly protested at a military funeral in OK or KS (can't remember which). While at the funeral, someone flattened the tires on their vehicle. The photo I saw was of the vehicle being driven on its rims from one mechanic's shop to another because the businesses refused to provide them service.

I would have been among those who very reluctantly supported their right to (irresponsibly, IMO) exercise free speech. But I also would have stood with those business owners who refused to let such reprehensible and hateful people darken their door. And I would have been quite free in the exercise of my own free speech rights in letting them know exactly why I hoped they never received assistance with their tire problem.

Would I have them arrested for expressing their ideology or their faith? No! Would I take every opportunity to marginalize them as social outcasts unworthy of any consideration? Absolutely! Would I flatten their tires? Now, THAT'S a far more interesting dilemma than anything you've introduced above! LOL!

I would say that maybe there

Elusive Trope — Mon, 17 Jan 2011 22:05:26 +0000

In reply to Not much time here, but I

I would say that maybe there was too much passivity as presented. I have recently here at Dagblog been labelled an elitist by one soul for going after the folks in this country who believe the world is 10,000 years old (40% according to recent polls). I don't find a scientific truth in their perspective. I would also apply this conclusion to anyone beyond the Christian faith who have some literal understanding in their creationist beliefs.

At the same time we have to learn to live in harmony with those of other faiths. So we fight for the right for the KKK and the Neo-Nazis to march down the streets. Even as voice our disagreement about how they present the world.

At times, we find that an individual is able to use some found power to create an injustice. Whether it is denying an apartment to couple because they are Jews or setting a system of sending all the Jews to Concentration Camps. We need to do what we can to intervene so that such injustices do not happen. At the same time, we can't thrown someone into jail simply because they are Neo-Nazi (even though many of us would really, really love to).

Not much time here, but I

SleepinJeezus — Mon, 17 Jan 2011 19:47:03 +0000

In reply to It was Einstein I believe

Not much time here, but I gotta say that your "place on the mountain" analogy is troubling to me, at least as presented. It seems far too passive in accepting other ideologies or world-views. After all, somewhere on that mountain sits a guru who believes that imprisoning Jews in Concentration Camps is one in a list of adequate solutions to our collective problems. (Only one example.)

I can sit right alongside that person on the mountain, I suppose, but I won't ever find value or "truth" in their perspective. In fact, I'll probably do what I can to throw him off the mountain rather than allow him to act upon his beliefs.