dagblog - Comments for "Liberals Don't Persuade"

So, instead of addressing the

oleeb — Fri, 25 Feb 2011 22:28:11 +0000

In reply to Uh, oleeb, I hate to break it

So, instead of addressing the point which is that today's office holders are quite different from those of the FDR and Kennedy eras you glom on to one tiny facet of what I had to say thinking you've found a technical flaw and are making some startling point. You fail.

They lived in a different world than Obama ever did. They lived through the truly rotten days of the early twentieth century and they believed in the bedrock ideas of the New Deal. They udnerstood why it was important to safeguard the common people's intererst and to force the rich to curb their greed. They understood how bankrupt are the policies of the oligarchy which they could easily have chosen to defend but didn't because it was not only wrong but the wrong thing to do. Obama didn't and doesn't but that wasn't my main point was it? No indeed. It was that Obama and the majority of current Democratic office holders are careerist office holders primarily interested in holding office and that they neither identify with or wish to serve the common people and their record (including Obama's) clearly demonstrate that. They identify with those they serve: the rich. They wish to be rich themselves. They are me-firsters like Obama whose primary objective is their own agrandizement, power and advancement and not carrying forward the principles of the Democratic Party or any other party for that matter. They'll say and do whatever is good for them.

Now, do you want to attempt to refute the real point of my comment which is the problem of our modern careerist Democratic officeholders who don't believe in the New Deal? I'm all ears on that.

I like you T. As I recall

oleeb — Fri, 25 Feb 2011 22:20:56 +0000

In reply to Just because you may disagree

I like you T. As I recall sometime ago I got the impression we were about the same age. You seem to assume you know and know about everyone who's got experience "in the trenches". You need to rethink that. There are plenty of people who have been in the trenches as long as you and some longer who agree with my faction in assessing the sell out first Democratic strategy that has not only betrayed the great tradition of the Democratic Party since FDR but have betrayed the country as well. That is an opinion for sure but it is backed by an almost endless stream of facts. These facts are typically things that folks in your faction don't want to hear and consider any mention of these facts as unhelpful attacks on officeholders who are doing the best they can under difficult circumstances and who will, incrementally, make things better. Well, first off if that's right then you still have to be alive for the next 100+ years is you want to see any of that come to fruition given the glacial pace of forward movement provided by the corporate/DLC Democrats of Washington. Some of us no longer believe their schtick about incrementalism moving us forward since ever time they capitulate to the opposition and call it compromise the nation moves backwards. I know you don't agree with this view but we both have a right to our views whether or not the other likes it. I happen to believe that the record of failure, capitulation and retreat taken by the Democrats now for 30+ years has been a really, really bad thing and that continuing down that path is only going to make things worse than they are.

Now, as to some of the facts I'm not going to go on and on but I'll provide a very short list here just to demonstrate my opinion has a factual basis:

Obama lied about FISA and voted to allow retroactive immunity to telecoms and when he committed that lie he promised to correct defects in the legislation once elected which was another quite transparent lie even when he made it. Lies and flip flops are betrayals. Traitors to a cause betray their side.

He promised to let the Bush tax cuts expire because he knew that was bad for America, bad for our budget and bad for our future. He flip flopped anyway and extended the tax cuts for the rich knowing the harm it will bring and how very unlikely it is that they will now ever be repealed.

He lied to the nation about his healthcare reform plan campaigning on the public option as absolutely vital to "keeping them honest" and then almost instantly secretly agreed to kill the public option in return for the support of big pharma and insurance. He lied about this bill and his real position throughout the year the legislation was in play and continues to lie about the secret deal he made with the wealthy interests he swore he wouldn't make backroom deals with. That's a massive flip flop and lie and betrayal. He betrayed us on that.

He said he would support cram down power for judges in bankruptcy proceedings to help homeowners and flip flopped abandoning that for the opposite position which benefits his friends in the banking industry. Obama has done almost nothing to stem the foreclosure crisis which has proceeded apace without any respite since 2008. He promised quite explicitly to help homeowners and to have the banks and other bad actors in finance be made to answer for their malfeasance. Instead, Obama's policies on foreclosure have been virtually identical to those of Bush: banker friendly and homeowner unfriendly. Millions have lost their homes thanks to his betrayal.

All of his policies in the mythical war on terror are simple extentions of the Bush era policies of onconstitutional usurpations of power, spying on innocent Americans, continuation of torture while pretending he ended it, secretly kidnapping people all over the world and holding them endlessly incommunicado outside the rule of law and much more. These are betrayals of his clear promises to end all those abuses and usurpations and return the rule of law to the US.

The day after his inauguration he promised that "transparency will be the hallmark of my Presidency" and has since pursued policies even less transparent, more secretive and vindictive even than those of the Bush regime. That's a massive lie, flip flop and betrayal.

He appointed the catfood commission stacked with people who were known enemies of social security and medicate in an attempt to put both of those bedrock Democratic programs up on the chopping block. His effort was thwarted by massive opposition in DC and across the country. His pledges to maintain both those programs are betrayed by that action as well as his many very Republicans statements about needing to address social security which is perfectly sound. That is a betrayal of the very heart of the New Deal and our Democratic heritage.

I could go on with literally hundreds of other instances. All of these things are facts.

And, by the way, I have been served on every conceivable committee, knocked on countless doors, made innumerable phone calls, stood at the polls, attended monthly meetings and all that since I about 1970 when I was 12. I think that qualifies as being in the trenches.

It would take a long time and

Resistance — Fri, 25 Feb 2011 03:32:44 +0000

In reply to ANY American buying an

It would take a long time and a lot of change to even get back to a place where you can threaten people with that.

Are you saying it's too late? Corporations have already won?

ANY American buying an

artappraiser — Fri, 25 Feb 2011 03:20:47 +0000

In reply to God help the American worker

ANY American buying an imported car or product, should move to that country of origin; since they want to support the foreign Nation financially, over their own fellow American

This is an argument that is not taken seriously by many as it's not currently possible to buy something like an American-made computer or or a computer made completely in Shanghai or Germany for that matter. The parts are made in different places around the world and usually assembled in yet another place. It would take a long time and a lot of change to even get back to a place where you can threaten people with that.

And what's your opinion of these American jobs created by foreigners:

Hyundai's Swift Growth Lifts Alabama's Economy
The car maker laid down roots and provided jobs for thousands in Alabama as local textile mills closed.

where there might be a significant number of American workers damn happy with the pay and benefits and damn happy if Americans are buying the cars these Americans make there like they are hotcakes (probably not 100% American made parts but the article implies they are certainly heading in that direction with continually starting up suppliers in the U.S., too.) And also some of those maybe not looking forward to the UAW's plans for them given Detroit's recent history and all.

God help the American worker

Resistance — Fri, 25 Feb 2011 03:11:54 +0000

In reply to Oh Resistance, King of

God help the American worker if you’re a representation, of the direction of the Democratic Party,

In all your vitriol about my character, did you ever seek to debate or agree with my contentions that the key to our financial freedom as Americans, lies with supporting American workers?

My opinion, the Exportation of Jobs and the importation of foreign goods have destroyed the middle class?

While you were painting whitewash, on the head stone of the Democratic Party, because they failed to represent the majority of the American middle class; the middle class workers left the democratic party

Let me remind you, it was a Democratic President that gave us NAFTA; a policy complicit in the destruction of the middle class.

Where is the Democratic Party on the issue of Jobs? More lip service; more smart- ass party hacks; telling me to work within the system?

ANY American buying an imported car or product, should move to that country of origin; since they want to support that foreign Nation financially, over their own fellow Americans.

I don’t want you to go away, the more you attack me; you prove why the Democrats continue to lose.

Don’t listen to me; I admit I don’t know as much as your highness does. Don’t listen to me because I’m sure not buying what you’re selling and either is the majority or the working class.

I don't know about that.

EmmaZahn — Fri, 25 Feb 2011 02:32:18 +0000

In reply to That was a joke, Emma.

I don't know about that. Sounds like spinning to make it sound better. In the clip I saw Barbara Walters was angry about them walking off and then lit into Bill O'Reilly herself.

Oh Resistance, King of

tmccarthy0 — Thu, 24 Feb 2011 22:20:40 +0000

In reply to TMcC is only reaping what was

Oh Resistance, King of Know-nothings, your arguments are weak, intellectually dishonest, and you paint yourself as incredibly judgmental, needing to find enemies in every corner. You stretch yourself to build straw men made of hate so you can find reasons that my work is wrong and not worthy. You call me a traitor as if that is acceptable. If you didn't have an enemy you would disappear into an abyss of hate. Oh my... you don't like me, wow that hurts. In case you cannot tell Resistance, that line was IRONY.

You don't want to work to change anything and you want to yell at me because I stand up and work for what I believe in, and to top things off you write tl;dr diatribes attempting to shut me up, then you jump to where you think I shop and what I drive to what end Resistance, seriously, to what end? What is your end game? Do you do this so I won't come back here? I just want to know WTF? Are you calling me unAmerican once again by insinuating I shop at unAmerican places and drive unAmerican cars when you literally know nothing about me, about where I shop, or what I drive? I don't know man you are working awfully hard to continually call me unAmerican and a traitor and all that stuff and it still makes me think you are a miserable excuse for a human being.

For one solution; turn the

Resistance — Thu, 24 Feb 2011 21:59:08 +0000

In reply to Solutions, Resistance. What

For one solution; turn the protests in Wisconsin and Ohio into a march on Washington. Overturn at the National level, these detrimental trade agreements, NOW

Where do you stand Democrat?

Tell Corporate America, "for even considering trying to overturn collective bargaining YOU will pay a price" .

Turn the tables. NOW before the next election, where do our Representatives stand?

Maybe when Corporate America sees the ground swell of discontent and the spreading fire is about to consume Corporate Americas (Exporting jobs and importing foreign goods fattening their purses) they'll tell other States considering right to work laws.

"Back off..... The people are agitated enough to stop our money machine"

When the Republicans tell us, we need to pay down the deficit, tell them we agree; raise the revenues through Duties and the Tariffs.

If you don’t want to pay the taxes…….. on these foreign goods, don't buy them.

Tax yourself if you buy these goods, how simple is that. We didn’t force you to buy them,

The Tea Party wants to be free; they want our sovereignty back. These folks are the same people who thought Free trade was wrong.

Join forces with them, just as the Democrats and the Tea Party cut defense spending in Boners State.

Use the TEA PARTY to accomplish what we want. We can find a common ground with these folks.

STOP THE EXPORTING OF JOBS, raise duties and Taxes on the importation of foreign goods, to strengthen America.

Do you think the Washington DC Democrats want to stop the Exporting of Jobs, or is it just lip service? Find out NOW before the next election cycle, before we become fooled again.

If We the working class don't get industry to return to America, we are doomed.

It's worth noting that our

Anonymous — Thu, 24 Feb 2011 21:49:21 +0000

In reply to Liberals Don't Persuade

It's worth noting that our country wasn't founded with a party system, and many of our founding fathers correctly predicted it would be our undoing. There are rotten apples *and* patriots on both sides.

Solutions, Resistance. What

Ramona — Thu, 24 Feb 2011 21:24:27 +0000