dagblog - Comments for "The meaning of “socialism” in American politics"

That is such a sweet-sad

EmmaZahn — Sat, 19 Mar 2011 18:45:50 +0000

In reply to Got an intriguing anecdotal

That is such a sweet-sad story. "Now we're somebody." How thoroughly indoctrinated we all are that our value or worth is contingent on what we do or what we own.

Good for them for joining forces. I really hope someone in the group is a good leader because, well, we've all probably experienced owner associations. Enough said about that. :)

Got an intriguing anecdotal

artappraiser — Sat, 19 Mar 2011 18:14:50 +0000

In reply to Don't have time to do a

Got an intriguing anecdotal example for you.

From a recent NYT Home & Garden Section article on a trend of non-profit coops being formed by trailer park residents to buy their land so they no longer have to rent it and be subject to the insecurity of rents being raised or land being sold: At More Mobile-Home Parks, a Greater Sense of Security...March 17, 2011 - By Loren Berlin-

This quote at the end was especially striking:

Gaining title to the land is also fostering a new sense of pride. “Now we’re somebody,” said Terri Aker, 53, a machine operator at a calendar factory. “We’re owners.”

Now we're somebody--king of their castle, owners of land, lieges, not serfs. Don't miss Aker's picture, she's a stereotyper's dream, and that would certainly not be as a "commie"

Don't have time to do a

EmmaZahn — Thu, 17 Mar 2011 19:14:25 +0000

In reply to but not to you or Beetlejuice

Don't have time to do a proper job, will just throw out some quick thoughts..

Nice little cluster bomb following that statement. Made my brain synapses light up like a practically perfect pinball game. D

1) As you say, the appeal of property ownership to our immigrant ancestors is perfectly understandable considering the circumstances they left and those they found here. For example, my own European ancestors are > 90% Scots and most were here prior to 1776 with the last arriving in 1795 having been born on the journey here from Ulster. Their more or less forced emigration from Scotland and Ulster was the result of the Clearances and rack-renting, respectively. These in turn were the result of primogeniture and entail in determining property rights in Britain. Small wonder that property rights were so significant to them and continue to be to us.

2) I don't think most have any problem with socialism. It is the Socialist bogeyman that scares them and he is a just a straw man. Unfortunately, a thoroughly internalized straw bogeyman. I think the word will eventually be redeemed but for now it would be better to counter it with synonyms. There are still quite a few electric cooperatives around here. Although they are mostly name-only cooperatives nowadays, they do send out itty-bitty dividend checks every year or two to keep the illusion and regulations alive.

3) I agree that the biggest unintended consequence of Medicare is our present unsustainable healthcare system. While I do favor a basic single-payer plan, it cannot be just a bigger version of what we already have because what we have is healthcare hell. Been there. Now staying away from it as long as possible. Not a good situation.

Hi Chris. Yes better. Still

EmmaZahn — Thu, 17 Mar 2011 04:31:37 +0000

In reply to Hi Emma. Hope you are feeling

Hi Chris. Yes better. Still limited movement and stamina.

It is also interesting to me

EmmaZahn — Thu, 17 Mar 2011 04:30:29 +0000

In reply to but not to you or Beetlejuice

It is also interesting to me that you and I do seem to share similiar points of view on many things despite being on opposite sides of so many cultural fault lines. Not that we always agree. :)

More later -- I tried to form some other thoughts but failed. Bedtime.

I agree SS and medicare are

Obey — Thu, 17 Mar 2011 03:03:17 +0000

In reply to And I think you are the one

I agree SS and medicare are popular because people feel they 'own' or 'have earned' them by paying for them. But ... um .... many policies are popular without being sold as relating to property rights. I realize this is an almost insultingly obvious point, but you seem to be missing it, so I thought I-d mention it.

Medicaid, for one. Food stamps. The National Security State. The whole HCR bill - universal health care - was pushed on grounds of basic human rights. Not property. Finreg - pushed on grounds of economic prudence, not property. The stimulus - apart from the tax cut part - was very much not sold on the basis of property rights.

I honestly have no idea what you are driving at.

There is even a great

cmaukonen — Thu, 17 Mar 2011 02:52:24 +0000

In reply to This is interesting. What

There is even a great NewYorker cartoon out there that jokingly defines that as someone who is cheap but likes to sleep around. :D

Sounds like a progressive to me. They even have a car insurance company named after them.

Hi Emma. Hope you are feeling

cmaukonen — Thu, 17 Mar 2011 02:48:50 +0000

In reply to The meaning of “socialism” in American politics

Hi Emma. Hope you are feeling better back wise. Good post. Who said anything about this country made sense...or the people in it for that matter.

And I think you are the one

artappraiser — Thu, 17 Mar 2011 02:47:06 +0000

In reply to an elite effete view...Not

And I think you are the one grasping for straws. Emma's post was bringing up the use and meaning of the word socialism in this country and why people react to it the way they do, that to get popular support for something socialistic you have to reference or involve the love of personal property rights somehow. I.E.., Social Security is popular because it was set up like individual accounts that you pay into and get back at retirement time. And that whole "social security" aspect of SSI and SSDI is downplayed, never played up, how some of the money goes to survivors, disabled etc way beyond them or relatives having paid in., because then it would be "socialsim," and less popular.

Look at my link to the discussion where Dan commented, I have a quote from Upton Sinclair there that is verry applicable, starting with The American People will take Socialism, but they won’t take the label...

an elite effete view...Not

Obey — Thu, 17 Mar 2011 02:31:36 +0000

In reply to but not to you or Beetlejuice

an elite effete view...

Not sure why you think we're effete now, ... but anyhow I don't think study of history is going to help decide who of us is right. It's more mundane things like whether and what kinds of government spending people want to cut, and what tax rates they consider appropriate. People seem fine with higher tax rates on the rich, for instance. I think that goes in the fiscal progressive column. People want more government regulation, not less. and so on.

If you start waxing poetic about the first settlers and their wonderful dreams and aspirations while you ignore ... current voters and their policy preferences, you're grasping for straws.