dagblog - Comments for "OK I ADMIT IT. I''M GLAD FOR OUR NO FLY ZONE"

Canuck; glad you liked it.

we are stardust — Sat, 19 Mar 2011 16:01:35 +0000

In reply to Excellent link, stardust. To

Canuck; glad you liked it. Levine has been consistently smart, and seemingly pretty wise in his editorials at Al Jazeera throughout the Arab Spring movements. He knows the nations and plenty of history well, and has even been a bit prescient in anticipating events and moves by the various players.

On this thread and others, I’ve been discouraged that some of the old beliefs and memes about the Arabic world are still in place. Throughout the progression starting with the Jasmine Revolution, we’ve been given such an overwhelming opportunity to open our minds to a different understanding of the histories, not only of which dictatorial regimes have been de facto client states of the US, but the debunking of the theory of Arab Exceptionalism, for instance. Or that because their leaders had quashed rebellions in the past, that there were still underground movements training and planning for the days when the winds of freedom might signal critical mass for successful uprisings, even though the end results might take different forms, like for Algeria: a Constitutional Monarchy might be enough for now.

When I consider Flavius’s trust that the CIA has hipped Obama to certain facts that cause him to reverse his position of support for those seeking democracy in Bahrain, for instance, it depresses me. One, that anyone with a brain hasn’t learned that the CIA has teamed up with JSOC and private contractors like Blackwater and are essentially running their own agendas (or whomever gives the orders), or if they are under Presidential/Defense orders, they are so covert as to be beyond scary, astounds me. If the Raymond Davis debacle in Pakistan didn’t prove it, I can’t think what would.

And two, that the media and the Powers that Be have been so successful about Iranians as Devils Incarnate that some of us can believe that other Shia are about to become Islamist Terrorists, not the Freedom Fighters they actually are. We seem slower than I’d imagined to grasp that what our leaders assure us is ‘good for our country’ as Flavius mentions might be good for arms and weapons and fighter jet sales, or for securing the oil (that Wall Street will speculate on to increase the prices we’ll pay), but is not healthy for us in the long term, i.e., making enemies of the brown people all over the globe who see our policies as subjugating them in favor of keeping useful dictators in power, or forcing neoliberal economic policies that promote more and more radical wealth disparities.

Yemen, yeah, I get the administration is almost coherent there: the government pretends they haven’t okayed our drone kills, and keeps the money we send. So maybe the protestors are inconvenient to our agenda. Check. And I’ll dodge the craziness of our actions in Pakistan (not brokering peace between P and India over Kashmir, etc.), but they have NUKES, for godssakes, and we should engage more comprehensively.

I get why Levine thinks we are becoming irrelevant; but the trouble is that we still have enormous power, thus potential to screw things up even worse, which we seem destined to do. Mind-boggling.

Excellent link, stardust. To

acanuck — Sat, 19 Mar 2011 05:44:57 +0000

In reply to I think where we differ is

Excellent link, stardust. To a large extent the Shia-Sunni split, like the threat of Al-Qa'ida, is something Mideast autocrats hype to keep the West on their side and any potential opposition fragmented. Here, Saudi King Abdullah actually is coming to the aid of a fellow Sunni despot. But there was no sectarian element to the Egyptian revolt, yet Abdullah was just as keen to fund Mubarak's bid to crush it. Conclusion: tyrants stick together because they fear their own people. Because of oil dependence, they're the allies the U.S. has chosen for itself in the Gulf.

I think where we differ is

we are stardust — Sat, 19 Mar 2011 03:46:32 +0000

In reply to I don't agreet I believe some

I think where we differ is that what matters to you is whether or not 'Obama is a good or bad man'; what matters to me is whether his policies (and in this case foreign policies) are coherent/good or not. Mark Levine sheds some light on the history of the democratic movement in Bahrain, and the makeup of those involved culturally, religiously, and other differences. And no, they are no more rascals (and maybe less so by your nervous characterizations of potential terrorists or whatever, than the rebels in Libya. I will leave this link and bow out, except to say that what he is NOT doing may determine the fate of northern Africa, and provide some serious consequences to us, that will make us less safe, and endanger many lives in those nations as he keeps doing business with the tyrants. That's all.

http://english.aljazeera.net/indepth/opinion/2011/03/20113179218339808.html#

I don't agreet I believe some

Flavius — Sat, 19 Mar 2011 03:24:00 +0000

In reply to Well Juan was speaking of

I don't agreet I believe some alternate version of the facts when they suit me. Or at least no more than is normal.

For example I'll copy your text above and indicate where I agree or disagree

...............................................................................................................................

He also pointed out that it was Obama stopping the Brits and the French from interceding all along, meaning at the UN, too.YES

And it's his administration via Gates and Clinton who are doing nothing in Bahrain YES since the Saudis, who have brought in tanks and troops to defend the government against those rascally YOU MEAN THIS IRONICALLY BUT I THINK IT POSSIBLE THEY ARE RASCALS OR IF NOT RASCALS ,THEY MIGHT BE BRAVE IDEALISTIC PEOPLE WHO WAN'T TO OVERTHROW THEIR OPPRESSIVE REGIME BUT HAVING DONE SO INTEND TO OPPOSE US. PERHAPS BY ALLYING THEMSELVES WITH SHIA IRAN.

75% Shia majority democracy-seekersessentailly are untouchable, since they control oil and buy scads of our weapons and fighter planes.

Yemeni protestors being murdered wholesale? Not a peep out of Obama YES and the West.

.................................................................................................................................

SO I DON'T BELIEVE SOME ALTERNATE VERSION OF THE FACTS. BUT WE DIFFER IN WHAT WE THINK ABOUT OBAMA'S PERFORMANCE. YOU BELIEVE HE'S DOING WRONG. I , HE'S DOING WHAT HE THINKS IS RIGHT FOR THE COUNTRY.

IN ALL THOSE CASES I'D HAVE LIKED IT IF HE'D DONE DIFFERENTLY.BUT I BELIEVE THERE'S A GOOD CHANCE THAT HE IS RELUCTANTLY DOING THINGS HE HATES BUT THINKS ARE BEST FOR THE COUNTRY.

JUST FOR DISCUSSION,ASSUME YOU''RE PRESIDENT, AND ARE TOLD BY THE CIA THAT THE BRAVE YOUNG SHIAS CHALLENGING THE BAHRAIN MONARCHY IF SUCCESSFUL WOULD ALLY THEMSELVES WITH IRAN AND TOGETHER THEY WOULD NURTURE TERRORISTS WHO WOULD BLOW UP THE SEARS TOWER

WOULD YOU RELUCTANTLY DECIDE TO ASSIST THE MONARCHY.?

WHEN OBAMA ACTS IN A WAY THAT IS DIFFERENT FROM MY PARTICULAR PREFERENCES I DON'T ASSUME THAT MEANS HE'S A BAD MAN, OR A GOOD ONE WHO SOLD OUT. I ASSUME THAT IT'S POSSIBLE THAT HE HAS INFORMATION THAT I DON'T S0 I SUSPEND JUDGEMENT AND CONTINUE TO SUPPORT HIM WHILE WAITING FOR WIKPEDIA OR SOMEONE TO PROVIDE ME WITH FACTS WHICH WOULD CHANGE MY MIND.

Well Juan was speaking of

we are stardust — Sat, 19 Mar 2011 01:33:51 +0000

In reply to You're right to question my

Well Juan was speaking of Mousa al-Sadr, who was murdered and martyred by Gadaffi in 1978. He also pointed out that it was Obama stopping the Brits and the French from interceding all along, meaning at the UN, too. And it's his administration via Gates and Clinton who are doing nothing in Bahrain since the Saudis, who have brought in tanks and troops to defend the government against those rascally 75% Shia majority democracy-seekers essentailly are untouchable, since they control oil and buy scads of our weapons and fighter planes.

Yemeni protestors being murdered wholesale? Not a peep out of Obama and the West.

You do continue to believe some alternate version of the facts when they don;'t suit you; it's hard to understand or respect.

You're right to question my

Flavius — Sat, 19 Mar 2011 00:59:08 +0000

In reply to The link is only to Juan's

You're right to question my statement.

I was reacting to Cole's tone rather than any specific statement. (Having reread him I still feel the same). But in fairness to the readers I should have indicated that I was making a subjective judgement.

In his post below Eissenstat's Cole describes a probable murder by Quaddafi of someone of whom Cole approves.. Including that anecdote seemed to me as Cole's way of signalling approval. But it was hardly conclusive.

Good catch.

The link is only to Juan's

we are stardust — Fri, 18 Mar 2011 22:36:35 +0000

In reply to He

The link is only to Juan's website. In which post did you read his approval? The only thing I saw was him asking if it were too late. I'm curious, because he has been adamant up to now that the US, NATO, should not intervene. Maybe now that it's a UN decision?

Libya's initial reaction to

acanuck — Fri, 18 Mar 2011 20:45:40 +0000

In reply to OK, so acanuck indicates that

Libya's initial reaction to the UN resolution was to denounce the vote as a violation of its sovereignty, but to at least nominally comply: it closed Libyan airspace and declared a ceasefire. Listening to Obama this afternoon, I wondered whether and how he would counter that tactic.

What Obama did was to spell out in specific detail what a ceasefire had to include:

Qaddafi must stop his troops from advancing on Benghazi, pull them back from Ajdabiya, Misrata, and Zawiya, and establish water, electricity and gas supplies to all areas. ... Let me be clear, these terms are not negotiable. These terms are not subject to negotiation.

News about which side controls what have been murky and conflicting. Like WW II battles in the Libyan desert, there are few meaningful front lines. But what I have gleaned is that Gaddafi's forces do control parts of both Misrata and Ajdabiya: a military base and an oil complex, if not more. As for Zawiya, Gaddafi appears to have recaptured all of it from the rebels a full week ago.

So Obama is insisting that Gaddafi not only stop his troops' advance but actually abandon territory he currently controls -- and, as the CiC said twice -- it's "not negotiable." That's a poison pill I can't see Gaddafi swallowing. So unless Seif is in last-ditch talks on an exit strategy, the metal is about to hit the fan.

Years ago Lady Violet Bonham

Flavius — Fri, 18 Mar 2011 14:55:27 +0000

In reply to He

Years ago Lady Violet Bonham Carter. reminisced on the BBC about the beginning of the first World War ..

The British Government,under her father , was a coalition ,split about how it should respond to Germany's threatening actions. The uneasy compromise was that Britain would declare war as soon as Germany.took some offensive action. But it didn't.

Finally Asquith capitulating to pressure from (the always pro-war )Churchill and the other Tories, instructed the Foreign Secretary to prepare a note declaring war and send it to the German ambassador. Who it happened was a strong anglophile , who'd been desperately trying to prevent war. Asquith wasn't able to cite some agressive german action so relied on some less powerful argument and anticipated problems ahead with his coalition partners.

At exactly this moment Reuters telegraphed that a german machine gun post had fired over the border wounding a Belgian. Which was probably true altho it's doubtful any effort was made to confirm it. Acquith immediately ordered the declaration of War revised to state that the UK was declaring war in response to this intolerable attack on its ally. Lord Grey gave it to Harold Nicholson a young attache who's position was chiefly based on his social connections.Who later told his friend , the then young Miss Asquith..

He was directed to deliver the revised Declaration of War to the German ambassador and .oh by the way , get back the first one...

As Nicholson crossed London the news was out. Church bells were ringing , Patriotic songs heard from every pub where the patrons were out on the patios on this warm summer evening.

Well known at the ambassador's having dined there frequently, he was admitted.and when the butler said the ambassador was upstairs in his bed room Nicholson went up and knocked on the door. A muffled response from within asked why he was there. He said, bringing a note from the Foreign Secretary that had to be delivered immediately. The ambassador said " I thought I'd received the last communication I would ever receive from Lord Grey ".

Nicholson entered. The ambassador was lying on his bed, sobbing.,the unopened letter on his table. Nicholson swapped notes and left. And the war began.

Probably without a No Fly Zone.

OK, so acanuck indicates that

Flavius — Fri, 18 Mar 2011 10:13:42 +0000

In reply to I hope this UN vote is not

OK, so acanuck indicates that you are a Canuck. Got it.