dagblog - Comments for "What Are We Saying When We Say What We Say?"

A very thoughtful response. I

rmrd0000 — Wed, 13 Apr 2011 04:32:15 +0000

A very thoughtful response. I have often wondered why White Southerners cannot find the Re-Unification of the nation a reason to celebrate. Both Blacks and Whites suffered during and after the War. The current way that Civil War or secession celebrations are structured by defintion ignores the suffering of one group. Blacks are excluded except as entertainment. That is simply disgusting and racist. There just has to be a better way to deal with the situation. The South has grown by leaps and bounds. Whites have prospered and Blacks have prospered. Why does the South have to celebrate something that is so divisive and not reflective of where most of the South is today?

The CNN poll says that 40% odf Southerners don't belive that Slavery was the major factor of the War. That means that a 20+ majority believe that Slavery was the major factor and might be willing to support a celebration of something other than the War. That way other groups could participate as equal partners with Whites.

Slavery while antiquated was

Desider — Wed, 13 Apr 2011 01:36:24 +0000

In reply to Ah but it wasn't just about

Slavery while antiquated was still quite profitable in 1861. It was these competing factors - international condemnation with tons of export money - that made the situation intractable. If it were antiquated and unprofitable, it would have been easy to phase out. People follow their pocket books. Even the North. It wasn't until the South left that the North really acted - not about slavery, but about leaving.

Well, you do make a good

Desider — Wed, 13 Apr 2011 01:32:06 +0000

In reply to Thanks for the information. I

Well, you do make a good point, that if a slave block is a bad idea for a school, how does it fit into the general "celebration"?

(Point 1 might be that children can be quite traumatized by something like this, so I wouldn't do anything where the parents could be there and have control, but that's also a quibble - college sorority slave raffles are equally in poor taste)

As I noted on a 2nd thread, Southerners are celebrating the slaughter of hundreds of thousands of their own as they tried to leave the US peacefully. Somehow I don't think the grey outfits and the rebel flags bring that horror home, nor the horror of slavery. It's more a renaissance festival, re-enacting "chivalrous knights" who went off to Jerusalem sacking and murdering along the way.

Except if you're an Arab, the target of these chivalrous knights was your people. If you're celebrating Columbus, you're celebrating both a discovery and the on-set of a brutal conquest of 2 continents, not that the Aztecs and Incans weren't already brutal when the Spanish landed. Cowboys and Indians of course has the victim as Indian - maybe Stardust has some anecdotes on how Native Americans deal with this childhood game with a sinister under-current.

It's late and I'm tired, and I don't have a good answer for you, rmrd, just more muddying analogies.

Thanks for the information. I

rmrd0000 — Wed, 13 Apr 2011 00:13:46 +0000

In reply to For the record, I was

Thanks for the information. I actually enjoyed the discussion. I think what I really found fascination is that people who are as rigid as I am in their opinins about certain issues feel that I am the one locked in a box.

I think the example given about the Black schoolchildren "sold" as slaves represents the same dilemma one finds in the secession celebrations. If secession was legal and it's legacy is to be honored, where do Black fit in during the celebration other than as a slave?

Thanks again.

For the record, I was

Michael Wolraich — Tue, 12 Apr 2011 21:16:00 +0000

In reply to Because I was saving the poll

For the record, I was similarly confused about the poll interpretation. Unlike TPM, threads never die at dagblog, so it's probably not a great place to store personal material. (Wolfrum learned that lesson the hard way after he posted his masturbation log.)

And also for the record, the Canadian lens is not exactly human. It has evil in it. Like an orc.

Because I was saving the poll

rmrd0000 — Tue, 12 Apr 2011 20:49:16 +0000

In reply to Somehow this all seems to be

Because I was saving the poll for my own purposes, I dry not point out that the conclusions an those of the person with the byline, not mine. The interpretation of poll came from a website called the Root. It was the viewpoint of one African American author, not me. What I did find interesting is that:) I was seeing things though A Black perspective.

Note that quinn doesn't hide his Canadian lens or Desider his White Southen lens. I am proud of my Black lens. It is Just as human as the Canadian and Southern ones. The implication is that they are somehow more objective and that I am blinded by my Black lens. I have noted the absence of Hispanic, etc voices as well so I reject assertions of racial myopia.I just bring a different voice to the table.

Both quinn and Desider proved myopic enough to miss the byline of the actual person who wrote the review of the CNN poll.

Somehow this all seems to be

Elusive Trope — Tue, 12 Apr 2011 20:15:27 +0000

In reply to NOW I AM PO'ed. I post a poll

Somehow this all seems to be a fitting end to this thread as it lurches to its not quite end. I would say that neither Quinn nor Desider attacked for posting the poll, but each in their own way found something to quibble about in the conclusions you drew from the poll. And in my defense, the reason I posted the slave auction re-enactment was because it happened as a result of a teacher trying to teach a lesson about the Civil War.

Part of this blog is about the Civil War. But it is also how we are responding to this historical event in the present day, and how these responses can be used to maybe shed some light on the dynamic of public discourse. I think the teacher in Virginia is a great example because she was it seems trying to do the right thing. It was a Desider said, a "brainfart." (Even one of the mothers of a student who was "sold" called her a nice lady and just wondered what was she thinking) The road to hell is paved...It just shows how difficult it is for people to negotiate the often times tricky path of discourse regarding controversial topics.

NOW I AM PO'ed. I post a poll

rmrd0000 — Tue, 12 Apr 2011 19:27:11 +0000

In reply to Oh God, how many times must

NOW I AM PO'ed. I post a poll on the topic of pwecwptions of the Civil War from CNN and get attacked by you and quinn. Trope posts about a slave re-enactment and is treated much differently. You are a hypocrite and a farce. The post is about the Civil War. The poll was about the Civil War.

I'm glad that I chose this blog to save! Your mental gymnastics here are fascinating. Thanks for providing much needed humor.

Here are two different blogs

we are stardust — Tue, 12 Apr 2011 19:16:32 +0000

In reply to An interesting poll:Civil

Here are two different blogs on the Civil War, somewhat opposing, at least:

http://www.correntewire.com/truth_about_confederacy

http://my.firedoglake.com/davidswanson/2011/04/11/lies-about-the-u-s-civ...

Both are worth reading, IMO.

You mentioned Cornell West the other day, more in the context, I think, of blacks in disagreement with each other. Wattree loathes him; and the horse he figgers he rode in on, which he names Tavis Smiley.

I love West. Until recently I had forgotten one of the premier reasons, and please hear me on this:

He always mentions our Native American brothers and sisters in the mix of the fucked-over by America, War, and the Powers that be. And he gets that Native Americans suffer in obscurity: most Americans doubt they even exist, and the Indian Trust Account theft was just 'fixed' under this administration for pennies on the dollar, and the Lakota still haven't gotten their stolen lands back.

Our local Ute Tribe just got running water for the first time several years ago, and the average life expectancy is maybe 29; most tribes live so far under the poverty level it ain't funny, and Indian Health Services are a travesty. It's small wonder that many tribes really do want sovereinty and permission to help themselves.

Crazy thing happened when all the tribes were forced onto reservations: many times extractive resources were discovered, and their treaty-guarantted lands were stolen again.

You go to powows all over the Four Corners and fucking wonder why Native Americans are so patriotic still that they display American flags everywhere, and speak of having served their country. I guess it's just who they are.

I gave both you and Brew a chance to follow that line of thought, but neither of you bit. Maybe you didn't even notice. I used to know how many tribes were totally eradicated during the late 20th century, but many, and almost all in Florida and California.

Two reasons I coordinated county campaigns for Jesse Jackson were his unswavering devotion for family farms (he read the tea-leaves back then, even) and his Rainblow Coalition, which hasn't panned out well, but he sees now as an ongoing part of the Class War in America. Not many predicted how quickly the poor and disappearing middle classes should have/may have joined in their struggle for economic justice and social equality.

I'd love it if one of your take-aways from this thread were that many of us suffer, and especially people of color. But give some love to our Red brothers and sisters, and brown people we kill so easily, and tan people we deport so easily.

And yeah; I hate the asshat evil White Supremacists, too; I think we all do. But this last stand will be over soon, IMO.

Oh God, how many times must

Desider — Tue, 12 Apr 2011 18:44:36 +0000

In reply to Okay...one teacher in

Oh God, how many times must someone try this ridiculously bad idea? Once a year is it that someone has this brainfart? Or is it more? One year it was even better - a fraternity would sell off black sorority girls in a slave trade re-enactment. I mean, who would complain about that?

There is no end to human stupidity.