dagblog - Comments for "Wiki-Cables Prove US Pressured UN in Defense of Israel"

Well that's a callout for

Desider — Fri, 22 Apr 2011 16:57:32 +0000

In reply to Nah; keep em; they might come

Well that's a callout for Bwakfat for sure.

Cheers

A Guy Called LULU — Fri, 22 Apr 2011 15:59:18 +0000

In reply to Code Below: bslev in red,

Cheers

Nah; keep em; they might come

we are stardust — Fri, 22 Apr 2011 14:59:21 +0000

In reply to Sure I have shame and decency

Nah; keep em; they might come in handy one day at your daughters' weddings. Help ya keep the barbs to a minimum acceptable level during the toasts. (Damn; make us a vidoe of those, won't you?)

As for being a herd-thinning reader-killer, you're right. I thunk it was maybe my breath, not my musings, but didn't want to say so. But since it's just us here.... ;o)

Sure I have shame and decency

Desider — Fri, 22 Apr 2011 14:11:22 +0000

In reply to See how you are? I happen to

Sure I have shame and decency - how much ya wanna pay for 'em? Come real cheap, hardly ever used.

(Better straight-hominid than straight-arachnid. Spiderwoman? A sequel still to be made)

See how you are? I happen to

we are stardust — Fri, 22 Apr 2011 14:05:39 +0000

In reply to Yes, you have the black thumb

See how you are? I happen to mention just one time here on the boards (well...maybe twice...) my severe antipathy to (Arrrrggg; ish!) Spidees, and here ya go likening me to one! Have you no shame, sir? Have you no decency?

(Stardust instantly regrets playing the straight-man in the comedy act...)

Code Below: bslev in red,

Bruce Levine — Fri, 22 Apr 2011 13:41:10 +0000

In reply to "Klein in her statement

Code Below: bslev in red, lulu in italics and, bslev reply in regular type:

I don't claim that Americans or Israelis have not engaged in criminal conduct in the prosecution of foreign policy or wars. I believe that the United States is capable of investigating itself, as do I believe that the Israelis are capable of investigating themselves, and I also believe that some of those investigations were probably not done as well as they could have been. As I read Klein, she justifies her belief that Israel should be the subject of a worldwide BDS campaign based in large measure on the criminality of Israel. If I have properly read her, I don't believe she can point to evidence to explain the unique threshold that Israel has attained in this area to warrant such a tactic being applied against the Israeli people. I don't see calls, thankfully, for a worldwide BDS campaign against the American people for the acts of its government.

"I believe in justice the way we like to think we mete in out in the United States, with equal standards applied to all nations, i.e, including Israel."

You may like to think, and hope others will believe, that we mete out justice with equal standards to all nations, including Israel, but I think that idea lacks foundation and assumes facts that are not in evidence. Actually, there is overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

I was addressing the standing of the UNHRC to conduct an investigation of Israel. You swerve to American foreign policy and what you and many others perceive as a lack of even-handedness with respect to Israel. While it doesn't address my point, I believe you and others make a point that warrants a response, and that's why I recommended a book in my comment that I believe is the most comprehensive analysis of the so-called Israel Lobby that I have come across.

"I believe that standing behind platitudes and assertions of criminality, apartheid and other labels is both wrong and unhelpful."

I do not know about platitudes, but standing behind assertions of criminality, when those assertions are correct, is right whether it is helpful or unhelpful and even when it is unlikely to make one bit of difference regarding actions in the future.

OK.

"P.S. Added bonus question. Is it appropriate to question why allegations about Israeli criminality with respect to the war in Gaza are different in kind than similar more muted allegations of criminality, in particular in the American, Canadian and European left, with respect to Afghanistan, Pakistan, and Iraq?"

Have you really missed the widespread questioning of the legitimacy and legality of actions by the U.S. and the "Coalition of the Willing"? Do you think that Israel is the only country that gets criticized for its actions? Maybe the allegations being of "a different kind than similar more muted allegations" somehow explains what you mean, but, as it is stated, the meaning of the question is not at all clear to me . If what you mean is that it is not appropriate to question Israeli criminality for some or any reason then just say so.

First, I don't see widespread, if any, calls for a UNHRC investigation into the conduct of the United States or any of its allies for anything. Neither do I make such calls. Second, should you choose to suggest that somehow I don't think it's appropriate to question Israeli criminality, then so be it.

"Is it fair to ask if there is a double standard when it comes to the only country in the world that has a Jewish majority? "

It is fair to ask anything, imho. You have stated quite clearly that you see a double standard but seem to think that it hurts Israel. I think that to the extent that there is a double standard, in our perception of other nations and our reaction to the actions of other nations, that that double standard goes very heavily in Israel's favor here in the U.S. I also think that it is completely OK, and is easily understandable, that you have an emotional attachment to Israel and to Jewish people worldwide. It shows that you are subject to extremely common human nature. But,does your head explode when the Turks deny the Armenian genocide? Israel is not "special" for me. Israel, to me, is a foreign country, and as a people Jews are no more or less special, to me, than any other group of human beings which I try to have due respect and concern for. I hope that it is OK by you, or at least that it does not set you off too badly, that I criticize Israel when I think that criticism is due [whether I criticize other countries in the same breath or not] and that I criticize policies of my own government relating to Israel and speculate as to why those policies come about when I think other policies would better serve the interests of the U.S. and especially when I think those policies are demonstrations of a hurtful double standard held and often acted upon by my country, the country that tops my personal hierarchy of countries which I hope to see prosper and endure in an honorable way.

I also see merit in the argument made by some that the uncritical support of Israel by the U.S., no matter their action, has prolonged the non-resolution of the I/P conflict to the detriment of both sides.

I have given my reasons for why I believe that most of the world, and much of the American left and the so-called left applies a double standard to Israel. I stand by that and nothing that you write above addresses the reasons I give for my belief.

Yes, you have the black thumb

Desider — Fri, 22 Apr 2011 12:30:46 +0000

In reply to It seemed like forever since

Yes, you have the black thumb of blog gardens. Our Lady of the Wilted Vine. Perhaps should switch to a different brand of strychnine. Of course what you don't mention is like a black widow, you're killing off your readers as well. Fortunately they grow back or still seem in plenty supply. Nothing to cry about - someone needs to thin the herd.

"Klein in her statement

A Guy Called LULU — Fri, 22 Apr 2011 03:25:05 +0000

In reply to While I agree with Genghis

"Klein in her statement supporting BDS assumes as many do, facts about Israel's criminality that lack foundation and that are not in evidence."

I know with absolute certainty that forces of the United States of America have performed criminal acts in the prosecution of their foreign policy and their many wars. I believe with very high confidence that Israel has also done so. I cannot think of a country which has ever been a major player which I would not include in that category. Would you say that my beliefs in this area have been formed without evidence? Many countries are demonized daily for their actions. Israel is not some special abused case because it gets criticized.

"I believe in justice the way we like to think we mete in out in the United States, with equal standards applied to all nations, i.e, including Israel."

You may like to think, and hope others will believe, that we mete out justice with equal standards to all nations, including Israel, but I think that idea lacks foundation and assumes facts that are not in evidence. Actually, there is overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

"I believe that standing behind platitudes and assertions of criminality, apartheid and other labels is both wrong and unhelpful."

I do not know about platitudes, but standing behind assertions of criminality, when those assertions are correct, is right whether it is helpful or unhelpful and even when it is unlikely to make one bit of difference regarding actions in the future.

"P.S. Added bonus question. Is it appropriate to question why allegations about Israeli criminality with respect to the war in Gaza are different in kind than similar more muted allegations of criminality, in particular in the American, Canadian and European left, with respect to Afghanistan, Pakistan, and Iraq?"

Have you really missed the widespread questioning of the legitimacy and legality of actions by the U.S. and the "Coalition of the Willing"? Do you think that Israel is the only country that gets criticized for its actions? Maybe the allegations being of "a different kind than similar more muted allegations" somehow explains what you mean, but, as it is stated, the meaning of the question is not at all clear to me . If what you mean is that it is not appropriate to question Israeli criminality for some or any reason then just say so.

"Is it fair to ask if there is a double standard when it comes to the only country in the world that has a Jewish majority? "

It is fair to ask anything, imho. You have stated quite clearly that you see a double standard but seem to think that it hurts Israel. I think that to the extent that there is a double standard, in our perception of other nations and our reaction to the actions of other nations, that that double standard goes very heavily in Israel's favor here in the U.S. I also think that it is completely OK, and is easily understandable, that you have an emotional attachment to Israel and to Jewish people worldwide. It shows that you are subject to extremely common human nature. But,does your head explode when the Turks deny the Armenian genocide? Israel is not "special" for me. Israel, to me, is a foreign country, and as a people Jews are no more or less special, to me, than any other group of human beings which I try to have due respect and concern for. I hope that it is OK by you, or at least that it does not set you off too badly, that I criticize Israel when I think that criticism is due [whether I criticize other countries in the same breath or not] and that I criticize policies of my own government relating to Israel and speculate as to why those policies come about when I think other policies would better serve the interests of the U.S. and especially when I think those policies are demonstrations of a hurtful double standard held and often acted upon by my country, the country that tops my personal hierarchy of countries which I hope to see prosper and endure in an honorable way.
I also see merit in the argument made by some that the uncritical support of Israel by the U.S., no matter their action, has prolonged the non-resolution of the I/P conflict to the detriment of both sides.

It seemed like forever since

we are stardust — Fri, 22 Apr 2011 02:42:45 +0000

In reply to Hey Star:Why do you think you

It seemed like forever since anyone commented... I often have a knack of killing threads; must be something I say. ;o)

Damn; cry if you got 'em; tears are great windshield wipers of the soul, IMO. You are kind to say the other, Bruce. Made me tear up again for sure; I'm an easy mark, too. And I have a rule that no one near me cries alone. ;o)

Thanks for the good conversation, seriously.

Hey Star:Why do you think you

Bruce Levine — Fri, 22 Apr 2011 01:55:39 +0000

In reply to It seems I'm my own

Hey Star:

Why do you think you killed this thread? There aren't a heckuva lot of comments today anywhere. Thanks for the tunes and stuff, and hopefully I won't cry when I watch the video you post. On the other hand, I tend to tear up for Hallmark commercials, so I'm kind of an easy mark. You're a star around here in more than name.

Bruce