MURDER, POLITICS, AND THE END OF THE JAZZ AGE
by Michael Wolraich
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Hits of the Day
Honky Bitch Betsy Ross Shamed for Racist Connex - Yay Kap
By PeraclesPlease on Tue, 07/02/2019 - 4:34pm |URL:
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/nike-pulls-betsy-ross-flag-shoes-after-kaepernick-complaint-report-n1025626
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Comments
You used the h word! I'm trying to gin up some faux outrage but it's not coming.
So I will just go to what else popped into my mind: you can do revisionist history. But at a certain point it's got to make reasonable sense.Hot topic over the last century and a half or so in this country has been "state's rights" and whether it still should apply.
But there's no getting around what was up in July 4, 1776: it was thirteen motley "states" who banded together under some shared principles to fight a hegemon. Celebrate or not as is your wont-and it's fine if you don't like the idea it was then since this union changed a lot--but don't try to make it into something it wasn't.
by artappraiser on Tue, 07/02/2019 - 5:12pm
p.s. comes to mind if they came up with shoes with this flag meme from the same period instead, now I'd be sorely tempted by those and wouldn't give a damn that the 20th-century Tea Party tried to appropriate it.
by artappraiser on Tue, 07/02/2019 - 5:16pm
And it's kind of a poor sketch, but who needs realism when you're trying to incite to revolt?
by PeraclesPlease on Tue, 07/02/2019 - 5:41pm
The flag has been appropriated by white supremacists.
From the article:
There is a similar debate regarding the “OK” sign. The sign is used by Trump and other white supremacists.
https://theoutline.com/post/1428/the-ok-sign-is-becoming-an-alt-right-symbol?zd=1&zi=gzihcz6i
Companies respond to changing times. Uncle Ben was “promoted” to chairman of the board.
https://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/30/business/media/30adco.html
Aunt Jemima has a disturbing history but remains on the shelves.
https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2012/04/new-racism-museum-reveals-the-ugly-truth-behind-aunt-jemima/256185/
Edit to add:
https://blackamericaweb.com/2019/07/03/arizonas-governor-wants-to-take-nike-jobs-away-from-his-state-over-betsy-ross-flag-sneaker/
2nd Edit to add:
The Arizona city where the Nike plant would be built, still wants the plant.
Ducey has no authority in the allocation of the city’s funds, according to the Arizona Republic; instead, he sought to order the Arizona Commerce Authority to withdraw additional financial incentives that amounted to “up to $1 million.”
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2019/07/03/gop-governor-wants-cancel-nike-contract-city-its-headed-isnt-backing-down/?utm_term=.466f9211dda2
by rmrd0000 on Wed, 07/03/2019 - 8:52am
And because alt-right fuckers do something, what does it have to do with me? I didn't even know about it. If Proud Boys start showing deep fake videos of Harriet Tubman twerking, does that mean you'll ask to take her off the new $20 and stop using her name? I get the controversy over Woodrow Wilson's racist actions. This one just leaves me bewildered - no one's immune from this revisionist bullshit.
PS - and if you do the OK sign with a slo-mo "look at me" and cum-licking smirk on your face it means something different from just signalling okay. Not too tuff.
PPS - can't you respond without a ton of irrelevant blacksplaining? I get very well why Aunt Jemima isn't a flattering black profile for more progressive times, etc, etc. - most of us here have degrees, read, think. It has nothing to do with Betsy Ross.
by PeraclesPlease on Wed, 07/03/2019 - 8:57am
Nike decided that whitesplaining that they weren’t supporting the alt-right was not a good business strategy, so they pulled the shoe, removing themselves from any controversy. It’s the decision of the leadership of a company.
Betsy Ross and Aunt Jemima are part of a continuum. The flag has been appropriated and become offensive. Aunt Jemima was always offensive. Jemima remains on the box.
The bigger concern about Harriet Tubman is that a racist administration halted the process to have her image on the $20 bill.
Edit to add:
Perhaps this is generational
Your parents and grandparents may not have felt that Aunt Jemima was offensive.Times change. Jemima is now an offensive stereotype. Younger people, nothing the ties to the alt-right feel th e Ross flag is offensive. Times change.
by rmrd0000 on Wed, 07/03/2019 - 9:33am
Betsy Ross and Aunt Jemima aren't on a fucking continuum unless Aspergers counts as a historical movement. I said I fucking knew that Aunt Jemima was offensive, just like I knew Mammy and the "dont know nuffin bout burf n babies" girl were offensive, and dont need you guessing what my parents and grandparents felt. Stuck to one fycking theme, you history splattering shit disturber. And yes, Betsy Ross is part apocryphal, like much of history - who gives a shit - it keeps people interested a bit in something besides the boring mundane present until some dickwads shit all over it and ruin it for everyone. No, the Betsy flag wasn't appropriated because they can't have it just by playing with it, just like an aly-right guy wearing a tartan doesn't mean Scots abandon their history - that's not how things fucking work, whatever Kapaernick or you think. Bo Derek wore corn rows, I think Gwyneth Paltrow or some other skinny ass white actress wore corn rows - does that mean blacks can't wear cornrows anymore?
by PeraclesPlease on Wed, 07/03/2019 - 10:16am
BTW, kudos for ruining perhaps the only known active female participation in the American Revolution, aside from what, Dolly Madison's cookies?
by PeraclesPlease on Wed, 07/03/2019 - 10:57am
I disagree about the continuum. Aunt Jemima remains on the shelves despite being offensive. Kap made a suggestion given how the Betsy Ross flag was being used by white supremacists. He brought attention to an issue. White supremacists have appropriated things like Pepe the frog, the OK sign and now the Betsy Ross flag.
The creator of Pepe the frog killed the character because it was appropriated
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-intersect/wp/2017/05/08/pepe-the-frog-became-a-hate-symbol-now-hes-just-a-dead-hate-symbol/?utm_term=.0e7edaa1bdea
The ADL warns about using the OK sign
https://www.adl.org/education/references/hate-symbols/okay-hand-gesture
The corporate leadership at Nike made the corporate decision to abandon selling the shoe.
The Arizona Governor was ready to pull jobs out of the state. The impacted Arizona community wants the jobs.
White supremacist appropriation has an impact. It’s not about Kap. It’s not about me, This is solely about the white supremacists.
Edit to add:
Nothing that I said deserves name-calling and profanity
Aunt Jemima remains on shelves because we find it acceptable, a minor issue at best.
by rmrd0000 on Wed, 07/03/2019 - 11:12am
Bullshit - you bludgeon people every day with your take on history, yet any white history or harmless white female mythology is grist for your political correctness mill. so some stupid 2019 mithrrfuckers tried to coopt the story - fuck them, they can suck my dick - and so can Kapaernick - tell him to get back to serious business - people are dying and he's lost the plot now, just a sports brand rather than a serious activist.
by PeraclesPlease on Wed, 07/03/2019 - 12:11pm
The creator of an innocent cartoon killed off the character rather than let it be used by white supremacists. He did think in recognition of the power of the symbolism.
The ADL warns about using the OK sign because they recognize the power of white power symbolism.
The OK sign was flashed by the New Zealand killer.
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/new-zealand-mosque-shooting-suspect-smirks-flashes-white-power-sign-in-court_n_5c8cbe63e4b0db7da9f3b8f5
Nike responds to the symbolism of the Ross flag and wants no part of it.
It is serious business. It is not me. It is not Kap. People step away from the symbolism
Kap has not lost focus, if the story is true, he kept Nike from being involved in a larger controversy. The way the story reads now, the Arizona Governor looks like the idiot.
I have a different take on many issues involving race. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that. Tomorrow is the 4th. I did my national celebration on Juneteenth. There is nothing wrong with that. I’ll ignore the abomination that Trump concocted. There is nothing wrong with that. Welcome to the melting pot.
You can pretend that appropriation doesn’t matter. Others, as I noted above, disagree.
by rmrd0000 on Wed, 07/03/2019 - 12:46pm
Others can fuck off - think I made that clear. Kap plays into the panic that makes blacks' situation tougher - another data point where white culture is all bad, needs to be erased, shamed - that just plays into Trump's hands, don't it. Plays into whites' bereavement that they can't express themselves, are a minority in the country they largely (toss in your caveats here) built. These Pepe Le Frog assholes couldn't be more overjoyed - they won, free publicity, more recruits.
by PeraclesPlease on Wed, 07/03/2019 - 1:00pm
well said.
by artappraiser on Wed, 07/03/2019 - 1:02pm
P.S. Who appointed Kaepernick the rocket scientist of social engineering? I actually feel sorry for the guy that his every move now means something, must suck. Would love to see it if some day if we could move on to discuss why the fuck sports heeroes are role models for the world. We don't elect them. And they don't get their jobs for their brain power. There's an awful lot of deadly violence that comes out of soccer team partisanship and professional sports team "patriotism" worldwide. At the risk of sounding like a writer from Counterpunch, I'd just like to say: people, you do realize this is all about big corporations and wealthy investors making more money?
by artappraiser on Wed, 07/03/2019 - 1:11pm
Sports stars have been burdened with being "role models" as part of job description since when, 70's? 80's?
by PeraclesPlease on Wed, 07/03/2019 - 1:52pm
I see Google's home page did a baseball theme today with "Happy Fourth of July". Red, white and blue, popcorn and peanut cracker jack, hot dogs and corn dog images included. As American as apple pie. Except there was no baseball July 4, 1776. I don't know if there was even apple pie. Popcorn from the natives maybe? Okay, I looked at the whole linked game now. I don't get the "Slugging Sirloin" part....
by artappraiser on Wed, 07/03/2019 - 3:00pm
For me it's less about who or why someone becomes a "hero" but why does anyone care what they say outside their area of expertise. We all select heroes, mine are usually different than the popular culture choices. It's easier for me to talk about this with musical heroes. So many/most love Beyonce, Kanye, Taylor Swift and care and react to what they think and say about cultural, religious, and political issues. They aren't my heroes. I think about who I would select as a living musical hero, John McLaughlin or Chick Corea. While I think McLaughlin is the greatest living guitarist and most innovative jazz composer I couldn't care less that he joined some eastern religion and added Mahavishnu to his name. I don't give a fuck what Chick Corea thinks about Citizen's United or the voting rights act. All I care about is his music and what he thinks about music. I get that if someone gets famous enough they get a platform to spout about any subject. What I don't get is why anyone gives a shit what some guy who is good at throwing a football or good at singing songs thinks about racial injustice or politics
by ocean-kat on Wed, 07/03/2019 - 2:23pm
Harry Belafonte helped support Martin Luther King’s family and the Civil Rights movement. Belafonte marched with King.
Their are entertainers and sports stars supporting movements currently.
Just because you are in the public eye does not mean that you have no voice as a citizen.
Citizens are free to comment on issues outside of their areas of expertise.
by rmrd0000 on Wed, 07/03/2019 - 3:32pm
Another stupid straw man comment from you. I certainly didn't deny that entertainers and sports stars engage in political activity, that people are influenced by them, nor did I suggest they shouldn't be free to do so. You have your agenda to push and pay no attention to the actual substance of the comment you tag that agenda to.
by ocean-kat on Wed, 07/03/2019 - 3:40pm
Your comment was why I mentioned Belafonte
by rmrd0000 on Wed, 07/03/2019 - 3:48pm
One reason our national problems are never resolved is too many very highly reimbursed people's jobs depend on never solving them, just stoking controversy and keeping them going.
It's not just the Republican Party, but the punditry, David Brooks, Hugh Hewitt, Joey Joe Joe jr. Scarborough, Andrew Sullivan (the only Catholic gay Canadian right 'conservative' pundit) and every millionaire "news person" on corporate TeeVee. Kaepernick has now got a multimillion niche for himself as racism expert, but why not? In a nation which worships Kardashians and until recently, everything Trump?
by NCD on Wed, 07/03/2019 - 3:00pm
Kaepernick grew up as a black man in the United States. He took a knee to protest police brutality. He lost his job. If this were only about money, he should have kept his mouth shut and kept his lucrative job as an NFL QB.
Kaepernick expressed concern about the shoes. Nike had no obligation to consider his concerns. If Kaepernick remained silent and the company attempted to sell the shoes in multiple locations, the backlash could have been worse. As it stands now the town in Arizona still wants Nike to bring jobs.
by rmrd0000 on Wed, 07/03/2019 - 4:00pm
grew up as a black man
um, actually, my understanding from sports fans is that it is a point of contention exactly when he decided that he was a black man Not that there's anything wrong with people chosing their own identity, far from it.
one thing we know for sure: he was a Nike fan early on:
All I can say is I've been to Fond du Lac, Wisconsin, and it's not exactly the hood.
by artappraiser on Wed, 07/03/2019 - 4:28pm
Rumor has it that the dog, like many dogs, identified as human. Many humans identify their dogs as humans also. Tribal as well as species identities are tricky and often shifting.
by ocean-kat on Wed, 07/03/2019 - 4:56pm
excellent points! don't get me started!
by artappraiser on Wed, 07/03/2019 - 6:00pm
In your bubble, you cannot conceive that Kap was, at some point hassled by police. It is hard to take your arguments seriously.
by rmrd0000 on Thu, 07/04/2019 - 12:41pm
by artappraiser on Wed, 07/03/2019 - 4:31pm
I support Kaepernick, Nike is smart to have him on contract.
It would be nice if he would encourage people to vote and not promote the "both sides are the same/or to blame" bs .... the "high and holy words" of DC beltway media empires.
by NCD on Wed, 07/03/2019 - 4:49pm
I think: great guy had excellent intentions, coming from a bi-racial background and being a football star, he empathized with BLM and thought he could easily throw some support their way, without too much flap from aging and dying racist football fan demographic, by using a quiet gesture. But nooooo, the Trump demagogue saw a useful diversion for MAGA land and quiet decent Colin becomes a lightning rod. Yeah, chosing him as a rep is smart marketing precisely because he didn't really intend to be "in yo face" divisive. This flag thing is unfortunate, though, it's rattling old stupid shit most people got over long ago. Just more diversionary fodder for Fox/Trump still banging on long gone old timey patriotism.
by artappraiser on Wed, 07/03/2019 - 6:14pm
If people are over this, why the debate? We are not over the influence of slavery or Jim Crow. Trump was elected because people are not over it. We tolerate concentration camps because people are not over it.
by rmrd0000 on Thu, 07/04/2019 - 12:44pm
According to the articles, Kap made a suggestion, Nike made a decision
You suggest that a corporation with clean hands like Nike wants to make a profit? How dare you.
by rmrd0000 on Wed, 07/03/2019 - 3:26pm
Frederick Douglass celebrated July 4, 1852.
More to gain from saying he was part of the system and the system acknowledged him,
even if imperfectly and belatedly - still his birthright, and yours, was noted in the Declaration of Independence by those wise men. Without that, Lincoln would have had much less to go on - there would have been no "Four Score and Seven Years Ago" - only the observance of a self-serving holiday writ by one public servant's executive order in the face of a general mutiny - hardly in the same class as "All Men Are Created Equal", shored up by Douglass'
And rather than create a Juneteenth and Cinco de Mayo and Chinese Lunar New Years and Russian Orthodox calendar celebration or a Pride Day or Women's Day, we have one date that celebrates and includes all in Independence and Equality, whether we come to grips with it now or painfully and embarrassingly later.
https://www.thenation.com/article/what-slave-fourth-july-frederick-dougl...
by PeraclesPlease on Thu, 07/04/2019 - 11:59am
You have a different interpretation of the speech
by rmrd0000 on Thu, 07/04/2019 - 12:33pm
No, I don't have a different interpretation. Douglass was speaking in 1852. The abomination of slavery was largely ended in 1865, 13 years later. So of course he wouldn't speak of the 4th of July without pointing out the irony that the Declaration of Independence already condemned the practice of slavery 76 years before.
by PeraclesPlease on Thu, 07/04/2019 - 1:06pm
Here is the beginning of the speech
by rmrd0000 on Thu, 07/04/2019 - 12:53pm
Umm, okay - I read that, quoted the part I wanted. Again, is there a point, or was this me too i-know-my-Frederick one-upmanship?
by PeraclesPlease on Thu, 07/04/2019 - 12:56pm
Today is National Barbeque Day. I’m getting ready to celebrate, I celebrated the national holiday on Juneteenth.
You are not an ally. You are simply a dismissive asshole. Enjoy your BBQ
by rmrd0000 on Thu, 07/04/2019 - 1:12pm
Enjoy your ribs, I suppose. Sorry I don't do much Barbecue. Being an "asshole" I go in for less spicy and deboned food - you can call it "the sphincter approach", I recktum - garbage in, garbage out as they say.
by PeraclesPlease on Thu, 07/04/2019 - 1:31pm
ROTFLMAO. Still going strong I see.
by kgb999 again (not verified) on Fri, 07/05/2019 - 3:22am
It's all good fun til you get the squirts. Caveat rector.
by PeraclesPlease on Fri, 07/05/2019 - 4:47am
I did some reading on Betsy and the myth. Turns out the real Betsy was an interesting lady, raised Quaker, who had a real bitch of a life, certainly had reason to hate the Brit overlords (they were always killing her husbands and she would have to run the upholstery business herself-which in wartime included making shit for the troops-until she found another.) As to the myth,I found it interesting that racist Woodrow Wilson didn't buy in.
I'm so old that I remember when right-wingers bitterly protested when any U.S. flag was defaced and disrespected by putting it on clothing.
by artappraiser on Wed, 07/03/2019 - 11:06am
That last part about the Republican gov trying to nuke a bunch of new jobs seems like kind of a political blessing ... especially coming into an election year where Democrats have started making inroads in AZ.
If Democrats can't turn:
into a brutal campaign ad ... every Democrat in the state needs to quit politics.
by kgb999 again (not verified) on Fri, 07/05/2019 - 3:57am
Where are my Nike shoes with a North Korean flag on the heel, and soon to be Noble prize winners Trump and Kim embracing in profile on that beautiful beautiful flag?
NOT FOR SALE due to libs and political correctness!!! Bahhh wahhh wahhh not fair!
by NCD on Wed, 07/03/2019 - 9:14am
Hey, What's great about this country is that you can wear what you want and Nike gets to decide what is mass produced. They even get to decide what to produce in limited edition so that sneaker collectors go wack and pay a fortune to look different.
by artappraiser on Wed, 07/03/2019 - 10:52am
Since you brought it up, NCD, a slight hijacking. This iconography is an interest of mine I shared with a member on another forum in the Bush years (he was a French Canadian physicist fascinated by NK propaganda)
Times change, though, here is the kind of thing a former North Korean propaganda artist is doing these days:
by artappraiser on Wed, 07/03/2019 - 11:22am
Does the White House sell these with Trump autograhs? Ebay?
by NCD on Wed, 07/03/2019 - 2:45pm
How a sensible right winger vet sees it:
by artappraiser on Wed, 07/03/2019 - 6:16pm
Typical self righteous intolerance. They always have very strict requirements, ideas and remedies for how you should behave, feel, speak or act.
While repudiating any suggestion they should be subject to any comparable limits or standards.
by NCD on Wed, 07/03/2019 - 7:13pm
Wingnuts forget that the United States is strong enough to survive crisis. Because they are autocrats who only see their point of view, any objections are viewed as a threat. Dan Crenshaw does not hold a sensible position. He is as rigid as you on this issue.
by rmrd0000 on Thu, 07/04/2019 - 11:59am
That's pretty much how a right-winger sees everything though : "if you are offended by [this thing that doesn't offend me], than it's a pretty good indication you should just get the hell out of America."
How is that sensible, exactly ... or was this sarcasm?
by kgb999 again (not verified) on Fri, 07/05/2019 - 3:35am
hey kgb, good to see you stop by.
Not sarcasm. Not buying a product because you find it offensive is one thing. Having protests, outrage and threats to force producer not to produce it is: a planned economy. First they came for the Betsy Ross shoes, and you said nothing, next they'll be coming for your sex toys and violent video games. What happened to one of my favorite libertarians, kgb?
by artappraiser on Fri, 07/05/2019 - 2:06pm
[Pssst - ask him about his knitted dolly doilies and puppy bondage accessories - that'll hit him where it hurts]
by PeraclesPlease on Fri, 07/05/2019 - 2:13pm
also too: everybody's got their own interpretation of iconography. The thirteen-star flag is an iconograph, the meaning in the eye of the beholder. Some may see the hegemon slave-owning U.S. in those shoes and that flag but I think that would be pretty uncommon.
What I think when I see that flag is not any southern states at all, but New Angland, goofy Betsy Ross stories and fife and drum bands dressed in Minuteman outfits in parades; signs on the shore in Maine that say SUMMA'S HEERA, IT'S LOBSTA TIME; the Kennedy's on their sailboat at the compound....
What that Nike shoe design with the Betsy Ross flag actually is: pure appropriation of Ralph Lauren preppy style (it's Ralph who should been outraged and screaming for a licensing fee.) Anybody who found their design offensive should also find Ralph Lauren designs offensive.
Notice in the last decade lots of hip black kids in NYC like the preppy all-American style thing, wear shit with flags on it all the time. Is that done with some irony about appropriation of white privilege? In many cases, I think so. But they also like mixing the "clean cut all American" look with like, long dreads. LLBean & dreads. I think that is probably what NIKE was trying for here. They are not stupid about trends, far from it.
by artappraiser on Fri, 07/05/2019 - 6:58pm
I'm torn. On the one hand, you are obviously right ... the entire premise for nixing the shoes is kind of absurd. On the other, how can a decision that makes this many horrid people so delightfully upset be the wrong thing to do?
It's just flipping shoes. I wouldn't have bought 'em anyhow ... and it's a great troll. I feel you aren't taking into account the upside.
by kgb999 again (not verified) on Fri, 07/05/2019 - 3:29am
It's not just shoes - Betsy Ross is now suspect, shitcanned from mention in polite societ, a fellow traveller of racism. I don't give a fuck about Nike shoes. I also didn't think about Betsy Ross too much nor flags nor whatnot, but don't like seeing her character shit on - esp. since she was the only prominent female figure of the time known for being something ither than the wife of a more famous figure.
As important, this move will get these "horrid people" riled up to vote and otherwise encourage assholes. So a lose-lose. But as consolation, we get to feel clever, smug and better than them again. Who cares about winning state legislatures - we have cultural superiority to manage. Oh, and it gave alt-right a victory - they now own the Betsy Ross flag.
by PeraclesPlease on Fri, 07/05/2019 - 4:40am