MURDER, POLITICS, AND THE END OF THE JAZZ AGE
by Michael Wolraich
Order today at Barnes & Noble / Amazon / Books-A-Million / Bookshop
MURDER, POLITICS, AND THE END OF THE JAZZ AGE by Michael Wolraich Order today at Barnes & Noble / Amazon / Books-A-Million / Bookshop |
When 12 people die violently and needlessly and a newspaper essayist doesn't have a lot of time to process events, things get said. In The Financial Times, Tony Barber gave us this:
This is not in the slightest to condone the murderers, who must be caught and punished, or to suggest that freedom of expression should not extend to satirical portrayals of religion. It is merely to say that some common sense would be useful at publications such as Charlie Hebdo, and Denmark’s Jyllands-Posten, which purport to strike a blow for freedom when they provoke Muslims.
The sentiment here is well-meaning. The offending paragraph shows up late in the article after the author takes several attempts to explain that he will not be defending the Charlie Hebdo murderers and Barber goes back to that line in his concluding paragraphs. Barber also has a lot to say about the role of Frances 5 million Muslims in post-Colonial French society. He also warns, smartly, that we don't yet know who the attackers were.
Still, this call for "common sense" of satirical restraint would surely give Thomas Paine an instant migraine. Or, to call on a contemporary, what must BIll Maher think of this? He was widely criticized for singling out Muslims for reacting to criticism and taunts with violence. The typical response to Maher from the left was #notallmuslims and, hey, that's true. Not all by a long shot. But if the Charlie Hebdo murders were another example of Muslim terrorism and an extension of the Danish cartoon flap of 2011 and the response from otherwise well-meaning thinkers is, "maybe satirists shouldn't provoke certain people," then we've tumbled into the realm of the totally absurd.
Not to mention the contradiction here. If the Western Liberal view is that Islam is a peaceful religion then what are we worried about provoking? If the reality is that part of it are so sick and deranged that provoking them with drawings results in 12 deaths, then the religion is due every criticism it has coming to it and more.
Some Muslims have made the ridiculous demand that non-believers adhere to their rules about what constitutes blasphemy. No common sense approach to the problem on the part of non-believers would result in their actually acquiescing to such a request. But that is exactly where Barber's common sense would lead us.
Comments
I think it is a mistake to try to make this attack appear to be only about cartoons, I think it was a reprisal for French bombing Muslims in the ME and the target was one of convenience.
These cartoons seem to be designed for local consumption to drive xenophobic and Islamophobic reactions and gain support for intervention.
by Peter (not verified) on Wed, 01/07/2015 - 2:53pm
That's not how The New Yorker is describing the content (or even the discontent).
by Michael Maiello on Wed, 01/07/2015 - 3:15pm
The attacks will drive much more intervention than the cartoons could ever have achieved. And the attackers know that.
by Oxy Mora on Wed, 01/07/2015 - 6:41pm
Mocking those people is right and just. Indeed, it is morally necessary.
the hateful and violent fear being mocked, and that is exactly why they should be.
in related news, Kim Song-Un is a stunted little sex gerbil of a man.
by Logged out Dr. ... (not verified) on Wed, 01/07/2015 - 4:47pm
That's so unfair and simply not true. Kim Jong-Un is the sexiest man alive.
by ocean-kat on Wed, 01/07/2015 - 5:23pm
And it starts:
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2015/01/catholic-league-chief-charlie-hebdo-editor-got-himself-murdered-by-being-a-narcissist/
by Ramona on Wed, 01/07/2015 - 8:00pm
Of course... Another "I don't condone this but he had it coming..." That is condoning.
by Michael Maiello on Wed, 01/07/2015 - 9:03pm
The cartoons published by the French magazine will now go viral and more outlets will begin publishing cartoons and articles satirizing Muhammad.
by rmrd0000 on Wed, 01/07/2015 - 10:10pm
Well said, Mike. What you've said here really is the inescapable conclusion that must be reached if we accept our own principles.
by Will (not verified) on Wed, 01/07/2015 - 11:59pm
La seule chose qui doit etre dit
:nous sommes tous charlie
by artappraiser on Thu, 01/08/2015 - 8:26am
Drawing the News: Wo Shi Chali (Je Suis Charlie)-China Digital Times
Je Suis Charlie': Huge crowds gather across Europe after Paris attack
'Je Suis Charlie' In Tehran
We stand with Je Suis Charlie-Bangkok Post
12 Powerful Photos From Last Night’s “Je Suis Charlie” Rally In Downtown Montreal
World’s cartoonists respond to the attack on ‘Charlie Hebdo’'
Nicolas Batum wears 'Je Suis Charlie' warmup shirt before Blazers-Heat
Je Suis Charlie': US journalism organizations join Charlie Hebdo in solidarity
Thousands chant 'je suis Charlie' at Fed Square, Melbourne
Apple joins 'Je Suis Charlie' solidarity movement
Charlie Hebdo attack victims mourned in Sydney's Martin Place Paris terror attack
Je Suis Charlie: Crowds in London Stand With Charlie Hebdo
Jon Stewart pays tribute to Charlie Hebdo victims
Charlie Hebdo demonstrations in France and around the world (photos)
by artappraiser on Fri, 01/09/2015 - 3:44am
by artappraiser on Thu, 01/08/2015 - 9:02am
The French are now shooting up mosques and burning down kabob shops to prove to the world that they are an advanced and civilized race. This terrorist attack will not deter them from bombing women and children in their crusade to civilize the heathens of the ME. If these heathen Muslims would only submit and defer to the Crusader there would be peace on earth and prosperity for all. Resistance is futile as the last 100 years has shown so accept your low position Muslims or suffer the consequences.
by Peter (not verified) on Thu, 01/08/2015 - 11:50am
Pierre: Je ne suis pas Charlie!
by NCD on Thu, 01/08/2015 - 12:16pm
Submit and defer to the crusader? You are joking, right? At least Michel Houellebecq knows who is asking submission from who.
by Michael Maiello on Thu, 01/08/2015 - 2:16pm
Who is responsible for the rise in Islamophobia? by Murat Askoy for Today's Zaman
His summary
...The only way to really overcome all of this is to avoid turning a religion, such as Islam, into material for politics. Likewise, legitimacy for political practices needs to be rooted not in religion but in mandates from social pluralism. Religion must be left in the civilian arena and not taken up by the state. It is ultimately the respect for people who are different from you that will allow a country to transcend Islamophobia. In other words, the key to this all lies in having a secular state, one in which the state is equally objective with all believers and non-believers.
If you wish to avoid wars of civliizations, Peter, you're definitely on the wrong team with your support of ISIS. They seek to ramp it up, just like Islamaphobes do.
by artappraiser on Thu, 01/08/2015 - 2:17pm
BTW, do you have a source for these French counter attacks? I don't see them being reported on anywhere...
by Michael Maiello on Thu, 01/08/2015 - 3:28pm
there's just been some coming out now
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/11332467/Paris-s...
but I think he was referring to anti-Muslim violence in recent weeks if I recall correctly. Thing is, I also read about a lot of support demonstrations by non-Muslim French afterwards. And there's this: anti-Jewish activity in France has ramped up a lot. It's a tinderbox of religious based animosity.
I put a lot of blame on their speech laws! They talk free speech but they have a lot of hate speech laws.I think hate speech lets off steam. Our founders understood this because they were damn angry.
Blasphemy should not mean death. That makes people quietly hate Muslims (or whoever else might enforce such a law) and stew and stew about it. It's a vicious circle problem. You let the steam off and you know who the haters are, you can watch them. You don't let them steam, they go underground, you don't know what they are thinking. End of story.
by artappraiser on Thu, 01/08/2015 - 3:45pm
oops, I think now it was Sweden I was thinking about
In Sweden, the Land of the Open Door, Anti-Muslim Sentiment Finds a Foothold, NYT,Jan.2
Swedes, French, all the same thing!
by artappraiser on Thu, 01/08/2015 - 3:51pm
The point about all the hate speech laws in Europe definitely stands, though. That Houllebecq actually had to stand trial is ridiculous, even though he won and even though such events are incredibly effective for marketing literature.
by Michael Maiello on Thu, 01/08/2015 - 3:54pm
More on French culture vs.Muslims, and Houllebecque's new novel about a Muslim becoming president, which was satirized on the cover of this week's Charlie Hebdo
by artappraiser on Fri, 01/09/2015 - 4:02am
Time, CBS, Daily Mail, the Telegraph and other news media are reporting on these incidents.
by Peter (not verified) on Fri, 01/09/2015 - 12:14pm
The head of Hezbollah in Lebanon notes that those who perform beheadings and commit mass murder do more harm to Islan than any cartoon.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/01/09/nasrallah-cartoons_n_6443530.html
Edit to add:
When the Nazis occupied Paris and hunted Jews, the Grand Mosque of Paris provided sanctuary.
http://www.amazon.com/The-Grand-Mosque-Paris-Holocaust/dp/0823423042
by rmrd0000 on Fri, 01/09/2015 - 12:28pm
rmrd0000:
Jonathan Chait here is making an argument that might interest you; the excerpt:that caught my eye:
by artappraiser on Sat, 01/10/2015 - 4:50am
Thanks for the link. The murdering brothers killed a a Muslim police officer, Jewish people, and a policewoman from the Carribbean. Apparently both Al-Queda and ISIS want credit for the murders unaware that the murderers have brought people together in their hatred of the acts performed in the name of Islam.
Apparently Muhammad was ridiculed by opponents during his lifetime. He never sanctioned murder because he felt his view of religion would be vindicated in the end.
http://reason.com/blog/2015/01/08/does-islam-prohibit-images-of-mohammed-n
by rmrd0000 on Sat, 01/10/2015 - 9:51am
I saw a Muslim guy on CNN yesterday who said that Islam is no more conducive to terror than other religions. While he made some valid points, he also made some strained analogies.
He cited the Crusades and the Thirty Years War as examples of Christian-inspired bloodlust. If you have to go back centuries to find a Christian parallel to what Muslims are doing today, you aren't making much of a case.
He noted that the mass murderer in Norway also said he was doing it for God. But the Norwegian psycho wasn't part of a movement, and there aren't millions of Christians who applaud what he did. There are millions of Arabs/Muslims who support terrorism.
The guy also said that the "vast majority" of Muslims oppose terrorism. This survey--which may now be outdated--supports this view, although I wonder what the answers would have been if the pollsters had asked specifically "do you approve or disapprove of attacks on Israeli civilians"?
by Aaron Carine on Thu, 01/08/2015 - 1:36pm
If you have to go back centuries to find a Christian parallel to what Muslims are doing today, you aren't making much of a case.
Thank you!
Similarly, I don't get the rhetorical appeal of bringing up things like "the tragedy of Andalusia" in 1492 for those that have that habit.
by artappraiser on Thu, 01/08/2015 - 2:05pm
"The Tragedy of Andalusia?" Thomas Kyd, right?
by Michael Maiello on Thu, 01/08/2015 - 2:17pm
nah, Jihadi Central. Holy war then, holy war now, holy war fuhever...
by artappraiser on Thu, 01/08/2015 - 2:20pm
since we're basically talking about the strange appeal of a certain strange kind of "P.R".here, this is one of my all time favs:
"I advise you to raise your children in the cult of jihad and martyrdom and to instil in them a love for religion and death," ~ Zawahiri's wife commenting as regards the "Arab spring" in 2008
ah, first thing I think of when I hear the word spring: martyrdom! death brings hope!
by artappraiser on Thu, 01/08/2015 - 3:00pm
Death springs eternal!
by Michael Maiello on Thu, 01/08/2015 - 2:59pm
Yes. While it's true that Islam is no more conductive to terror that any other religion and at one time Christianity was a horror, Christianity though still in many ways regressive, has changed for the better and Islam has changed for the worse. The influence of many secular and humanist trends have forced Christians to moderate many of their most violent and oppressive views. Islam hasn't gone through this and the secularists in Muslim countries mostly don't have the power to force that change on Islam.
Bill Maher is right when he says we must be honest about this and confront Islamic views. To address the current case discussed here. When majorities of Muslims believe that the death penalty is a proper punishment for blasphemy they give validation and comfort to those who carry out ex judicial killings for blasphemy, even if those same Muslims would not carry out the killings themselves or are horrified when they occur. The most common rebuttal made to Maher is that he's lumping all Muslims into a group, that it is not all Muslims. This rebuttal is nonsense. When Maher cites a survey that states that 70% of Muslims believe the death penalty is the proper punishment for blasphemy he is explicitly saying its not all Muslims. He's explicitly saying that 30% do not believe in the death penalty for blasphemy..
by ocean-kat on Thu, 01/08/2015 - 4:02pm
Oops, I forgot to put up the link. Call me a silly. Here it is: http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/pipa/pdf/feb09/STARTII_Feb09_rpt.pdf
by Aaron Carine on Thu, 01/08/2015 - 6:43pm
You don't have to go back more than a day to see Crusader forces killing Muslims, the bombs are falling as we write our opinions and condemn the Other for resisting. They cannot resist our bombers but they can bring the war back to the Crusader Homeland in a small but frightening way.
The reaction in the West will follow the usual reactionary path with all people loosing rights and increased killing in the ME, this is all we know how to do being violent antidemocratic Imperialists.
I do have sympathy for the moderate {tame} Muslims who are trying to protect the Muslim minorities in Europe from the inevitable xenophobic backlash that is developing.
by Peter (not verified) on Fri, 01/09/2015 - 12:37pm
Can you point to the passages that call for the death penalty for blasphemy? Isn't God strong enough not to be hurt a "jot" by blasphemy?
by rmrd0000 on Fri, 01/09/2015 - 12:55pm
Peter's sympathies don't seem to only be with moderate Moslems; he seems to have an affinity for ISIS. Islamic psychos are always "resisting the imperialists", not "trying to impose their murderous, medieval theocracy on people who don't want it".
I don't think the motivation for the bombing of ISIS is religious, so I doubt "Crusade" is the right word for it.
by Anonymous (not verified) on Fri, 01/09/2015 - 5:31pm
You don't have to go back centuries - you can look at the Brits killing off the Iraqi "wogs" in the 20s for that great oil stash (read Churchill); overthrowing the freely elected Mossadegh to get at that oil stash, and now taking liberties with civilian collateral damage in Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Yemen, Libya & Syria because 19 Saudis provoked us 13 years ago. And then feeding in weapons where we don't want to fight - do those proxy battles. Oh, yeah, our quaint black sites/rendition zones where we can have others torture for us so we can pretend to keep the values we used to have. Yeah, we're doing all this for a movement - the "US exceptionalism" movement - the "they're all violent but we're just trying to maintain the peace" movement. So our generals clutch their crosses "privately", while some jackasses have a religious army while ours is just "personal choice"...
by Anonymous PP (not verified) on Sun, 01/11/2015 - 4:36pm
How about charity?
Sure Charlie Hebdo was within its rights to publish those cartoons . And should have been protected by the Government.And it could also, if they felt like it, have made fun of cripples, or the retarded.
And shouldn't have done it. Not because they were afraid of retribution. But because they were going to make some of their fellow human being unhappy
by Flavius on Thu, 01/08/2015 - 2:43pm
Political cartoonists job is to make their fellow human beings happy..?....or at least not so unhappy that the melancholy massacre a roomful of 'their fellow human beings' with machine guns? Got it.
by NCD on Thu, 01/08/2015 - 2:59pm
If the South Park people thought that way, where would we be now?
There's no such thing as victimless humor.
by Michael Maiello on Thu, 01/08/2015 - 3:01pm
You got me thinking strange myself: the serious downsides of extremely polite societies have made for a lot of great literature. Not that it has anything to do with this thread....
by artappraiser on Thu, 01/08/2015 - 3:04pm
another got me thinking, boy, you are inspiring me, today:
Book of Mormon handled this whole thing so well! right on the edge...
by artappraiser on Thu, 01/08/2015 - 3:11pm
Flavius immediately reminded me of...
by Michael Maiello on Thu, 01/08/2015 - 3:23pm
I. did. laugh. I'm going to hell (once properly instilled, Catholic guilt never leaves one-how bout them apples, Mrs. Zawahiri? Hey, does that mean I get martyr creds for secularism?)
by artappraiser on Thu, 01/08/2015 - 3:33pm
High school humor used to feature a heavy concentration of "amusing" insults of the opposition. Probably still does. Here's a very old Prairie Home Companion example of the genre.
We are sexy and we are rich
you're our best friends
Don't you wish.
We're having a party,
Lot's of fun
There'll be dancing
When we got to be 16 or 17 that kind of thing mostly faded. Fortunately.
But then reappeared with the likes of Charlie Hebdo . With some superb talent focussed on the intention to annoy/infuriate the target audience.
Yes,of course the murders were completely indefensible.
.But, separate question: why run the cartoons in the first place? At best " Funny as a crutch".is the phrase that springs to mind.
At worst ..well we saw the worst.
.
by Flavius on Thu, 01/08/2015 - 11:05pm
I'm in the art world, Flav, I know entities like Charlie are basically "trolls." The art world knows it, too. That's part and parcel of art that's not just for entertainment or aesthetic enjoyment, To be trollish, but more so. Not just trolling, but trying to change people's thinking, rile them, irrirate them....
Craft is polite .Art since at least the early 20th century is more often not polite. It can be real crass, yeah blatantly so.
To see it from a different angle, this event has become a frigging cri de coeur in the art world, They are just mad as hell and not going to take it anymore, not going to be more polite but are steeled for a metaphorical fight, going to ramp it up.
Here's just the most recent article I've read for an example
It really is a situation of "we are all Charlie, and we will not stand for self-censoring or all is lost"
One ironic part of this tragedy is that the one perp at one time was an aspiring rap artist...
by artappraiser on Fri, 01/09/2015 - 12:57am
Are these anguished artists going to airdrop Banksy into Mosul to show these Jihadis that they can't take our Freedoms without a fight. What kind of culture would we have if we didn't' support racist artists who depict Black leaders as monkeys and Arabs as hooked nosed, robed extremists?
No one deserves to die for their art but as I stated earlier this attack was not about offensive degrading attack art it is about a Crusader War and the political position some of these artists proudly displayed..
by Peter (not verified) on Fri, 01/09/2015 - 1:21pm
this attack was not about offensive degrading attack art it is about a Crusader War
Says you only. The attackers don't agree with you. Read the eyewitness reports. They said why they were doing it and who they wanted.to kill. It's clear as a bell.You're falling for your own propaganda and it contradicts the facts and it's just making you look stupid. Not only that, people like them would kill people with your propaganda habits n a hearbeat if they didn't happen to like your propaganda stylings.They were actually going after people just like you.
by artappraiser on Fri, 01/09/2015 - 4:23pm
I think Peter might be the underground Resistance.
by Michael Maiello on Fri, 01/09/2015 - 4:45pm
Myself, I've always suspected Peter is Oleeb gone underground. SAMO agitprop, sometimes a near match. But then, that whole school of agitprop is quite common on the internets, it's almost like they've got one of the language generator thingies like the one for Pomo.
Role play? I dunno. Oleeb certainly was passionate enough not to be doing role play.
by artappraiser on Fri, 01/09/2015 - 7:16pm
Your own quote at 8:26 contradicts this ' Says You Only', Harith al Wadhari states " Stop your aggression against Muslims"
The target of this attack was just a symptom of the violent Crusader mentality not the cause of the War Of Civilizations that is coming.
Your last two sentences seem to be a passive-aggressive attempt to intimidate or just more Islamophobia, "people like them".
by Peter (not verified) on Fri, 01/09/2015 - 11:52pm
P.S.There's a slideshow of some of the stronger "fight back" cartoons on topic at the link. Like this one:
by artappraiser on Fri, 01/09/2015 - 1:02am
Oh, and here's one for people with your opinion, Flav:
by artappraiser on Fri, 01/09/2015 - 1:05am
Fair comment.
by Flavius on Fri, 01/09/2015 - 10:24am
AA your is an abuse of the Light
by Resistance on Fri, 01/09/2015 - 2:35pm
Well, I guess we should tell those radicals at South Park to lay off as well - pushing the envelope...
Hebdo attacked everyone with equal viciousness, but certainly nothing like the extreme obnoxiousness of snuff-rape-war-porn of Larry Flynt, nor the brutality of ISIS gangs that hack people's heads off or abortion protestors that bomb and shoot people, or those American conservatives who regularly preach turning the Middle East into glass and then pump up the campaign contributions to send in bombers to do it.
Hebdo didn't make the French overthrow the Libyan government for their oil payout - Hebdo, you might be surprised to find out, didn't even have their own army or even arms cache, much less full contingent of NATO weaponry.
Hebdo it appears was roughly the equivalent of a Sam Kinison or Andrew Dice Clay standup routine - or maybe not even, Don Rickles and Phyllis Diller. But grandma's got indigestion, so guess the boys should tone it down.
#JeSuisCharlieMansonSoDealWithIt
by Anonymous PP (not verified) on Sun, 01/11/2015 - 5:02pm
Every change that made the world a better place made some people unhappy and satirical cartoons played a part in bringing about those changes. I don't know if Hebdo's cartoons were bitting satire or juvenile shock since I can't read the french captions. But I don't need to know since it's all protected free speech.
The role that trolls of the art world, as AA called him, play is that by pushing the boundaries they create a larger safe space for the more powerful satirists to do their work.
by ocean-kat on Fri, 01/09/2015 - 1:46am
Great comment, ocean-kat. Your response got me thinking about we've already settled it in this country that you don't have to have any art or even significant purpose in the trolling at all. Pushing the boundaries, indeed, that's what Larry Flynt did:
Hustler Magazine v. Falwell
The actual cartoon was really the worst piece of stoopid adolescent garbage...
And the Flynt case brings up that not only do they have hate speech laws in Europe, but they have stricter libel laws in many places too. Not that Allah is going to sue when he's been blasphemed...
by artappraiser on Fri, 01/09/2015 - 2:40am
Credit to U.S. intel where due:
Alleged Charlie Hebdo Shooters Were on US No-Fly List
On the internets we're always bitching how stupid they are, and about the civil liberties abuses, but one has got to admit at the same time that we don't know how many times what they do stops something.You let the haters speak, but part of that deal has got to be that you watch 'em, too.. Same with all the haters, anti-abortion activists, Ku Klux Klan, etc.
by artappraiser on Thu, 01/08/2015 - 5:20pm
One was an Anwar al-Awlaki acolyte:
by artappraiser on Fri, 01/09/2015 - 3:53am
Whatever happened to ol' Anwar al-Awlaki anyway? Oh yeah, someone didn't like what he was saying and so decided to kill him.
by LULU (not verified) on Fri, 01/09/2015 - 4:28am
I saw your "ahem" comment, LULU, get the message and haven't forgotten all the old discussions and issues. Here's a summary of what matters on the topic at hand: You suspect Anwar al-Awkai was executed for speech/propaganda offenses. I don't suspect that at all.
Why don't I suspect it at all? Because there's tons worse guys out there spewing worse stuff and Obama hasn't pulled the drone trigger on them. Supporting evidence for me is the way Awlaki obviously craftily used two disturbed humans as weapons: Farouk Abdulmutallab and Nidal Malik Hasan. I suspect that he was one evil dude plotting war against American civilians and not only that, doing it for power and ego reasons over any genuine concerns.
It's a disturbing thing that American citizens were executed on foreign soil without trial, but who's fault is that? Nobody was forcing him to stay hiding in Yemen, letting his father have to stand in for his rights. It furthermore appears to me that he didn't want those rights, that he would spit on them, that he may have wished our framework of rights destroyed.
Neither of us can know the answer for sure because of the nature of fighting terrorism, the facts can't be laid out. That's just the reality of our times. So it's no use debating it over and over. I just wanted to express why I am not with you on this, I don't think it's the same at all.
by artappraiser on Fri, 01/09/2015 - 6:48pm
You suspect Anwar al-Awkai was executed for speech/propaganda offenses. I don't suspect that at all.
You have correctly identified where our conclusions differ. That said, I of course do not think that the forms of speech and the claimed intent are exactly the same. I was mostly noting the grievous affect of both. By that I am referring to the way that some person, or some group, chose to deal with the problem of the different examples of speech. In each case they chose to kill the speaker[s]. Al Alwakai may have been a major functionary but his function was as a recruiter through his power of speech. He, like most all war mongers, did not pick up a gun himself. His hands weren't clean but neither were they bloody, at least until his end.
The cartoonists were, even if not deliberately, and even if doing so legally, pushing a mind-set already in place among some readers that stoked their anti-Muslim feelings. The cartoons insulted Muslims, some of whom were radical in their beliefs and in their response. The cartoons made them feel justified or even obligated to respond.
[I hate feeling it to be necessary to put in any disclaimer of, in any way, respecting or apologizing for the deadly way they responded, but there it is]
The cleric al Alwakai on the other hand was overtly calling for overt actions against his overtly identified enemy. Al alwakai might have said, " Hey kid, you should join our jihad and fight for the Profit, for your country, and for fig pie and the Muslim way, you should go kill those who I tell you are our enemies and here is how you should do it". In that way his speech was different but the resulting affect and then the resulting response to the speech was the same. Someone was offended or felt threatened and so decided that the affect or the intent of the speech was worth killing over with little regard for any innocents which may have surrounded him. And so the deed was done, he was assassinated.
Al Alwakai was definitely involved in the conflict but his involvement used the very same weapon as did the cartoonists and that weapon was his speech. Whether or not he acted out of motives for power and ego reasons over any genuine concerns I cannot know. I certainly believe such venal motives exist among some of our own "leaders" and among some/most other leaders everywhere but I also believe that there are true believers of every possible stripe.
Whether or not al Alwakai [or the cartoonists] crossed a moral or ethical line with the particulars of their speech depends on subjective cultural values. I have mine and they certainly aren't al Alwakai's. An example is that I think that calling for deadly responses is almost always wrong, but in that I am obviously at odds with much of my own culture. Apparently some interpretations of the Koran believe such a response is called for in cases of religious insult. And Samurais, for another different example of different values held in high esteem by some, whether acting as hired guns as they sometimes did, or as devoted loyal followers as they sometimes were, believe that a sneak attack and a stab in the back is completely fair. At least I have been told that. People are fucked up in all kinds of ways.
Whether or not al Awakai crossed a legal line that justified assassinating him is determined by arbitrary laws [all human enacted laws are arbitrary] which in his case and some other cases in the U.S. War on Terror, were sometimes deemed legal, and sometimes by ex post facto laws or after the fact legal justifications which went against previous custom, tradition, and legal interpretations. There was a blatant attempt to justify the assassination. Yes, I realize that is a big part of the debate which you do not wish to rehash and I also realize that there is little chance of changing your view if we were to do so.
The more I write the more I feel I have left out and am probably confusing my issue. The better alternative of stopping after my first paragraph would probably have been better.
by A Guy Called LULU on Sat, 01/10/2015 - 3:12pm
Eric McDavid was just released from jail after 9 years served for "eco-terrorism" when it was finally much belatedly revealed that the FBI had a 17-year-old embedded with his group egging them on to things they would never do on their own, and then covering up her role. [they hid 2500 pages of exculpating information - so much for FOIA & defense discovery]. The amount of bullshit the FBI and CIA have made up over the last 15 years is simply criminal, and yeah, somehow they're possibly protecting our freedoms in a way just like that cop choking the black victim to death somehow may have made the streets safer or made them much less safe, and it rather depends on a lot of finely parsed lines.
But overall, I don't think an extra-judicial killing of Awlaki & his kid helped our democracy or war-on-terror much, whether the current anti-Hebdo asshole once touched Awlaki's frock or whatever his Vulcan mind control over his legion of followers is supposed to be. Because obviously the head of Iran said as bad of things about the US as Awlaki ever did, and he died peacefully in his bed, but that was at a time when we didn't have to chase every anti-American Muslim into a corner (while giving every anti-Muslim nutcake his/her own spot on Fox TV). As for no-flight lists, I'm sure if we put 10,000 people on them with no review, 1 or 2 of those people will be bad people - not exactly the most efficient, humanitarian approach, but I guess if that's the mess we want to make of our "democracy", I'll have to live with the broken eggs.
by AnonymousPP (not verified) on Sun, 01/11/2015 - 5:21pm
You suspect Anwar al-Awkai was executed for speech/propaganda offenses. I don't suspect that at all.
Today "Democracy Now" with Amy Goodwin interviews Jerremy Scahill and they talk, amomg other things, about Anwar al-Awlaki. The show can be watched and listened to here. For more efficient use of bandwidth it can be listened to without video.
http://www.democracynow.org/2015/1/12/jeremy_scahill_on_paris_attacks_the
Also, there is a complete transcript available, just scroll down. I include a few excerpts below. I do not expect anybody to accept any journalists story uncritically any more than I would advise accepting politicians words uncritically but Scahill has a pretty good reputation for good reporting, I believe.
Awlaki was clearly angered by the U.S. invasion of Iraq. He defended the right of the United States to go into Afghanistan to destroy al-Qaeda and denounced al-Qaeda as fake Muslims. This was all in the aftermath of 9/11. He was on NPR. He was profiled in The Washington Post. He was considered a legitimate part of the commentariat in the United States post-9/11, as a person who was brought on TV shows to make sense of the position of Muslims in the world post-9/11. And part of the reason he was invited on these media outlets is because he was condemning al-Qaeda. He was condemning the invasion of—or, excuse me, he was condemning the use of Afghanistan as a base to plot the 9/11 attacks.
Then Iraq gets invaded. Then Abu Ghraib happens. Then we start to learn about CIA torture sites around the world. We start to see Muslim prisoners in orange jumpsuits with hoods being brought. Then there’s desecration of the Qur’an that happens. And you could see Awlaki becoming radicalized by these policies. And he goes back to Yemen, and basically didn’t know what he was doing with his life. He got involved with some real estate and other things. Then he starts—he basically starts using YouTube and the Internet as his online mosque. He already was known around the world for sermons he had recorded on CDs.
And, you know, I listened to many, many, many, many days’ worth of Anwar al-Awlaki’s preaching. And up until the invasion of Iraq, there was very little that you could look at and say, "Oh, here’s a guy who is going to be very anti-American." In fact, Awlaki supported the war in Yugoslavia. He was on the same side as the United States in Bosnia. And, in fact, you know, Awlaki was calling for Muslims in the United States to fight the jihad against the Catholic forces of Croatia and the Orthodox Christian forces of Serbia, and he was on the same side as the United States.
The U.S. then has Awlaki put in prison inside of Yemen for 18 months, where he was held in solitary confinement for 17 of those months. He was interrogated by the FBI while in that prison. And then, when he was released, he was a totally changed man.
He was held in a political prison inside of Yemen, in Sana’a, Yemen. And, in fact, I reported in my book that when the Yemeni government wanted to release Awlaki, that John Negroponte, who at the time was a senior counterterrorism official under the Bush administration—and, of course, one of the butchers of Central America during the 1980s—John Negroponte had a secret meeting with Bandar Bush, the Saudi diplomat very close to the Bush family, where he—and the Yemeni ambassador, where John Negroponte said, "Our position is that we want Awlaki kept in prison until all of these young Western Muslims forget about him." This is a U.S. citizen who was being held in a prison in a human rights-violating country on very flimsy charges that he had intervened in a tribal dispute, and a senior official intervenes to say, "We want our citizen kept in your prison without any trial for five years, until people forget about him."
When Awlaki eventually was released, he was a totally changed man and began increasingly to cross the line from praising people fighting against the United States, in Afghanistan, Iraq and elsewhere, to actively calling on people to come and, as he put it, fight on the fronts of jihad in Yemen or elsewhere or in your own country. And this is where he really became considered to be a significant threat by the United States, that his words—not his actions, but his words—were going to inspire lone-wolf acts of terrorism inside of the United States. [My emphasis]
And, you know, I listened to many, many, many, many days’ worth of Anwar al-Awlaki’s preaching. And up until the invasion of Iraq, there was very little that you could look at and say, "Oh, here’s a guy who is going to be very anti-American." In fact, Awlaki supported the war in Yugoslavia. He was on the same side as the United States in Bosnia. And, in fact, you know, Awlaki was calling for Muslims in the United States to fight the jihad against the Catholic forces of Croatia and the Orthodox Christian forces of Serbia, and he was on the same side as the United States. The U.S. was raising funds to arm Bosnian Muslims to fight in that war. They were on the—the U.S. was on the same side as Anwar al-Awlaki and Osama bin Laden in the war in Yugoslavia in terms of the position that they staked out on Bosnia.
If all of this evidence that The New York Times and The Washington Post and CNN now today claim that the U.S. has had for a long time, why was there never an indictment on Anwar al-Awlaki? What did the president of the United States serve as judge, jury and executioner of an American citizen? Why did the United States advocate for a human rights-abusing government to have one of their citizens placed in prison for indefinite detention, when he hadn’t yet been charged with a crime by the United States?
AMY GOODMAN: Well, what’s the answer?
JEREMY SCAHILL: Well, I think that the U.S., on the one hand, was afraid of Awlaki’s words. They didn’t want to give him a platform in a trial.
Scahill also addresses the issue of whether or not el Alwaki was involved operationally. He doesn't believe that he was.
by A Guy Called LULU on Mon, 01/12/2015 - 7:45pm
Very well written. I think the brutal nature of the crime has left an obvious, but very missed message: if a satirist, journalist or entertainer has made the choice to stand on principle and create the type of art that some may find offensive they had better be sure all of those around them feel the same way. The risks I might take doesn't necessarily represent the risks I would be comfortable making for those closest to me.
by Danny Cardwell on Thu, 01/08/2015 - 8:22pm
by artappraiser on Fri, 01/09/2015 - 3:16am
Michael, I thought you or Doc might be commenting on Brooks latest column on the subject. I don't know enough about the University actions to supposedly "enforce speech codes" he references to dissect what he is saying. And Ann Coulter as "satirist"?
by Oxy Mora on Fri, 01/09/2015 - 10:59am
I'd missed it. Ann Coulter is a "satirist" when it suits her. Or, when she gets into trouble she hides behind the shield of "I was kidding, get a grip." But she ultimately means what she says. She is no satirist.
I think it is true that Charlie Hebdo would not survive on a liberal college campus in the U.S. In his totally awesome New York interview, Chris Rock says that he doesn't play college campuses anymore for that very reason -- they are "too conservative," he says, in what material they will tolerate.
Of course, I'm annoyed that Brooks considers himself to be seated at the "adult table," as he calls it. But I realize I am ultimately not going to like the food anywhere he is eating.
by Michael Maiello on Fri, 01/09/2015 - 11:22am
Thanks. I see now that Brooks article was a setup piece in support of Alyaan Hirsi Ali, who seems to be a poster girl of Conservatives' rant machine on the "clash of civilizations" and that she is heartily promoted and defended by the Wall St. Journal, American Enterprise Institute, etc.
by Oxy Mora on Fri, 01/09/2015 - 2:02pm
The subtlety of your take on Brooks piece here impresses me, Michael. And the ease at which you peg.it. That he's got an different agenda for his point which makes him build his argument a certain way should not distract from the legitimacy of his main point
I hope one good that comes out of the continual buildup of terror attacks on "blasphemers" is that more college kids realize what they are doing when they protest against a speaker being heard rather than against what the speaker says..
I will look upon your next satire on Brooks with a keener eye.
by artappraiser on Fri, 01/09/2015 - 4:10pm
Artsy, I was trying to be brief in my response to Michael because I wasn't familiar with the Brandeis incident and thought maybe you all had discussed it at length. I too recognize Michael's subtleties.
In the event you guys didn't kick it to death already, and I am by no means an expert on University administration and culture, the Brandeis decision seems to be in a different category than college kids' protests in that they were going to give her an honorary degree.
So one of the issues is whether giving this author (Scholar?) a degree isn't an absolute insult to an institution with serious scholarship on comparative religions---comparatively.
One of my great dislikes is outside influences, like the Kochs, on academic institutions and when I reread the Brooks thing it seemed more in the spirit of that kind of meddling than a serious take on free speech on campuses.
It will really anger me if this tragedy accrues to the sensationalist and militarists in the U.S.
edit to add: I see that Brooks didn't actually mention Brandeis.
by Oxy Mora on Fri, 01/09/2015 - 9:19pm
I was being "brief" too in my own way. I wasn't thinking of any college incident in particular, there's been so many over a decade or so. They are often about I-P, but far from exclusively. I was picking up on Michael's Chris Rock citation, not at all thinking about Brandeis. More about the political correctness police on campuses thing than anything in particular. Didn't really matter about what politics are being policed.
I didn't even think of the honorary degree situation, there I would agree it's something that goes beyond free speech issues.
As to funding sources with agendas trying to influence a situation, I just don't see how it applies that much to a college campus situation. The kids and their faculty mentors are going to align with whoever they agree with when they are passionate enough about something to protest about it. Somebody trying to influence them is like water over the damn.
by artappraiser on Fri, 01/09/2015 - 10:19pm
the Rock interview Michael linked to is really worth quoting in the part that's very applicable to the whole thread, especially about self-censorship being an insidious, scary thing and how social media is related:
by artappraiser on Sat, 01/10/2015 - 3:49am
Who should we blame if your neighbor takes a stick and excites a hive of killer bees and the neighbors within a six block area get severely stung?
Should we blame the bees or the stupid one(s) that used a stick to incite the killer bees?
Back off, Charlie Hebdo, - these Islamist extremists kill
by Resistance on Fri, 01/09/2015 - 1:56pm
We need to expect a little more of people than we do bees.
by Michael Maiello on Fri, 01/09/2015 - 2:57pm
Expect to be disappointed.
by Resistance on Fri, 01/09/2015 - 7:09pm
Wait, I know this one! Let me do it for you:
And that's why (ta-dum!) we need the right to bear firearms!
by artappraiser on Fri, 01/09/2015 - 7:18pm
So unlike Clark Kent and Superman, you and Peter can be in the same room at the same time.
by rmrd0000 on Fri, 01/09/2015 - 4:35pm
Here's a toon that's a superb visual for those who think along the lines of Flavius on this:
Even though I don't agree, it really gets one thinking.
I don't know the actual source, I found it here @ grasscity.com, "the biggest counter culture community" (dopers) by googling.images.
by artappraiser on Fri, 01/09/2015 - 6:17pm
by Resistance on Fri, 01/09/2015 - 7:07pm
by artappraiser on Fri, 01/09/2015 - 8:26pm
by artappraiser on Fri, 01/09/2015 - 10:08pm
Anonymous has put up a "countdown to action" website with a star and crescent symbol, it's not just a case of one guy bloviating:
http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/op-charlie-hebdo-anonymous-website-counts-down-possible-retribution-event-1482707
by artappraiser on Fri, 01/09/2015 - 10:35pm
Color me unconvinced that causing pain to the religious leads to all sorts of good things from the advance of science to a chicken in every pot.
For myself , I formally ceased pretending to be religious on my wedding day, because it seemed wrong to contaminate that ceremony with a lie.
But I never switched to believing the various benefits announced above would somehow flow from insulting those who continued to practice the faith I was formally leaving behind. My ship had sailed but I waved a sorrowful goodbye to the good folks left on the dock.
..
by Flavius on Sat, 01/10/2015 - 3:46am
I'm always wary of anything Anonymous does. For me that starts with their Guy Fawkes masks symbol coming from V for Vendetta. People worshipping that movie as having a message for a world view makes me very uneasy..It's very nice that all the citizens in it came together to support blowing up the nasty fascist regime but it's also a martyrdom message and there's a lot of other disturbing things that happen in it that don't deserve romanticization. It's a very adolescent view of anarchism and revolution and that has some similarities to the appeal of jihadism.
And Anonymous themselves, they do sek to "terrorize" in a small way. A majority dislikes most of their targets and the harm of attacks is not physical so no one gets too up in arms. But this always comes to mind for me: First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—Because I was not a Socialist.Then they came for...
On religion, I know exactly what you mean about feeling dishonest about partaking. Same thing here. I like the rituals for life events, but in the back of my mind am always feeing guilty and hypocritical for participating..Not the least of which I feel I am dissing the true believers as I am there as a pretender (mostly, that's the problem, the mostly thing.)
by artappraiser on Sat, 01/10/2015 - 4:23am
Alan Moore complained that there was no anarchism in the film version of V for Vendetta.
by Anonymous (not verified) on Sat, 01/10/2015 - 9:06am
New York Magazine's Daily Intelligencer: Very Bad Things category, Jan. 9: Saudi Arabia Is Giving a Blogger 1,000 Lashes for Insulting Islam
by artappraiser on Sat, 01/10/2015 - 4:39am
Horrible. A "religious" practice that should be insulted.
by Flavius on Sat, 01/10/2015 - 5:05am
This argument has a twist to it I think might interest you, Michael:
Why Self-Censorship of Controversial Artwork is Wrong
by artappraiser on Wed, 01/28/2015 - 10:48pm