MURDER, POLITICS, AND THE END OF THE JAZZ AGE
by Michael Wolraich
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New Mexico Pastor’s Son Killed Entire Family, Planned To Shoot Up Walmart
By Orion on Wed, 01/23/2013 - 4:36am |Drugs, guns and - you know - it might also be worth wondering if something is inherently wrong with the country's boys. Just saying.
URL:
http://newsone.com/2158290/nehemiah-griego-killed-family/?omcamp=sf_N1FB
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Comments
Wow, if there was ever an argument for not giving kids (especially, possibly, young males) access to a gun, this is it. (Sorry Resistance, this story and others like it are far more common than the story of the poor kids whose home was invaded, sad as that was.)
We know that kids don't have fully developed judgment skills until around age 25. (Maybe even later for some of us.) It just is not worth it to give them access to the arsenal. People are human, they get mad, they do dumb stuff.
by erica20 on Wed, 01/23/2013 - 10:42am
A cursory perusal of the current Republican Party would lead one to believe that some males never develop judgment skills at any age, unless you count deceit, duplicity and double dealing.
Another in the thousands of cases of gun owners getting shot with their own guns.
by NCD on Wed, 01/23/2013 - 11:00am
Just a hunch, but I suspect, the kid had other issues and much of it might have been discipline issues?
What ever did his siblings do?
We have to stop covering up for those, who are a threat to society.
Quit blaming honest, law abiding folks using them as scapegoats.
Accidents happen, but a child not under control, whose to blame?
The child was the cause of these deaths.
In ancient times, a community of elders was appointed to direct the affairs and to render a determination to keep the inhabitants safe.
If a child displayed lack of obedience or was rebellious, the PARENTS, took the child before the gathered court, and if the child didn't straighten up; the child was executed. The city inhabitants weren't to become victims.
The people were not to pity the decision, knowing it probably kept the community safer .
Today we feel sorry and coddle them, saying and sobbing "it's not their fault"
Darn it whose fault is it, when others lose their lives?
Yet I suppose, many might think or say "it was the first time he displayed his anger?
I don't blame the guns; this mad
manchild could have used a hammer or a spear when the family was sleeping.Maybe you would have heard about it, but the moment a GUN is mentioned?
IMHO, the family would still be alive today, if they had dealt with this child straight away, before he acted wickedly. The signs were probably there.
But the parents probably covered it up; probably out of love; and this is what they get from a child evidently incapable of love.
THE CHILD WAS AND IS; A THREAT TO SOCIETY.
by Resistance on Wed, 01/23/2013 - 12:14pm
Okay, so the parents should have executed the kid before he could hurt anybody?
I see a few problems with that concept--seems like maybe locking up the guns in the house would have been something to try first.
Also, could you please provide documentation for your reference to the society that executed its rebellious children?
by erica20 on Wed, 01/23/2013 - 12:19pm
No erica, I thought I made it clear, the appointed court rendered the judgment.
I suspect the court in many cases may have ordered the parents of unruly ones, to appear.
To illustrate
Imagine Little Haman, was breaking into every ones tents, being malicious, terrorizing the neighbors. Eventually the victims, of the little terror, were sick and tired of being ignored, by little Hamans parents.
What do you do? Do you allow yourselves to be repeatedly victimized by the lawless one?
Do you believe marauding shepherds and their communities, kept asylums or prisons?
I don't, knowing how hard it must have been, to just live, feeding your own family and just getting by, and now you say. you want us to coddle a lawless brat?
"Get outta here"
What do we do now, in our society with incorrigible children? We try to steer them to change their ways, but eventually if they decide to ignore the warnings then what?
Erica everyone in the camp had Spears and other weapons for hunting and SELF DEFENSE.
Little Haman was the problem.
If Haman didn't straighten up, the community dealt with the lawless ones, through the appointed court.
by Resistance on Wed, 01/23/2013 - 1:10pm
Ok, so the court required execution and/or allowed self-defense killings of lawless teenagers who couldn't be controlled by their parents.
I assume you'd favor a speedy trial and the electric chair for young Mr. Griego?
If that's the case, how should we identify similar lawless teens who might even now be languishing in the arms of their too-permissive parents and target them for speedy dispatch as well?
Proceed, Governor.
by erica20 on Wed, 01/23/2013 - 2:00pm
That's your assumption, but I thought a right to a speedy trial, was the defendants?
Civilized countries allow the defendants to prepare for trial. But a trial is going to occur none the less; despite the foot dragging by the defense or those who would keep trying to coddle and protect the murderer.
Accidental deaths are given some leeway, but not outright murder.
The punishment at one time was known to all citizens, and one could expect a teenager, could and should have expected a punishment, if anti-social conduct occurred. The punishment is according to the severity of the crime.
(A thought, maybe our Nation’s public hangings, were a lesson to all; this is the punishment ) ?
To your last point
It appears you believe YOUR strawman arguments, allow you to proceed with absurdities?
Again what's with the speedy dispatch?
I don't know of many psychopathic 5 year olds; but it is easy to identify bad traits, in younger children that need to be dealt with at an early age, before it's too late.
Too late, as respects the accused using the defense "I didn't know; society frowned on this type of conduct"
As for the Governor comment.
No Erica, who’s responsible to teach the citizens, what is acceptable behavior and what does the law prescribe as punishment, if the laws are ignored?
If you and other congregants want to protect murders from punishment, you pay for it. Don't expect other members of Society to pay for the coddling; we have a prescribed punishment.
Learn the law well; teach your children to observe it, because the law doesn’t give law breakers, too many chances to ignore it.
by Resistance on Wed, 01/23/2013 - 4:44pm
" it is easy to identify bad traits, in younger children that need to be dealt with at an early age, before it's too late." - this is an absurd statement.
For millenia parents have worried about traits that disappeared in puberty or on leaving the house, or thought they had a perfect child who then hung out with the wrong crowd and got in trouble or 300 other variants. Kids get bullied, have illnesses, traumatic experiences, or their awareness just changes which affects their behavior.
Why are these threads going into such bizarre twists?
And yes, we used to have Bleakhouse and factory jobs for kids. No need to coddle, put the little buggers to work making candles or selling matches in the street. Bill Sykes is my role model.
by PeraclesPlease on Thu, 01/24/2013 - 1:49am
That's right, Good parents have worried for millennia.
Watching little Johnnie grow up, to become a good child is a blessing; considering what he'll go through.
Warning Johnnie about how "bad associations can ruin useful habits" might protect him, if only he'll listen
Once Johnnie leaves the house all a good parent can do is hope, Johnnie listened and applies what he learned.
Maybe you should throw your Dr. Spock book away. That man ruined a generation with his absurd notions.
How Dr. Spock destroyed America
Excerpts
PS. Did you get up on the wrong side of the bed?
by Resistance on Thu, 01/24/2013 - 2:20am
My bed only has 2 wrong sides. However your post & link gave me a 3rd one.
Dr. Spock's been a target for right-wing nuts ever since he opposed the war.
He never condoned coddling children. There's a balance between neglecting them and pampering them. There's more to the last 50 years than 6 years of flower power. Violence fell through the 90's - does Dr. Spock get credit for that too? Our hippies built Microsoft, Apple, Gnu/Linux (incl. Android), Wikipedia.
The founder of Amazon comes from a classic teenage pregnancy, broken home, poor new immigrant step-father that right-wingers would love to point to as the moral decay of America - and this guy completely reinvents our retail model and the way we do computing services.
Mark Zuckerberg's father taught him programming before he was 10 - how Spock-like of him. The father should have sat in his chair reading the paper drinking his cocktail and let his son develop self-sufficiency by learning to mix his first daiquiri. Then we would have been spared Facebook and instead gotten another Raytheon engineer to build drones.
I imagine that most who recite this bullshit have never read Dr. Spock. On page 621 of my edition, he states: "Our only realistic hope, as I see it, is first to bring up our children with a feeling that they are in this world not for their own satisfaction but primarily to serve others. Children are proud to think that they can be truly useful and they will rise to the challenge. This attitude can be instilled when they're very young."
Got a problem with that attitude?
On pages 12-14 he addresses Quality Time, Special Time, and "The Temptation to Spoil".
Running around tossing out long-debunked right-wing tropes that you haven't considered doesn't make you very popular or respected.
by PeraclesPlease on Thu, 01/24/2013 - 6:19am
Thanks Peracles I’ll try to remember; I should just drink the koolaid to get along?
In conclusion, I’ll leave another perspective from another source, I haven’t read the whole article yet, but this snippet, is that okay I hope so, because I found some of your Dr Spocks snippets acceptable.
Child Discipline and Parenting Philosophy - Yahoo! Voices - voices ...
I’ll say it again, I saw these scenarios day in and day out and a common aspect was these parents, recommending to me, Dr.Spock and them saying to me “ you should like him too, he’s opposed to the war.”
Forget the koolaid, I’m not running for a popularity contest I don’t intend to sit down and join the Circle J ranch, I express my opinions based upon my experiences.
I'd have a lot more to say about how You judge success.
But lets agree to disagree. I told you I agreed 99.9%, well we just found the .1%
by Resistance on Thu, 01/24/2013 - 7:15am
I've no idea where you got into all these discussions about Dr. Spock. But there have been spoiled children since time immemorial.
You also don't even discuss other obvious factors, such as TV launching around the same time, bringing advertising, materialism, lust for more toys & gadgets into the house, combined with post-war prosperity and great shifts into suburbs and off the farm.
Or how about the sudden boom in toys as post-war synthetics like nylon, acrylic, formica, polyester (here's a description of the 1946 nylon riots). Think having 10 toys instead of 1 might promote more selfish behavior?
Instead it's guns & Dr. Spock & religion?
by PeraclesPlease on Thu, 01/24/2013 - 7:58am
It should be obvious to any GOOD parent. If little Johnnie, is allowed to throw a temper tantrum and decides to throw a knife, in mom and dad’s direction; Hmmm Peracles; you think you can identify a bad trait?
I never said we can’t love our children and coddle them with love,
But there comes a time when discipline is necessary, and we don't coddle or reward bad behavior.
Now that is a bizarre twist, really absurd, that you thought my comment suggested any such thing.
by Resistance on Thu, 01/24/2013 - 2:34am
Define "GOOD parent" or "GOOD child". Obama's father was an irresponsible bigamist lush and his mom sent him off to live with his grandparents, but he became Senator & President. Other parents have doted over their kids only to find their emotional problems become bigger or they run into problems with peer pressure. I imagine the only measure you have of a "GOOD parent" is if the kid turns out okay, which is just a tautology. Was Patti Hearst a bad kid before kidnapped by the SLA?
Your whole schtick in this thread is to assume and pre-suppose that the kid here had obvious problems and the parents ignored ways of dealing with him (including infanticide - how quaint - get him before he commits parricide). There are thousands of ADHD kids who need medication to calm down, not asphyxiation with a pillow. Some need psychological help, some need a physical change, some need mood swings of deep attention and forced self-sufficiency. I've been through all this. Some kids are easy, some not. The kid here probably was similar to 1000's of others, but only he murdered his family. Blaming it all on the parent or Dr. Spock for not picking out the Bad Seed? Life deals good and bad hands. There is no proscriptive medicine for curing all life's ills or riding the good times right - there are heuristics, but they're incomplete. Deal with it.
by PeraclesPlease on Thu, 01/24/2013 - 6:34am
and all the other conditions you mentioned, I do not disagree.
Your asphyxiation cure is over the top
Get help, get the government and charities to help.
Just get them help before..... societies tool to rid society of criminals; the Sword of Justice does.
by Resistance on Thu, 01/24/2013 - 7:42am
Your comment suggested the bizarre. Do you know that little Johnnie threw a knife and mom & dad ignored him? Could they have beat him senseless, dragged him to dozens of shrinks, put him on work details and in homes? You don't know, nor do I.
But yeah, Bill Sykes knows when an upstart waif needs the back of a hand or a good throttling. A keen eye for that he's got, don't take no lip neither.
by PeraclesPlease on Thu, 01/24/2013 - 6:39am
Sounds alot like a drama I saw once. It may have had the character Sykes?
Oh by the way, Did you hear, this last killer, immensely loved, violent video games?
by Resistance on Thu, 01/24/2013 - 7:30am
Lemme guess - he also loved ice cream. And had a mother. And ate food. And breathed.
by PeraclesPlease on Thu, 01/24/2013 - 8:22am
I wonder how he responded to his mothers demands, to wash up, clean up your room come to the dinner table and afterwards you have chores to do. NOW TURNOFF THAT D..N computer.
How he responded the first time would have been a clue?
by Resistance on Thu, 01/24/2013 - 10:22am
Resistance, a few less guns in the hands of gun owners, guns to stand behind you when you and your gun confront Doomsday Tyranny. My condolences, and they were only exerting their Doomsday Provision 2nd Amendment rights to have guns around, now the guns are still here and they are gone.
I assume the family had a hammer. Yeah, why not hammer his family to death? Good point.
The kid also might have used curare tipped punji sticks, blue ringed octopus in the bath water, or venomous cone shells in the shoes. Why the gun? Did he hate the NRA? He didn't even die with it in his hand.
Only Wayne LaPierre or Resistance could perhaps explain. BLOG IT Resistance, why do we have 30,000 killed by guns each year and only a handful from hammers?
by NCD on Wed, 01/23/2013 - 3:07pm
TROLL
Did you post this comment, as continual harrasment, in hopes of sparking an argument?.
I am reminded; DON'T FEED THE TROLLS.
End.
by Resistance on Wed, 01/23/2013 - 4:52pm
Resistance, I have said I admire your courage and your readiness to defeat Tyranny with your gun. Hammers may be enough to kill a family as you mention above, but the Founding Fathers knew they were not enough for bigger threats, therefore the 2nd Amendment Doomsday Provision.
If that is trolling, then I am your own personal troll as no one else here is as far out there in the defense of your freedom to blog, which I am still waiting for you to do for the first time.
by NCD on Wed, 01/23/2013 - 5:12pm
Hey folks, would you please give this a rest? Please focus on the topics and not the behavior of the bloggers. Thanks.
by Michael Wolraich on Wed, 01/23/2013 - 6:00pm