MURDER, POLITICS, AND THE END OF THE JAZZ AGE
by Michael Wolraich
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US govt-sponsored website Bellingcat disrupts MH17 trial in Netherlands
By A Guy Called LULU on Sat, 01/02/2021 - 6:11pm |For six years the British website Bellingcat has promoted Ukraine’s narrative that Russia shot down Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 (MH17).
URL:
https://thegrayzone.com/2021/01/02/bellingcat-disrupts-mh17-trial-netherlands/
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Comments
Oh Jesus, make it stop.
by PeraclesPlease on Sat, 01/02/2021 - 7:22pm
Is Tankie stuff According to Noah Smith's "Tankies!" essay The GreyZone is generally known as one of the main publications catering to "tankie" ideology. That we have discussed Lulu sharing links from it before is the main reason why I posted and shared Smith's "Tankie" essay here instead of just reading it for myself. (And even in particular, I chose the excerpt I did because some things in it reminded me of someone here.)
by artappraiser on Sat, 01/02/2021 - 9:54pm
Assange superseding indictments
by PeraclesPlease on Sun, 01/03/2021 - 12:43am
I see that Rational Wiki is in the process of making a list: Draft:The Grayzone, possibly like overwhelming...
by artappraiser on Sun, 01/03/2021 - 2:50am
AA, it is not surprising that instead of reading the article I posted and commenting on *it* you instead immediately go to google looking for some backup to smear the site which carried it. It is also not surprising that someone who questions U.S. policies and actions and points out failures and lies and even war crimes would make some enemies. It is even less surprising that hard core Zionists and hard core Israel supporters would hate Blumenthal. So it would be an obvious guess that you could find what you were looking for.
Here are a couple questions. Do you think Bellingcat is influential? Do you think they are giving impartial analysis? Do you think the article says that Russia did not shoot down flight MH17? Have you yet read the article I posted which you try to discredit without even making direct reference to it? What parts of it do you think are wrong or insufficiently supported? [I know, you would have to actually read it to actually respond intelligently] There are plenty more questions but I think it would be more productive for me to go ask a fence post.
by A Guy Called LULU on Sun, 01/03/2021 - 5:16pm
You are entitled to attempt to share what you think interesting, but your reader is not *required* to read it!!!
ESPECIALLY if they have come to the conclusion that your source is a fucking waste of time bunch of propaganda and conspiracy theories when there is so much better content to read and only so many hours in a life.
What you do is actually described well in Noah Smith's "Tankie" article. It's like this: here's another conspiratorial anti-American article, prove it wrong or I am going to get angry.
Actually, the reality is: it is your job to find people who are interested enough in this crap to argue with you about it. I've come to the point after seeing you post for a decade or more where the only thing of interest to me is: oh, Lulu is recommending something, it's most likely another anti-american site or author, better check it out so I know. Nearly as regular as rain, I've found I can count on this: same old shit. To the point when you deviate to something else, anything else, besides anti-american agit-prop, it's a shock!
by artappraiser on Sun, 01/03/2021 - 5:44pm
One of your many mistakes is that I am angry. Another mistake is that by criticizing American governmental actions that person is automatically anti-American. Love it or leave it is so yesterday.
by A Guy Called LULU on Sun, 01/03/2021 - 5:52pm
The way I see it is that you almost always pick "so yesterday" issues to expound upon as if "love it or leave it" was still very much the zeitgeist. I've said as much several times to you in the last few years.
I'm interested in history, but not the hard core war and international relations stuff, that bores me. But I am actually a quite experienced cultural historian now simply by virtue of my age after my education. And to me, you're like an archeological artifact, what you pick is interesting, not to read, but just to see what you pick. it's like oh gosh some of them from the love it or leave it zeigeist like when I was an undergrad are still around.
And actually, if you read the "Tankies" excerpt I posted, you are back "in" with some of the youngin's, its a retro revival of your interests, anti-colonialism and all...
by artappraiser on Sun, 01/03/2021 - 6:05pm
by PeraclesPlease on Sun, 01/03/2021 - 3:43pm
There are several versions of every news story out there. Since none of us can do independent research and reporting the most important decision we must first make is which sites and reporters are telling the most accurate versions of the story. That people don't do this is the biggest problem we face in the internet age. Far too many are choosing versions that appeal to their heightened emotions and confirmation bias. While this happens on all political sides it's far more prominent on the far right. And so we have the Seth Rich murder conspiracies, or QAnon, or pizza gate etc.
Post what you like but don't be surprised when the first thing we look at is the source before we consider what the source is reporting.
by ocean-kat on Mon, 01/04/2021 - 3:17pm
I go to RealClearPolitics periodically just to remind myself that no matter how clear an issue seems, they'll find some rightwing goon to champion some neanderthal oppo view. Arm 3-year-olds? sure. Forced insemination for churches? You betcha. Clear cut Idaho? Why not... It's like waiting for Trump approval to dip below 41% - just won't happen, however logical it'd be.
The shame of recording your extortionist - how could he?
'Disgusting': Perdue hammers Georgia secretary of state for recording Trump call - POLITICO
by PeraclesPlease on Mon, 01/04/2021 - 4:29pm
Post what you like ... ... [ Thanks, I will ] ... .. but don't be surprised when the first thing we look at is the source before we consider what the source is reporting.
I already said in my response to AA that I was not surprised at the nature of her response. You see, she didn't go looking for information about the author of the particular article and whether he was a credible journalist and whether his supporting links were credible, for the purpose of deciding whether to read the article or not. She went looking for attack ammunition. That fits the definition of trolling, doesn't it?
You emphasize "first" a couple times. That seems a bit counter-intuitive to me. I think most people would reverse that sequence. They would either ignore an article or else read it and following that, if it raised questions of interest that is, they would go to google including the articles internal links, looking for answers as to the articles credibility etc. Or, maybe if it seemed credible but with controversial information, to find If there are reasons to dispute the authors evidence. That is, if determining it's credibility and weighing its evidence is even considered, if it is really any part of the reason to respond in the first place.
If your curiosity was sparked enough to read the article I would like to know if you have anything to say about it, if you think it has anything important to say on an important topic.
by A Guy Called LULU on Mon, 01/04/2021 - 8:43pm
No, that's not the definition of trolling.
It's kinda the definition of experience.
The topic may have been important years ago - old & musty & "been there/done that"/not worth the time now
by PeraclesPlease on Mon, 01/04/2021 - 10:16pm
The topic which is detailed somewhat tediously is Bellingcat. A great deal of evidence is given that he is a very effective propagandist in the worst sense of the word rather than a purveyor of honest reporting. He is still around, He is still very active, and consent is still being manufactured. How can it be that it is it unimportant old news to point out the nature of his organization?
by A Guy Called LULU on Mon, 01/04/2021 - 10:59pm
Because we don't believe Grayzone or most of your favorite sources, after years of debunking them. If you surprise us by a source we haven't burned already, we might be surprised and give some credence. Until then, it's doubtful old news, and considering when Syria happened and the betrayal of the Kurds since, etc, not sure why this still rises to "important" for you - you get to "own" the imperialists? Assad and Erdogan and Putin are already carrying that flame in the Mideast, sometimes Israel. If you want to Bonesaw or tripwire or poison or chemdrop someone there, don't call us - there are better actors to rely on.
by PeraclesPlease on Mon, 01/04/2021 - 11:10pm
How about The New York Times? They have put out plenty of damaging misinformation, held back important information, had reporters caught telling deliberate lies, published what most people have considered to be stupid opinions; at what point does everything they publish get blackballed without first being read?
by A Guy Called LULU on Mon, 01/04/2021 - 11:30pm
What are you, my mother? I'm not here to have you vet my choices or explain all of them. I've told you in detail over the years where I think much of yours suck and why, yet you keep coming back for abuse. No I'd don't take every mainstream story on face value except where it doesn't matter that much. Yeah, if I trusted you I'd look at alternate versions more deeply, but I already did that time and time again to find a sickening vat of overwrought propaganda and and innuendo, half the time feeling like Sputnik or just whackadoo (where are those "VIPS" now?) And then you were quoting some guy pulling a hatchet job on @Atrupar a month or so ago - what the fuck was that about?
by PeraclesPlease on Tue, 01/05/2021 - 12:23am
You sound angry. Why? Is it caused by the cognitive dissidence created by the excuses you come up with to dish out the abuse you refer to and an attempt to create a coherence between that and the reality of the real world that in its dynamic doesn't release its whole ongoing story as fast as you declare what the whole story is? Do you have unresolved issues with your mother that cause you page rage if someone doesn't join you in a big group hug after each of your proclamations?
by A Guy Called LULU on Tue, 01/05/2021 - 12:47am
Ah, not my mother - my shrink. Or both?
Here's a piece on Saagar Enjeti that i found interesting, in relation to his takedown of Aaron Rupar. I thought the Marxism bit notable, but overall it was written with some methodical insight for a right-of-aisle piece.
https://news.yahoo.com/saagar-enjeti-superficial-smarts-193859280.html
by PeraclesPlease on Tue, 01/05/2021 - 12:57am
So in posting that critique of Enjeti are you endorsing everything the author says about Enjeti or are you a bit more realistically saying that he presents analysis and opinion of Enjeti that is worth considering to add with thoughtful consideration to what ever opinion you already have? Does the link I posted where his theme was that If the election was disputed it could lead to big troubles and which, if I recall correctly you described as total bullshit, and the one here that you have posted cover everything you know about Enjeti? Do you think he might ever have something of value, or at least of interest, to say?
by A Guy Called LULU on Tue, 01/05/2021 - 1:31am
In watching that video, Enjeti's a smarmy asshat. Yes, there are real dangers to validating Laura Ingraham. Might be worth it, but consider how she, Fox & the right are using you at the same time. They are effective propaganda functioning as a GOP policy arm & disinformation unit. Pretending it's just hobnobbing with the other side is naive.
Then there's attacking Flournoy for contending China's our greatest challenge. This is China spending hundreds of billions on Belt and Road expansion around the world, China setting up factories in Xinjiang concentration camps for Muslims (frei Arbeit macht viel Geld), who are building fake islands on the Pacific Ocean, expanding their navy incl subs, and encroaching on other countries' territory.
Then there's attacking Flournoy and Blinken for gasp making money as defense consultants after serving the government for decades at reduced rates as top-of-the-line defense personnel. Presumably she should bake cookies or work at Starbucks rather than help defense corporations do a better job in offering services to the US government. Because next best to pulling all roops from Afghanistan is letting US military operations fail there (along with other places), amirite? Cuz working with European allies to keep Qaddafi from carrying out his promise to wipe out civilians in Benghazi? Bad bad bad.
So that's roughly what Ro Khanna was signing on with for Ingraham's show, work with Ingraham to kneecap a totally Democratic cabinet nominee. Great, dude - I'm sure she'll call in those chits when the time is right. Let's defund the DoD , turn it all over to Peace Nick's and instead use it to stop North Dakota pipeline a, cuz defense is so passé with American aggression on top.
But think of all those insulting terms Enjeti came up with for Rupar. I mean really over-the--top stuff if him being the worst if the worst, what's wrong with Democrats today. Like what? So yeah, smarmy asshat. You heard it here first. Maybe.
Would have to see the link re: protesting the elections.
https://youtu.be/A3IdsooYclQ
by PeraclesPlease on Tue, 01/05/2021 - 8:21am
by PeraclesPlease on Wed, 01/06/2021 - 7:14pm
SHEESH she can't believe that, what a sell out panderer to the old Fox News demographic. I do remember when she was once a member of the shining "new young neo-cons" on the cover of the New York Times Magazine, an actual edujamacted person with sophisticated opinions. (Not to mention it was leaked just a day ago that the Proud Boys were promising to do just the opposite!) If I remember correctly I think Bill Kristol may have been a mentor, he must be so embarassed of her!
by artappraiser on Wed, 01/06/2021 - 9:54pm
here it makes clearer where Fox News is going with this whole thing: law and order politicians vs. allowing protesters to go crazy, and the liberals are against law and order. Which would conveniently appeal to their elderly audience. They can drop the antifa thing and still do it. It's the same old Gingrich Republicanism:
by artappraiser on Thu, 01/07/2021 - 3:46pm
p.s. both sides do it I fully admit I am sympathetic.
by artappraiser on Thu, 01/07/2021 - 3:53pm
not just musty old stuff but absurd to the point of arguing how many angels can fit on the head of a pin while this is the major international news not to mention this complicating. We are basically living the movie "Independence Day" but there's no one leading the fight against the aliens. I understand that everyone's got their own parlor games and distractions to keep themselves sane, and I don't begrudge if that's their thing, but getting outraged right now about Judith Miller is not my cup of tea, seems about the same as getting outraged about Genghis Kahn, the Cambridge Five or Lee Harvey Oswald. ANCIENT HISTORY! Bring it up again when the whole world is vaccinated and there's like international travel, mass transit, real schools, other health care instead of putting it off, normal childhoods, restaurants bars and cafes, live entertainment business, maybe I'll be interested in relitigating what Obama did with drones or some such.
Edit to add: forget the lies NYTimes and WaPo may have been involved with in the past. Their new job has basically been merely trying to keep up with counting lies from not just leaders but all sectors of society all around the world, barely finding the time and money to debunk some of them.
by artappraiser on Tue, 01/05/2021 - 6:03am
and furthermore, they'll probably give two shits, think about it:
by artappraiser on Tue, 01/05/2021 - 6:05am
Yeah, if this end within a year, it'll be right up there with reading all the Harry Potter books or some other faddish phase.
by PeraclesPlease on Tue, 01/05/2021 - 10:10am
Wait, is it British? US? Crowdfunded/kickstarter?Gov funded? They list Soros... All of the above?
Very mysterious of him to switch from BrownMoses to Bellingcat 2 days before MH-17. Of course if he'd known about MH-17 ahead of time, you'd think he'd wait 3 days to launch as a *reaction* to MH-17. What say you, GrayZone? Oh, apparently GrayZone has trouble reading, because below the Jul 15, 2014 post is one from Jul 1, 2014 where they announced the Kickstarter for Bellingcat. Even more suspicious! 2 weeks! THat's 7 times 2 days!
Damning - Eliot Higgins reported on Syria but doesn't speak Arabic! (except his work was looking at video clips & identifying weapons systems, which doesn't quite require Arabic)
More damning - Eliot HIggins' claims ape those by BBC, a Dutch investigative group, Australian news, and pretty much every other normal news joint that looked into it. #FakeNews!!! Damn the Beeb...
And the Joint Task force with Malaysia & Holland & Belgium & Ukraine & Australia was so lazy they just accepted Bellingcat's version without investigating themselves!!!
Guess I could go on & on, but this is far past Bellingcat now, no?
Do you believe Russia stole Crimea & the Azov Sea?
or that they poisoned Navalny and the dissident & daughter in Salisbury?
Do you believe that Manafort gave Kilimnik 2016 polling data in a Ukraine meeting?
Do you believe Marina Butina ran around with the NRA compromising Republicans?
Just trying to baseline your level of disbelief.
by PeraclesPlease on Tue, 01/05/2021 - 10:08am
Russia still in Syria & Libya- how's that working out for human rights & ending the war? Guess it only matters when it's the US involved, even for Assange.
https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/10/08/after-five-years-of-fighting-in-syr...
Good FP deep dive on Russia in Syria (pdf, 186 pages)
https://www.fpri.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/russias-war-in-syria.pdf
by PeraclesPlease on Tue, 01/05/2021 - 4:16pm