Michael Maiello's picture

    Freedom to Defend...

    I had high hopes for this op-ed called "Freedom to Offend Everyone" but Nesrine Malik has completely confirmed my otherwise irrational belief that non-Americans don't understand how freedom of expression works at all, ever, in any context. Malik concludes, wrongly:

    "Those who fancy themselves defenders of free speech must be consistent in their absolutism, and stand up for offensive speech no matter who is the target."

    Malik arrives here via a string of anecdotes arguing that show free speech defenders only seem to get riled up to defend those who offend Islam, sitting out other battles where people say offensive things about gays, African Americans or other marginalized groups.  He sums up the brouhaha over Brandeis University deciding that conferring an honorary degree on Ayaan Hirsi Alli would be a huge mistake:

    "Had Ms. Hirsi Ali been a widely acknowledged homophobe, or white supremacist, would free speech supporters have rushed so readily to their lecterns to defend her? Probably not, which is why the right to offend should be extended to all. Otherwise, our personal preferences will always dictate that there be exceptions."

    This is precisely the point of free speech.  We all get to open our mouths without government interference but that is about it.  Whether or not people like what you have to say or go to any length at all to defend your right to say it is out of the speaker's control and beyond any sort of reasonable expectation.  If Christian protesters destroy Andres Serrano's "Piss Christ" that might draw some serious condemnation from art world supporters of free speech.  But there's a very good chance that the destruction of a similar work of lesser cultural import would garner no attention at all.  That isn't, strictly speaking, fair but all art is not equally valued by cultural or financial markets.

    Homophobia is fast becoming unacceptable in mainstream U.S. culture.  You can come in for some serious shaming for saying certain things or donating to certain causes.  Malik might not have been paying attention but Brendan Eich, the now former CEO of Mozila, had plenty of defenders who did not think it appropriate that he lose his job over his donation to a homophobic political cause.  He even had defenders on the left (see the comments) who are wary of mobs and who want to foster an open society.  But, I still think Malik is broadly correct that a homophobic speaker will draw fewer supporters than somebody who speaks against Islam.

    Well, all art isn’t equally valued and neither are all religions.  If the problem is that people attack all sorts of offensive speech but then clam up when the subject of Islam comes up the problem is not with Western culture, the problem is with Islam.  Why is it not inspiring people to come to its defense?  Well, it doesn’t help that to some degree people who practice the religion believe that people who don’t should still abide by rules about drawing Mohamed.

    “Earlier this year, a prospective British parliamentary candidate, who happened to be a Muslim, tweeted a cartoon of Jesus and Mohammed, part of “Jesus and Mo,” an irreverent series depicting the two religious figures in everyday situations. Some Muslims saw this as deliberately provocative and there was a backlash, including death threats. When mainstream British media outlets such as the BBC did not show the cartoon, the British press branded them cowards, traitors and free-speech equivocators.

    Unfortunately for these critics, a few days later, the infamous French comedian Dieudonné Mbala-Mbala was banned from entering Britain because of his anti-Semitic rants. From those who had penned thousands of words warning of the danger of muzzling our voices when it comes to criticism of Islam, I counted one tweet. In the British broadsheets, there was only one article criticizing Mr. Dieudonné’s banning.”

    See, the problem here is not one of equality, it’s one of sympathy.  On one hand, you have a group of crazy people getting bent out of shape over a Tweeted comic strip.  That the BBC caved to the demands of those crazy people is offensive and worth getting riled up about.  Is it offensive to call those people crazy?  No.  Acting in accordance with religious beliefs does not make a person sane whether it’s Islam or Scientology.  Threatening to kill people over line drawings is insane behavior in any context.

    At the same time, I think it’s stupid that Britain bans comedians who are offensive and I would urge our former imperial overlords to rethink their laws but I am not going to lose sleep or waste energy on a pig like Mbala-Mbala.  I don’t have to like what you say to support your right to say it, but I also don’t have to go to the mat for you if I don’t like you.

    Am I saying that Islam is insufficiently likable to muster people to its rhetorical aid?  Well, we know that isn’t true.  It is the second largest religion in the world by number of believers so the PR problem isn’t all bad.  Still in the context of the Western World, Malik says there is a problem.

    “The reaction to the Brandeis affair is a troubling harbinger. It suggests that America, like Europe, might also begin to pick and choose who deserves to be protected from offensive speech. Once that door is open, the Trojan horse of libertarianism will smuggle in intolerance.”

    Brandeis offered her an honorary degree.  People did, in fact, stand up for Islam and told Brandeis to reconsider.  Brandeis reconsidered.  Other people are angry at Brandeis for that.  But guess what?  Ali is not getting that honorary degree.  Islam’s defenders won a round.  The debate continues.  But not with me.  I could care less who Brandeis gives it’s honorary degrees to (unless they offer me one, then I care.  I’ll take a physics).

    Topics: 

    Comments

    "First they came for the internet CEO's, then they came for the Brandeis Honorary Degree candidates...." Give me a break.

    Great distracting grist for controversy loving 24/7 TV news/talk shows/pundits. The CEO still has a job, and the speaker was still invited to speak, minus the degree.

    'Little people' can still be legally fired for the bumper sticker they put on their car. We should be angry about that.


    You write: "At the same time, I think it’s stupid that Britain bans comedians who are offensive and I would urge our former imperial overlords to rethink their laws".

    The comedian in question is a foreigner with a string of criminal convictions. He was denied a Visa. US law is if anything even more rigorous when it comes to refusing Visas to those with a criminal record (try to convince US immigrations that the verbal citation you got from a police officer 35 years ago for being drunk in a public place (after graduation day) really has been expunged, and no, there is no record from that time to document it...)

    So we stick with our law for the time being, if that is OK with you.  Since I have your attention though, there is that small matter of your taxes being long overdue, and some damage to tea that needs paying for - but I'm sure the cheque is in the post. ..

    yours sincerely etc pp

    'S rioghal mo dhream


    Yes, U.S. immigration people can be an overly priggish bunch.  I believe Nigella Lawson, of all the world's harmless people, was denied entry because of public statements she's made about her recreational cocaine use.  What we really need is a global understanding that the right to travel the world freely is fundamental to all humans and can only be interfered with in extreme cases.  But, neither of our governments is anywhere close to that.

    As for the spilled tea.  We have to dump it.  We don't know how to make a decent cup of the stuff.


    What, Lawson? Haven't you read her Totally Chocolate Chocolate Chips recipe? A weapon of mass destruction if ever there was one, designed  to wipe out entire populations from coronary artery disease.

    That woman...<mompf>... is sheer evil.. <mompf>...<starts crying uncontrollably>

    Let's all waddle on Washington to ensure our borders are kept safe from her. 


    I would add only that most Americans don't understand how freedom of expression works either. Nice piece.


    I would suggest some reading of "Tragedy of the Commons" to consider how we might destroy our marketplace of ideas along with our public spaces. Summaries can be found here and here.

    I think you're right that Americans don't understand this, which is how the "left" is adopting non-liberal strategies to get their way similar (if not so extreme) to that used by the right. (scare-quotes are in use because anyone adopting thuggish peer shaming to shut down simple expression isn't exactly "left")

    While some have claimed it's just being on the right side of history, I'd posit that in 400 years time, much of our "right side" will be deemed primitive, curious and seriously flawed, much like our ape ancestors who debated proper etiquette as to which side of the granite slab is correct to put rock and club when dining on recently bashed-to-death antelope, and whether to slurp the entrails before or after the main course.

    The point being, I don't think the actual opinions in the debate are as important as the principles upheld in allowing the debate. I keep coming back to the "jumping gene" that was laughed at har-har-har for some good 30 years, poor woman, until finally someone twigged on the surprising fact that she was correct. I detect quite a bit of assurance that "we'll let those loonies rave on, only because we're the tolerant side of the fence" rather than a piercing intellect trying to decipher where its own conclusions might be flawed even if only partially.

    The Eich thing still seems strange to me as a snapshot in year 2014 (partially in 2008) of a complex evolving international debate on a particular issue, including hundreds of cultures, religions, personalities, and variations even within those large-drawn lines. Morphologically speaking, it's probably not that different from debates about global warming, peace dividends, women in the workforce, offshoring & a number of other riling topics - part's based on facts, part on tradition & habits, part on gut feelings and rising emotions. That complexity and the realizing how often we're wrong about nature, reported facts and other data should foster quite a bit of humility. Sadly or happily though, self-assurance seems to be one stock that's always rising.

    Herés one of Barbara McClintock's perceptive comments, which I suspect can be applied to many fields. Apparently, she was very much riled by arrogance in opinion.

    "Over the years I have found that it is difficult if not impossible to bring to consciousness of another person the nature of his tacit assumptions when, by some special experiences, I have been made aware of them. This became painfully evident to me in my attempts during the 1950s to convince geneticists that the action of genes had to be and was controlled. It is now equally painful to recognize the fixity of assumptions that many persons hold on the nature of controlling elements in maize and the manners of their operation. One must await the right time for conceptual change."[53]

    Buckminster Fuller made similar observations - rather than changing people, we have to create the groundwork for when they're ready to accept change. I'm getting great delight that Bucky-inspired discovery of Fullerene is showing not only great promise in next generation materials, but is validating his geometrical approach to nature that he pushed pretty much alone for decades. But some would say he was just crazy, and if he goes against the tide, why shouldn't he suffer by losing his position, funding, be laughed down in public, or like some great computer scientists, be chemically castrated? It's all part of the tragedy of the commons - how we pull down what we don't actually own or comprehend.


    I agree with you on almost all points, but with a bow to Maiello's eloquent argument, these arguments have little to do with freedom of speech. The human propensity to reject "abnormal" ideas, whether executed by a board of directors or a peer-reviewed scientific journal, does not violate anyone's freedom of speech. Only when the government starts arresting people because of their opinions and expressions does freedom of speech come into play.


    "Only when the government starts arresting people because of their opinions and expressions does freedom of speech come into play."

    And it is at that point that we have a responsibility to defend freedom of speech and expression.

     


    Sorry, by then it's too late. We have to defend freedom of speech and expression much earlier than arrest.


    So, how do we do this? Do we shun those who suggest we should shun those with unpopular ideas? Seems a tad bit recursive. Do we actually violate the first amendment by passing laws to prevent people from boycotting companies whose CEOs have unpopular opinions?

    Don't take those as putting words in your mouth, because I know you're not suggesting any of those ideas. However, other than shaking one's (metaphorical) fist at people who did the boycotting associated with Eich I don't understand what your suggestion actually is.


    Proclaim loudly that we should accept people's personal opinions, and they're irrelevant to a CEO's job performance - whether how he/she looks, religion, specific beliefes, friendships, whatever.

    Yeah, pretty pathetic response to respond to shunning by suggesting loudly speaking out rather than more shunning - maybe will come up with a better idea later.


    Well, sure, but arrest is when one really should face up to the responsibility that accompanies the right because there are accepted legal exceptions and limitations to free speech that seem to have been forgotten or maybe were never learned. See this recent news report for example:

    Ohio man sentenced to hold 'BULLY' sign jeered, taunted - chicagotribune.com

    The man is maybe the most unsympathetic example possible but he was arrested and convicted for offensive things he said to other people.

    There are several aspects to the story that disturbed me and one of them was the question of his right to free speech. Because constitutional law was never part of my day job, I had to stop reading and look up the subject to refresh my memory. It would have been helpful if the reporter done that as part of the story. I remember when reporters included those sorts of reminders routinely. [Why oh why can't we have a better press corps?]

    Granted I was more intrigued by the form his punishment took -- public shaming. It seemed pretty clear from the story that the man has no shame so what was that judge thinking? 

    Then there are the passersby jeering and taunting a man for jeering and taunting others. 

    There was much to think about in an offbeat human interest story. Much better than that silly trolley thought experiment. 

     


    Reject "abnormal" ideas? Much of this debate is about rejecting accepted majority ideas, and shaming & causing economic damage to those in the majority. "Homophobia is fast becoming unacceptable in mainstream U.S. culture." Oh yes, so disagreeing with gay marriage is "homophobic" even if you support gay unions with full legal and medical and inheritance and adoption rights?

    Sorry, "freedom of speech" isn't just about government - it's about your neighbors, your community. Blacks theoretically had rights since 1865, but as long as the community made a joke of those rights, government proclamations were useless.  

    "If the problem is that people attack all sorts of offensive speech but then clam up when the subject of Islam comes up the problem is not with Western culture, the problem is with Islam.  Why is it not inspiring people to come to its defense?" Goddamn Jews - why do they have to be so different? Everyone else gets along, only the Jews have to stick out. Why aren't they inspiring people to come to their defense? See how easy this game is to play? 

    No, it's not an eloquent argument - it's lazy and arbitrary. It's exactly what I hate about it - people picking what are the "acceptable". I'm an atheist, but for society to function *well*, to grow into positive futures my small mind and experience and prejudices would never imagine, I and others should accept that others will have what we see as "strange" religious or philosophical or political or sexual or other beliefs. Some people are shy about sex, some are promiscuous, some are perverse, some are....  All of this is perfectly acceptable, they can exist side by side, they can all think their way is the right way - none of them should be inherently punished for those beliefs.

    Yeah, we start getting into practical issues on anything - is it "homophobic" to be against posters showing blowjobs on the streets, or is it an acceptable level of societal prudery? 30 years ago, showing naked breasts was a lot less accepted than today - are all the people who disagree with it sex-o-phobic or misogynist? Some may disagree from a feminist being-used-and-degraded standpoint, others from a religious standpoint of sin-against-god, others may just think it's not very aesthetic, others think it should be limited to 18 and over viewing. None of these views have much better standing than the others - they're opinion, and we we need to find a way where they can mostly co-exist, while carefully figuring out where real damage trumps individual choice and freedom - mostly not something for the courts to decide.

    So here we have a guy who notices that Muslims get targeted as "terrorists", but the right-wing white asshole who killed a few Jews the other day isn't labeled such. The NYPD can set up surveillance of Muslim hangouts like falafel houses to look for subversion, US liberals can cheer Ali's speaking out for Muslim women's rights, but then as a society we're completely unable to confront a vast recurring rape from football hoodlums and college campuses in general. Why should a Muslim be content with the smearing of their religion, culture, personal selves, when this arbitrary preference is everywhere? Would Timothy McVeigh ever get searched at an airport, or is targeting brown Mideasterners a type of constant racism that's a price we white & black folks will gladly accept for our shaky security? Would we accept drone killing of villages in Romania or Belgium, or is it that Afghanistan and Iraq and Yemen are so exceptional that we let it slide as a slightly distasteful necessity?

    Freedom of religion was once mentioned in the Constitution if I recall correct - I guess it's quaint to dismiss people's deep-held views as bonkers and superstition - but then sometimes that's where great ideas come from - at least for self-motivation. Why not?

    I'm sorry Malik's opinion was dismissed so readily - it's a conversation we'll be embarrassed didn't happen sooner.


    I agree with you regarding Malik and the suggestion that Muslims should just do a better job of making their religion palatable. I think that we should treat Muslims with respect, and that means shaming those who would say inflammatorily false items about Islam, just as I feel we should shame those who would encourage discriminating against homosexuals.

    With regards to discriminating against homosexuals, I think the word "homophobic" has unfortunately become synonymous with "bigoted against homosexuals", which annoys those who like the meaning of their words to adhere to their roots. (One can be bigoted against homosexuals without being afraid of them or homosexuality in general, of course.) That said, I do believe that to advocate a separate type of union for homosexuals (denying them the right to say they are "married"), is de facto being bigoted against homosexuals. I have a hard time understanding how it could be seen any other way.

    I do find it interesting that you agree with Malik that we should shame those who would say inflammatorily false things about Islam, but disagree with the notion that we should shame those who are bigoted against homosexuality. I also find it interesting that others feel the reverse.


    I do find it interesting that you agree with Malik that we should shame those who would say inflammatorily false things about Islam, but disagree with the notion that we should shame those who are bigoted against homosexuality.

    Uh, where did I say we should shame people?


    I inferred it. How would you characterize your position regarding what Brandeis should've done? (I thought you were agreeing with Malik.)


    I said already I don't think Ali is a good choice for an honorary degree from the spitefulness and broad brush of her speech, even though some of her work to stop female circumcision is good. That's not "shaming"


    I don't think your definition of "shaming" is as precise as you seem to think it is. On one hand we have someone whose speech prevented her from getting an honorary degree due to public backlash. On the other hand, we have someone whose "speech" prevented him from being an effective CEO due to public backlash. Don't get me wrong, lest I appear guilty of over-simplifying: I'm not saying that there aren't distinctions here, but the distinctions appear to be mostly one of degree (no pun intended), with the two obvious differences being:

    1. Eich's "speech" came in the form of money donated to a loathsome "cause".
    2. Eich "voluntarily" stepped down.

    (And, yes, there's a reason I put voluntarily in scare quotes there, but whatever we want to call it, that's still a distinction that can be drawn.)


    Eich didn't voluntarily step down - he was pressured to step down and took the obvious step. Coerced by the community is more accurate.

    "Loathsome" is actually an opinion. Different people have different opinions on this issue - as can be seen by the position you (& I) dislike actually winning at the polls.

    "we have someone whose "speech" prevented him from being an effective CEO due to public backlash." - prove it - running a web browser company is impossible because a free online dating service launches a protest? 2 developers got angry? Even if 10,000 volunteers quit, does that keep Mozilla from putting out product? in which cases do you support rule-by-writein-campaign? would you support it if the community was writing to fire a gay Headmaster or dating a woman of a different race or as a Muslim protested drone killings on Facebook because he couldn't be effective? or would you admire a school for telling them to fuck off because it's his private life and he can do what he wants as long as he does his job well, and if volunteers want to quit, they can be replaced, cu later?

    Showing balls, consistency and a transparent logical moral compass usually produces good results.


    Eich didn't voluntarily step down - he was pressured to step down and took the obvious step. Coerced by the community is more accurate.

    Hence the reason I put "voluntarily" in scare quotes and announce quite plainly that I was deliberately putting it in scare quotes.

    "Loathsome" is actually an opinion. Different people have different opinions on this issue - as can be seen by the position you (& I) dislike actually winning at the polls.

    Oh really?

    "we have someone whose "speech" prevented him from being an effective CEO due to public backlash." - prove it - running a web browser company is impossible because a free online dating service launches a protest? 2 developers got angry? 

    You acknowledge that he was coerced by the community to step down, but you object to that coercion preventing him from being an effective CEO. It seems you want it both ways: that pressure was having no effect on his ability to do his job, yet at the same time it forced him to resign. I don't see how you can square that circle.

    Showing balls, consistency and a transparent logical moral compass usually produces good results.

    Some would argue that speaking out (AKA "coercion") against people who would work to deny you your rights is showing backbone (a less sexist term, which I thought mattered to you), being consistent, and having a transparent moral compass. The difference between their speech and his, as I see it, is that their speech was many people working to make life difficult for one person because of his actions (in this case donating money to a loathsome cause), and his speech (or donation) was one person working to make life difficult for many because of their sexual orientation. I see no problem with consistency here.


    Taking away the longstanding right of people to hold an opinion makes up for someone opposing the new-found right for 2 men to marry. Got it.


    No one is taking away his right to hold an opinion, but it sounds like you're advocating taking away the rights of people to object to someone's opinion that they should be denied rights that others have…


    The "right" to hold an opinion when it comes burdened with loss of job, public shaming, etc., is not much more right than dealing with bullying on the playground or small town ostracizing.

    I recall when Anita Bryant stepped into the culture wars some 35 years ago - she started off loud but ignorant of the issues, the side she backed won but was seriously focused on discriminating against gays, and in the end the publicity and push-back against her orange juice promotion provided a needed PR victory over rather small-minded bigoted attitudes.

    This latest brouhaha has few of these ingredients - the prevailing view of 5 years ago has already been overturned, the target was anything but loud about it, and the result did more to damage LGBT's image than to help it. 

    What do you do when these tactics are used by conservatives, to fire people who support gay rights, drug legalization, withdrawal from Afghanistan, stem cell research? Oh, it's their prerogative, employers always win, your opinion stops at the factory gate, even if you were quiet about it? Reminds me of the 1950's and Last Exit to Brooklyn, not 2014. We will be hoisted on our own petard.


    Public shaming should not be the first tool in one's arsenal, but I'm unwilling to remove it from the arsenal completely. Just like one wouldn't use sanctions against another nation lightly, but sanctions are preferable to war. There's a time and place for such actions. I'm honestly not sure if Eich was the correct time and place, but I'm not willing to shame the shamers, as I understand their frustration. (And I don't understand the distinction you're making between condemnation and shaming, but I'm sure it's crystal clear to you.) I do think that public shaming is less harmful than trying to change the constitution to take away people's rights to marry.


    "trying to change the constitution to take away people's rights to marry" - well, yes - the state Supreme Court issued a decision, and people then decided to codify what they thought obvious and what was practiced for 150 years.

    Is keeping someone from marrying while recognizing their union worse than publich shaming that costs someone their job? Your call.


    Well, as I said elsewhere, I agree that we don't really want to necessarily play the game of "which is worse", unless we're arguing that one helps eliminate the other, which I suppose is arguable in this case. So, to that end, I'd argue that the better question is, is "forcing" a CEO to resign worse than shaming millions* of people by relegating them to (at best) a second-hand version of marriage? There's nothing wrong with someone choosing to have a civil union, but when you tell them that their union is not valid enough to be called a marriage, how is that not shaming? Furthermore, there are possibly cascading legal ramifications, since I'm not sure what the effect of having a civil union versus is a marriage is for recognition by the federal government or other states.

    *Population of California was estimated to be 38 million in 2012. If we assume that 10% of them are homosexual, that's about 4 million.


    How do you feel about this CEO's firing? It doesn't seem that his deplorable actions affected his job.


    They aren't just "deplorable" actions - they are *criminal* actions.

    Like are we comparing Eich's Prop 8 donation to beating your girlfriend for 30 minutes?

    Do you think I'm such an idiot that I'd defend serious out-of-control domestic violence as just a private issue?


    No, I don't think you'd defend such an action, but until now, it'd never crossed my mind that you were actually defending Eich's actions, just that his actions were unrelated to his performance as CEO.


    he has his opinion, so what?

    i meet people every day with worse. it's called humanity - sucks, but all we've got


    I'm glad I meet different people than you do, then. I don't know anyone who dislikes homosexuals enough to donate money to a cause denying them the right to marry. I'm sure I know people who are worse in other regards, but not people I meet on anything approaching a regular basis.


    Denying gays marriage is worse than killing Afghans with drones?


    I don't meet anyone advocating that on anything close to a regular basis, either.


    Iraq had 90% support.

    I left the country -

    how do you avoid them?


    Live in Charlottesville, for one thing. Also, Iraq is not Afghanistan, George, and being in favor of getting rid of bin Laden (in Afghanistan) is not the same as advocating for drone attacks. Whose putting words in other mouths now?


    People who vote & donate to keep petty drugs criminal are putting people in jail for years, destroying lives and families. I think they should all lose their jobs.

    People who supported the invasion of Iraq after the UN inspections of Jan 2003, who supported the ill-fated surge and all the other civil war enablement, and those who supported the disastrous continued presence in Afghanistan should all lose their jobs.

    People who support waterboarding and stress positions and the kicking to death and the mock burials and the other torture cheering of the last decade should lose their jobs.

    People who sucked $2 trillion out of the government / Fed in 2008 and then turned around doing mortgage and pension fraud should all lose their jobs.

    People who signed off on mass surveillance of billions of US phone calls and other communications & private information and then lied and obstructed Congress and the public should lose their jobs.

    Sadly I'm not going to get my wish.

    From what I see, Eich doesn't even come close to these motherfuckers. All I see him doing was as a private citizen giving a donation to a cause he believes in, whether religiously or out of cultural custom. It sucks, but sometimes democracy and rights take time and do actually evolve. Anyway, like all the bitching about Chick-Fil-A and the horror about how the guy wants his employees to have Sundays off, and whatever else tops the outrage of the month award - have at it. They don't conform to your opinion? Get 'em fired. That'll show 'em.


    Meant to note that no one was killed or tortured or lost their life savings because of Eich.


    The wonderful thing is that, in our system, you can advocate for your position of having them lose their jobs. If enough other people agree, it might just happen. Many people have lost their jobs for having opinions that their employers do not like.


    Uh, liberals used to criticize this as corporate overreach and infringement of personal rights. Now we're supposed to like it when it suits us for a particular issue? How arbitrary of you. 


    Wait, I thought you were just saying that this is what you wanted to do? (Yes, I know you were being snarky, but so was I. It appears this has clouded the issue.)


    Uh, murder & torture is worth losing your job over, forget free speech there.


    Start with your first paragraph, where you're talking about voting. I think that's protected.


    ah yes, that was snark/facetious/devil's advocate stuff, sorry

    grew more serioius after that


    Or maybe that was a different topic.

    No, I like people being relatively consistent & quite the opposite of arbitrary.


    Malik is not wrong to point out a double standard. There surely is one. But freedom of speech is not the issue. Brandeis is not obligated to bestow an honorary degree on anyone. In reversing its decision, the university has not violated Ayaan Hirsi Ali's freedom of speech any more than that of Frazier Glenn Miller's, the white supremacist killer in Kansas, whom Brandeis has also neglected to recognize with an honorary degree.

    PS Freedom of religion, which is likewise enshrined in the first amendment, also applies to government. It is not unconstitutional to disparage someone's religion.


    The thing is, Malik is actually wrong.  Plenty of people stuck up for Islam in the Ali affair.  So many that Brandeis reversed course and didn't give the degree.  Malik's complaint is that then other people had the temerity to criticize Brandeis for listening to the first group of critics.  So it really comes down to this -- people can get mad about whatever they want and Islam, of all things, is not so without champions as Malik imagines.


    Malik's complaint is that then other people had the temerity to criticize Brandeis for listening to the first group of critics.  

    I think you've pretty narrowly pigeon-holed Malik's comments.

    Also, you ignore that Malik's addressing subsequent charges of "censorship", not just being a whiny baby that people weren't in lockstep.

    He notes the hyperbolic rhetoric surrounding this case ("honor killed"?)

    What you don't seem to grok on is that this instance is very similar to when the right's kept from spouting off on Benghazi or Obama's Kenyan birth/birth certificate, and then follow up with ludicrous claims of rights violations and coverup and what not. 

    But worst, is you simply ignore that Malik is asking not for more defense of Islam, but more defense across the board for the right to offend, of defending offensive speech itself. This is certainly the opposite of trying to shut down papers for showing Mohammed with a bomb - it's a plea to defend the same pushing of boundaries whether the target's a Muslim, Jew, Obama, someone else. 


    The right to offend everybody is infinitely reductive.  Brandeis offers Ali an honorary degree.  Some are offended.  Brandeis rescinds offer.  Others are offended.  The right to offend everyone that Malik wants is present and in full effect.  What Malik can't have is what he really wants which is for people just not to react to speech in the first place.  If he got that, of course, speech would have no point.


    I suggest re-reading the OpEd, or maybe you found a different version than me - my copy was from the NY Times.

    In that version, Malik is bemoaning that people (especially press) will speak up for freedom of speech in one case, and in another very similar case take the other side - simply because they like one religion or cause and not the other.

    So if an anti-Semite is effectively censored, they're silent and content, but if an anti-Muslim is censored, they speak up. (ok, "semite" includes Arabs, but we all know...)

    If I used the language that Ali uses for a whole religion, "“a destructive, nihilistic cult of death”" et al on say Christianity, there's no chance Brandeis would even consider offering me an honorary degree (how'd Wade Churchill do with his "Little Eichmanns" remark? oh, he ended up getting fired, ostensibly for academic malpractice).

    But Malik is less addressing official response, and more addressing how the marketplace of ideas waffles on the same practice in different context - picking winners and losers, rather than a level playing field. Here's an article that seems to get it, even though he spends much of the post being suspicious of Malik. Pam Geller is a nut job, and while a few of her observations may be true, most are probably not and her tone is continually vicious and destructive. She shouldn't be considered for an honorary degree at Brandeis either, but she's also welcome to speak in most any public forum - to rebut her idiocy or for no reason at all.

    Ali speaks some important truths, even while being a vicious asshole about her once religion. Yes, I'd like to see female circumcision curtailed, but think women themselves can figure out the need and desireability and extent of headdress. I go back and forth between liking her and despising her, and that's one type of tolerated speech I love - people who really get to our emotions and move us a step further.

    At the same time, Larry Summers lost his position over a fairly innocuous exploratory discussion about the sexes and success in academia. To defend his laying out 3 possibilities was to make you an asshole as well, even though surprise surprise, 10 years later we discover that men and women's brains are wired differently. (which still doesn't prove that this cognitive wiring difference is significant for academic success, and in the end Summers was addressing significant differences in *distribution*, rather than averages)

    Sure, Summers had supporters - these days most viewpoints have their fanclubs and advocates. But it's the liberal "shut him down" response that's the most disturbing - because what Summers said doesn't line up with a politically correct dogma of equality of the sexes, he has to go - "free speech" or considering possibilities for rhetorical purposes can be taken to some other venue, whereas if he'd spoken for gay marriage - quite controversial at the time - or stated that women are *better* academics than men, many of the loudest screamers would have supported his "right" to speculate.

    With the case of Eich, the guy hadn't even publicly stated anything - he'd made a private donation some years ago for a cause that's the majority held view in the US and the world. For me the principle's the same - it was a private matter he had as a citizen, and that secrets come out accidentally doesn't dilute the value of free speech and opinion. I'm less than impressed with the argument that Eich was now someone important, the CEO - of course these attacks are always on someone important - the less important are either cowed or disappear without a ripple. Gandhi treated his kid awfully, slept with young girls in bizarre sexual experiments, and likely left his wife for a male lover  - should he have been pulled from leadership and shut up for these transgressions, so we would have lost an almost God-like figure of our times? If Eich were discovered cruising gay S&M bars for pickups, would we demand his resignation as not fitting behavior for a very public CEO, or support his right to a more-or-less private life? Is there a standard in there somewhere?

    And I think Malik is still pointing to the non-Constitutional idea of free speech. Of course we have the 4th Amendment, but if 90% of Americans accept the idea of government search of all communications, that Amendment is meaningless. [look at the supposed approval power Congress has on going to war - a historical curiosity]. The Constitution is not much stronger than the support the citizenry gives in upholding those ideas, as 100 years of withheld rights in the South showed. While "freedom of speech" is inherently complex (such as inciting violence or supposed dog whistles that may or may not), the idea that we can calmly listen to William Buckley debate Noam Chomsky and disagree with one or both without having one of them dragged from the venue is a pretty valuable thing. We see the problem when Sunday talk shows fill the panels with like-minded people covering the gamut of ideas from A to B - where to have been against the Iraq War makes you non-serious and ineligible to participate, even though by any standard the Iraq War was a mess - is this the picking and choosing we want from our media, the guys who've been turning faxed Pentagon position papers into "reporting" and have co-opted the words "torture" and "terrorism" to be only what Muslims do, not identical atrocities by any other group?

    If that's the "free speech" we're backing, we've dumbed down the definition quite a bit.


    Problem is, Malik isn't recognizing the other important element of free speech which is that I have the right to say, "Isn't that guy a scum bag?"  I certainly don't have to be consistent about that, either.  Speech is, first and foremost, an expression of taste.


    Of  course Malik is recognizing that. She's also noting if you say 1 guy's a scumbag but not another when they're using equivalent language or framing or points of view, there's no "expression of taste" there, simply an arbitrary non-rigorous lack of standards or intellectual honesty, my chose pack vs. your chosen pack kind of thinking.


    Except they're just things that she thinks are equivalent.  None of her examples hold up.


    Doesn't matter - do YOU understand the concept, or do you have to find a difference in every example that supports defending free speech for *your* arbitrary pet position, and lets free speech fall to the wayside for ones you don't like? The ACLU runs around defending the rights of a lot of jerks and a lot of great people - isn't that a sound principle we should strive for? If you want to find a can't-be-bothered loophole for any cause you don't support, it kinda defeats the whole idea.


    The ACLU focuses almost entirely on stopping government from infringing on people's rights.  On that, we're simpatico.  But the ACLU isn't afraid to call a scumbag a scumbag.  On that, we're also simpatico.


    Again, no one said not to call someone a scumbag - the point was if you're going to call 1 ethnic group scumbags, can you give fair time and call another ethnic group scumbags if they're acting like scumbags?


    And, hang on... let's look at Malik's equivalencies... By her standard, I'm supposed to treat Ali the same way I treat anti-semites, racists and homophobes.  But Ali is a human rights activist.  She's criticizing he aspects of Islam that inform actions like honor killings and blatant sexism.  There's nothing equivalent about racists and homophobes.


    She's calling a whole religion a "cult of death" based on the actions of some. Yes, some of her criticisms are valid. Others are shrill and uncalled for. Yes, partly equivalent to racists and homophobes, certainly with the expansive definitions that people like to toss these words around.


    What's the difference between an "expression of taste" and an "arbitrary non-rigorous lack of standards or intellectual honesty"? Those seem like synonymous phrases to me, albeit one with different nuances of approval/disapproval.


    I assume an "expression of taste" has some logic or aesthetic behind it, versus "personal taste" which is just what I happen to like for no particular reason (and might even be horribly kitschy but I like it anyway for perverse reasons - say Nancy Sinatra).

    That's of course for the art world - in politics things tend to be easier to define.


    And I think Malik is still pointing to the non-Constitutional idea of free speech.

    What is the "non-constitutional idea of free speech"?

    AFAIK, freedom of speech is a constitutional right and isn't defined or codified or protected anywhere else.


    Oh come on, you needed the Constitution to clue you in on what "free speech" might mean? What did the Founding Fathers do before they wrote it, pull it out of their ass or just use some "common sense" (Tom Paine ref) and prevailing philosophical thought?

    Do you really think our system only works by the Constitution forcing things on us, rather than by common assent and support of these ideals in daily practice? It's not perfect, but think of a weight training program where you skip out on practice - the Constitution's only a guide.


    The "common sense" definition they pulled out of their ass or from elsewhere is not yours, as you define it here, however.

    It specifically protects people from the government. That's what it does. That's what it is. It doesn't protect one group of people from another group of people when they're both practising freedom of speech.

    Your definition does something different, broader, than what the Constitution does. In this comment, you want to conflate the two, as if your view is what the Founders were really talking about; they just didn't write it down that way. Maybe they were channeling an Ur view of freedom of speech. But you also admit you're talking about a non-constitutional right to free speech, so you can't really have it both ways.

    The Constitution doesn't only work by forcing things on people; people agree to what the Constitution says. They don't necessarily agree about other definitions of what freedom of speech is, however, including yours. And actually, people disagree about what the Constitution says as well and probably don't agree with all of it, even though they basically accept it as the law of the land.

    Nevertheless, the problem for Malik, and I guess you, is that your definition of free speech worked here. The non-constitutional kind. To wit:

    Ali was invited (free speech). Others objected (still more free speech). Others objected to the objection (more free speech). Brandeis withdrew (more free speech). Ali published what she would've said (yet again free speech, including freedom of the press). Malik wrote her opinion in the paper of record (gobs of free speech and more than most people will ever experience in the life times).

    As MM notes above, you and Malik just don't like it when people do something as a result of what they're free speeching about. Especially when people are taking strong exception to what you're saying. You regard it as stifling free speech. But the people who are objecting are also exercising their right to free speech.

    Bruce v LULU is a good example. LULU says things Bruce doesn't like. Bruce says what he doesn't like about what LULU says and, in the process, probably says things LULU doesn't like.

    Somehow, you (seemed to) view Bruce's as objections to LULU as stifling LULU's freedom of speech. The irony, I'd have to say, is that Bruce has been given a "time out" by the moderators in the past, and I'm not sure LULU ever has. But either way, I don't see how LULU's speech has been stifled. For one thing, he posts here whenever he wishes.


    So the Founding Fathers were writing a Constitution, and didn't require all people individually to live up to the standards they placed on the government - individual freedom & rights of man, vs. government limits & responsibility - is that surprising or contradictory to you? Do I really even have to explain?

    "They don't necessarily agree about other definitions of what freedom of speech is, however, including yours." Well, gee - if 90% think "freedom of speech" is "the right to parrot what the government says", we're fucked, whatever a sane person might interpret the constitution to say. So as I note, if the population can't get mostly behind a reasonable compromise of what the words of the Constitution could mean, then the Constitution's a failure, and we move on to something far from what was intended. But that doesn't mean a rational concept of "Freedom of Speech" can't exist outside what Tom Jefferson and Alex Hamilton happened to codify for a fledgling country.

    "As MM notes above, you and Malik just don't like it when people do something as a result of what they're free speeching about."  I've only said this about a dozen times, so maybe one of you can take notes this time - Malik is not complaining about the free speeching - she's complaining that that free speeching is limited to bitching about her religion, and that free speeching seems to stop when it's about say letting an "anti-semite" or "racist" or "homophobe" or some other assigned pejorative opinion speak up - then there are a host of exceptions about why it's okay to not allow free speech in those cases.  So *more free speech* and *fewer exceptions for not allowing free speech* - is that clearer on the 13th attempt?

    "Somehow, you (seemed to) view Bruce's as objections to LULU as stifling LULU's freedom of speech. " - yes, I think there are silly games played to imply that almost any action or statement is anti-semitic as a way to either get the person to go away/shut up or void the content before it ever gets read/heard, and an amazing amount of time trying to parse people's intent rather than actually reading what they wrote. Whether that's what the moderation was about, really don't know. I don't recall Lulu insulting Bruce or inferring some sinister motive, so I guess Lulu's never gotten a time out - can't be sure.

    However, surely you understand the difference between trying to stifle speech and actually stifling and actually being punished for it? Many women dislike internet chats because they get shouted down and it's sometimes a caustic environment that supports high-testosterone reactions - by default the internet environment stifles to some extent women's speech even before they read their first note - it tends to be weighted heavily as a boy's club first - perhaps changing a bit the last years, perhaps not. So just because someone survives an attempt to stifle speech - acknowledge or subconscious - doesn't mean that the stifling environment doesn't exist.

    And if someone loses their job over speaking about something or making a political contribution, then yes, that's stifling speech. You can defend it as somehow required, but it's not a very liberal opinion, and that's by definition.

     

     


    So the Founding Fathers were writing a Constitution, and didn't require all people individually to live up to the standards they placed on the government - individual freedom & rights of man, vs. government limits & responsibility - is that surprising or contradictory to you? Do I really even have to explain?

    PS: It's not surprising to me, however, you continue to suggest that they IN FACT meant something different and much broader than what they've been taken to mean through lots of intense argumentation. Hardly parroting anyone.

    "They don't necessarily agree about other definitions of what freedom of speech is, however, including yours." Well, gee - if 90% think "freedom of speech" is "the right to parrot what the government says", we're fucked, whatever a sane person might interpret the constitution to say. So as I note, if the population can't get mostly behind a reasonable compromise of what the words of the Constitution could mean, then the Constitution's a failure, and we move on to something far from what was intended. But that doesn't mean a rational concept of "Freedom of Speech" can't exist outside what Tom Jefferson and Alex Hamilton happened to codify for a fledgling country.

    PS: And that "reasonable compromise" would be yours, it seems. It seems to me that the population HAS gotten behind a reasonable understanding of freedom of speech. What's unreasonable about it? It actually gives us the broadest opportunity to define for ourselves the speech we'll tolerate, the speech we'll support, the speech we'll go listen to, the speech we'll pay for.

    "As MM notes above, you and Malik just don't like it when people do something as a result of what they're free speeching about."  I've only said this about a dozen times, so maybe one of you can take notes this time - Malik is not complaining about the free speeching - she's complaining that that free speeching is limited to bitching about her religion, and that free speeching seems to stop when it's about say letting an "anti-semite" or "racist" or "homophobe" or some other assigned pejorative opinion speak up - then there are a host of exceptions about why it's okay to not allow free speech in those cases.  So *more free speech* and *fewer exceptions for not allowing free speech* - is that clearer on the 13th attempt?

    PS: You need to map out the back and forth. There were plenty of people who were for and plenty who were against having Ali speak. Whether there were more for or more against in the Ali case than there would be in the case of an anti-Semite, or a racist, or a homophobe is immaterial. Moreover, you don't need to have an equal number of people on both sides of the argument in every case to assert the principle of freedom of speech (even your definition of it). Why would you?

    However, surely you understand the difference between trying to stifle speech and actually stifling and actually being punished for it? Many women dislike internet chats because they get shouted down and it's sometimes a caustic environment that supports high-testosterone reactions - by default the internet environment stifles to some extent women's speech even before they read their first note - it tends to be weighted heavily as a boy's club first - perhaps changing a bit the last years, perhaps not. So just because someone survives an attempt to stifle speech - acknowledge or subconscious - doesn't mean that the stifling environment doesn't exist.

    PS: Can't follow how this relates to the conversation.

    And if someone loses their job over speaking about something or making a political contribution, then yes, that's stifling speech. You can defend it as somehow required, but it's not a very liberal opinion, and that's by definition.

    PS: Only if you have a simplistic, un-nuanced view of what liberalism is. I can think of plenty of things a person could say that would warrant his losing his job. That's my judgment, but sometimes, depending on the position I'm in and the responsibility I have, I'm forced (indeed, paid to) make a judgment and follow through on it. It would be a dereliction of my duty in my position not to. I can do that as a liberal; otherwise, true liberals need to be barred from any positions of responsibility.


    "you continue to suggest that they IN FACT meant something different and much broader" - no, I suggest they were well-read and knew freedom of speech meant more than what they were codifying

    "And that "reasonable compromise" would be yours, it seems" - if only (snark). no, that reasonable compromise is "reasonable" among adults, or say liberal democrats who want to encourage real debate - i.e. not Tea Party members shutting down a town hall by screaming their opinion and acting outraged. If that's what you as a "liberal" want to emulate, you're Constitutionally enabled to do that.

    "You need to map out the back and forth." - thanks, I'll leave that for my religious followers who'll one day dredge up my every brilliant comment from Google archives.

    "There were plenty of people who were for and plenty who were against having Ali speak. " - I've addressed this numerous times - I could light a fart on facebook and get a million likes. That has nothing to do with the frequent personal choice of showing "tolerance" towards those speaking truth-to-power (i.e. caustically) about Islam and *silence* about shutting down those who have a contrary non-PC opinion about race, gender preference, global warming, religion, etc. I and Malik are addressing personal consistency, not cliques and packs - though the aggregate of inconsistent personal behavior can lead to lynch mobs or at least destructive shaming & silence.


    "you continue to suggest that they IN FACT meant something different and much broader" - no, I suggest they were well-read and knew freedom of speech meant more than what they were codifying

    PS: And your reason for believing this is...what?

    "And that "reasonable compromise" would be yours, it seems" - if only (snark). no, that reasonable compromise is "reasonable" among adults, or say liberal democrats who want to encourage real debate - i.e. not Tea Party members shutting down a town hall by screaming their opinion and acting outraged. If that's what you as a "liberal" want to emulate, you're Constitutionally enabled to do that.

    PS: "Reasonable among adults, or say liberal democrats who want to encourage real debate"... there are so many undefined terms and/or terms open to extreme debate here, it's almost a meaningless statement in the context of what is actually happening in the world or has ever happened. Or, to put it another way, to the degree this has any meaning, reasonable adults and liberal democrats are already doing this.

    For one thing, what is "real debate"? Does "real debate" include debating the merits of the Protocols? The merits of intelligent design? Or does this entail slogging back over territory that's been ploughed and re-ploughed? True believers will give you a million reasons why the earth is flat when it isn't. Lysenko anyone?

    "You need to map out the back and forth." - thanks, I'll leave that for my religious followers who'll one day dredge up my every brilliant comment from Google archives.

    PS: I was talking about the back and forth between Brandeis, the various groups of objectors, Malik.

    "There were plenty of people who were for and plenty who were against having Ali speak. " - I've addressed this numerous times - I could light a fart on facebook and get a million likes. That has nothing to do with the frequent personal choice of showing "tolerance" towards those speaking truth-to-power (i.e. caustically) about Islam and *silence* about shutting down those who have a contrary non-PC opinion about race, gender preference, global warming, religion, etc.

    PS: You haven't addressed this. A million likes, or the equivalent, has nothing to do with this. We were talking--I thought--about people being "shut down." Prevented from speaking. Shamed into being silent. This happened to NO ONE here. Everyone spoke, at length and loudly. Some people got what they wanted and others didn't, but when desires conflict, someone is always going to lose out. And this would've happened whether Ali had spoken and gotten her award, spoken only, never spoke, or never spoke and wrote down what she would've said.

    I and Malik are addressing personal consistency, not cliques and packs - though the aggregate of inconsistent personal behavior can lead to lynch mobs or at least destructive shaming & silence.

    PS: No; you're only talking about "group behavior." No one has any ability to divine the personal consistency or inconsistency of individuals making up a group. Beyond this, consistency is an overrated virtue, IMO. It often forces people to overlook important differences in the name of being "true" to one's principles. But it impoverishes human principles to treat them as algorithms that must be obeyed come what may the way a computer would obey its instructions.

    IOW, being in favor of freedom of speech doesn't require someone to demand that anyone and everyone who, say, wants to speak at a public forum be allowed to speak. That's just silly and often destructive. Being in favor of having a broad diversity of opinion represented on, say, a panel doesn't force the moderator to sit back and let would-be speakers have their way. Practical considerations prevent this, but there are substantive reasons why flat earthers aren't allowed to speak at cosmology conferences.

    It's fine to disagree with specific choices and decisions, but disagreement doesn't mean the choosers have violated the overarching principle of freedom of speech, even loosely defined.

    Malik gives herself away when she speaks of "absolutist" free speechers. "Absolutist" is perjorative, and I doubt very much that she puts herself into that category. (If she were, she might have said, "Okay, letting this Islamophobe speak is all to the good. Now let's improve the situation by allowing homophobes and anti-Semites and Christ haters speak." But she doesn't. She's just pissed that those who wanted Ali to speak didn't also clamor for homophobes and anti-Semites to speak.) She doesn't care whether homophobes or anti-Semites get to speak or are prevented from speaking on the merits of what they might say. She's mostly just bugged that her Islamic ox is getting gored.

    And the fact is that homophobes and anti-Semites get to speak a lot in this society. There are plenty of people who support them, and plenty of people who don't. Loudly and often. She may not notice it, because perhaps she's not gay and probably isn't Jewish. It doesn't stand out for her. It doesn't matter to her.

    It's hard to imagine Brandeis inviting a committed homophobe to speak, but let's say they did. I could easily imagine a bunch of students and alumni protesting this move. And if Brandeis canceled the date, I could also imagine plenty of people objecting to the decision. It's the same.

     


    "And your reason for believing this is...what?" a hunch, a few history & philosophy books, reason, spiritual premonitions and something Bart Simpson said the other day.

    "We were talking--I thought--about people being "shut down." Prevented from speaking. " - No, Malik and I were talking about people speaking out, and how they choose to defend the right to speak out on cases where someone's savaging Islam, but don't worry about someone's right to speak opinion on homosexuality, global warming, racism, etc if those opinions are different from theirs. The ACLU and the EFF on the other hand take a more progressive stand towards speech and prefer everyone to be able to offer their opinion without fear of reprisals (unless speech is actually hate speech, inciting violence, not yelling theater in a crowded fire, & all the usual caveats)

    "She's mostly just bugged that her Islamic ox is getting gored." - that's the most pejorative - you just assume she's only concerned about Islam, not the state of liberal democracy in practice, no matter how much she states this. How about me? I'm not Muslim - how do you want to dismiss my concern? Or you'll just spin me with so many irrelevancies until I get tired?

    "homophobes and anti-Semites get to speak a lot in this society" - except that maybe the person who's not speaking isn't actually a homophobe or anti-Semite in the classical Tea Party tradition, but got lumped into that bunch because no one bothers to listen except to freak out "all Muslims are terrorists!" paranoia. As many time as I've repeated the same thing to continued misinterpretation, I'm simply not surprised.

    "I could also imagine plenty of people objecting to the decision. It's the same" - no, you simply are unable to get it. If Glenn Greenwald gets upset about gays getting searched illegally for some materials going through customs, I expect him to get upset about an anti-Semite getting searched illegally, or an environmentalist, or a Hispanic activist or whoever. And Greenwald seldom disappoints. This isn't about Ali or someone else being able to find a clique to back them - it's asking pundits and bloggers to be consistent in how they support rights. Andrew Sullivan much as I disagree with him often catches this kind of parity - others like Josh Marshall are pretty poor at it and play our gang vs. others.

    Okay, finished - have the last word if you want.


    Okay, I'll take it...

    "We were talking--I thought--about people being "shut down." Prevented from speaking. " - No, Malik and I were talking about people speaking out, and how they choose to defend the right to speak out on cases where someone's savaging Islam, but don't worry about someone's right to speak opinion on homosexuality, global warming, racism, etc if those opinions are different from theirs. The ACLU and the EFF on the other hand take a more progressive stand towards speech and prefer everyone to be able to offer their opinion without fear of reprisals (unless speech is actually hate speech, inciting violence, not yelling theater in a crowded fire, & all the usual caveats).

    PS: My understanding is they DO defend hate speech, for example their defense of the KKK marching through Skokie. But equally, their defense occurs in the public realm and when actual legal rights are involved, not the much softer and fuzzier "everyone being able to offer their opinion." I don't know that they go to bat for someone when no legal right is involved. How would they sue over that?

    "She's mostly just bugged that her Islamic ox is getting gored." - that's the most pejorative - you just assume she's only concerned about Islam, not the state of liberal democracy in practice, no matter how much she states this. How about me? I'm not Muslim - how do you want to dismiss my concern? Or you'll just spin me with so many irrelevancies until I get tired?

    PS: You're conflating your view with hers. I think they're different, and I'm mostly speaking about hers. You're assuming they're the same, and running with the ball from there. To be honest, and I know you think you've stated this a zillion times, it's hard to know what your concern is with respect to the case under consideration: Ali. Malik TRIES to broaden the discussion to other issues, i.e., anti-Semites and homophobes, unsuccessfully IMO, because the analogies don't hold.

    "homophobes and anti-Semites get to speak a lot in this society" - except that maybe the person who's not speaking isn't actually a homophobe or anti-Semite in the classical Tea Party tradition, but got lumped into that bunch because no one bothers to listen except to freak out "all Muslims are terrorists!" paranoia. As many time as I've repeated the same thing to continued misinterpretation, I'm simply not surprised.

    PS: Yes, maybe. Maybe there's a bass under my boat and I just didn't put my lure in the right place. This is not an argument, PP. People say things or keep their mouths shut for all kinds of reasons. Yes, it's good to listen as well as we can, and we often fail. Or succeed partially. What's the point here? If both sides are speaking out--as they were here--and their views are getting acted upon--as they were here-- then it's reasonably reasonable, IMO, to say that "all sides" are being heard. As well as we could ever imagine them being heard? Maybe; maybe not.

    "I could also imagine plenty of people objecting to the decision. It's the same" - no, you simply are unable to get it. If Glenn Greenwald gets upset about gays getting searched illegally for some materials going through customs, I expect him to get upset about an anti-Semite getting searched illegally, or an environmentalist, or a Hispanic activist or whoever. And Greenwald seldom disappoints.

    PS: You see, you shift the terms of the debate here. Now you're talking about how people are treated and treated in a legal sense to boot. This is very different from whether all sides feel free to speak and are being heard and listened to. Being searched illegally is a specific action that can be examined. Evidence can be brought forth and discussed. But up above, you're positing some unknown "someone" who's been mistakenly lumped together verbally--by some unknown someone else--into a group to which they don't belong. At least according to them, or according to someone. Somewhere, I'm sure, there's a semi-circle earther who's been mistakenly catalogued as a flat earther, when he isn't. Are we supposed to ferret these people out with exploratory "surgery"?

    This isn't about Ali or someone else being able to find a clique to back them - it's asking pundits and bloggers to be consistent in how they support rights. Andrew Sullivan much as I disagree with him often catches this kind of parity - others like Josh Marshall are pretty poor at it and play our gang vs. others.

    PS: You see, you're distorting things when you talk about "cliques" and "millions of likes." The picture you paint is of mindless, brainwashed hordes who walk in lockstep behind their leader. This maneuver allows you to marginalize them as unthinking and unworthy of consideration. But in fact, many of them have listened to the person; absorbed the arguments; thought about the evidence; had their minds changed. To be sure, they could be wrong about all of this--or, they could be right. Hard to say, but we can say at least that their fearless leader isn't being shut down, shamed into silence, marginalized in such a way that the important things they might have to say aren't being heard by society or at least by anyone who wishes to listen to what they have to say.

    Second, you muddy the water every time you talk about "rights." We've established that Ali had no "right" to speak at Brandeis. You may think that she should be allowed to speak there, but that doesn't mean she has the right to speak there. So it's a little hard to see how pundits and bloggers can be consistent about a non-existent right, unless they're willing to say that anyone should be allowed to speak anywhere at any time about anything, which is what this is boiling down to. You make room for people being shunned when they're spewing hate or inciting violence, but that is still a judgment that has to be made by someone, and there are people who will disagree and feel that the hater is being wrongly labeled (see your objection above) and wrongly shut down.

    It's entirely consistent for someone to support Ali's appearing at Brandeis and NOT to support a homophobe from speaking at Brandeis based on a considered judgment about the content of what he has to say. And when he makes this judgment, he isn't automatically part of some mindless clique pressing the "like" button. A person doesn't have to be a naif or agnostic about what a speaker has to say in order to support freedom of speech, including your definition, consistently. People are allowed to make judgments about the value of what someone has to say--and other people are allowed to make judgments about those judgments. As long as that process is taking place, then we have freedom of speech.

    Same goes for science. We will always, always have majority views about science that end up being proven wrong many years later. This won't change if we banish the idea of "prevailing wisdom." The prevailing view on any given topic isn't the result of people just deciding that they're going to accept mindlessly the majority view...or mindlessly establish a majority view...even when they overlook something or stubbornly refuse to see something that others can see. And every new idea inevitably becomes a kind of orthodoxy eventually. This is just the process.

     

     


    Peter,

    I respect you greatly, but I would suggest that there has to be any number of ways for you to assert what you believe to be free speech beyond referencing colloquies between Lulu and me.  What happens is you cause Peracles to respond -- about how he thinks I just scream antisemitism all the time -- and I really don't feel like getting involved, so that sits there and festers.

    Please, leave me out of a discussion I am not involved with as a matter of courtesy.

    FWIW, I find the whole thing to be curious, i.e. free speech is a concept that has many meanings, but the First Amendment is applicable to state action.  Tufts is not a state actor, and the conversation should proceed from there.  

     


    Sorry about that Bruce. It seemed like a good example only. I didn't mean to draw you (or LULU) into the conversation or resuscitate it.


    No biggie, I understand, best to you.


    Did Brandeis first invite Frazier Glenn Miller, and then publicly renege on their promise? If not, the 2 are not comparable. In a functioning society, we have to rely on each others words, and we make plans in reliance  of them. Promises create moral obligations to the promisee, and our society therefore values people who are true to their word. If I break a contract with you after promising you something, then I have you wronged, deprive you of something that now you were indeed entitled to expect.  If I do this because of your speech, then I inflict an unjustified harm on you because of your speech - and that makes it a free speech issue.


    If Brandeis broke a contract, that's a legal issue. If Brandeis broke a promise, that's a moral issue. Neither is a freedom of speech issue. America's free speech guarantee protects citizens from government penalty. It does not protect us from broken promises or rescinded honorary degrees.

    Indeed, Brandeis's initial decision to award an honorary degree was largely based on Ali's writing in the first place, so it makes no sense to suggest that the university violated her free speech rights by taking her previous expressions into account.


    Think of it as "buyer's remorse". And still I see a huge difference between inviting her to speak and honoring the content of what she says. The former is somewhat tied to "free speech" and opening ourselves up for different views. The latter is about taste and evaluation.

    I'd be interested in hearing what makes Frazier Glenn Miller tick, how he justifies himself, without applauding him for it. The Nürnberg trials were informative - secretly dumping OBL in the Indian Ocean just made him a mystery.


    It's not a First Amendment issue, and I don't think anybody claimed it was. But I don't think the 1. Amendment exhausts the meaning of "free speech"either. The concept was around long before the US was founded, you know. There are lots of ways private actors can prevent free speech and the market place of ideas that it is supposed to foster, e.g. through monopolies, that fall outside the intentionally narrow scope of the 1. I also find your juxtaposition of "moral issue" and "free speech issue" puzzling. Allowing people to speak freely is for me (also) a moral issue. 

    My point was your invalid comparison between "not giving someone an honorary  degree"because you find their views abhorrent - not a free speech issue even in the wider sense, because they are not deprived of something that is due to them - and, as in this case, not giving someone an honorary degree after you promised to - which is a free speech issue (in the wider, non-legalistic 1.amendment sense) because you deprive someone of something they are due (here, as a result of your promise) , because of their speech.  

     


    This may be parsing too hard, but in re-reading your 2nd paragraph - 

    - if after being offered an honorary degree, Ali said "Brandeis sucks", "gays should be killed" or "I vote Republican" or "I've decided to become Catholic" or "I'm against stem-cell research", and her honorary degree was thus retracted, then her popular right - not legal right - to free speech is impinged on by the reaction.

    - if we look at these 5 cases, we see a distinction between a) pissing on your host's doorstep, b) saying something hateful and provocative, c) a personal decision that carries some practical baggage for say liberal democrats, abortion defenders, et al, d) a personal religious decision that can carry some practical baggage (such as for abortion defenders, universal healthcare supporters, etc.), and e) a policy issue that possibly has life-or-death symbolism for those with incurable diseases but may not be on the radar for others.

    In the first 2 cases, well, stupidity does have its just rewards - I'd imagine being disinvited to speak might be one result, though I might laugh about the absurdity as well. In the other 3 cases, I might speak out about the reasoning and ramifications depending on how she expresses it, but mostly I treat it as a personal choice, and I wouldn't suggest any repercussions at all.

    - since Ali doesn't seem to have said anything between the invite and now - it was only others speaking up - you might say her popular freedom of speech isn't being impinged, only others being allowed to speak up.

    But withdrawing a benefit based on what she's already said is certainly repressing her freedom of speech, even if it only happened because others complained - peer pressure. Several issues arise - 1 is that the award was in recognition of the value of her speech, but certainly someone should have at least acknowledged before the obvious insulting side of her personality to say "we realize we can't approve of all things she does, but this degree is to reward her courage and some specific social change that needed bringing up" - to me that would have limited the playing field to what's appropriate for a school. 2 is that the honorary degree and the invitation to speak are different levels of acknowledgment. 3 is that while I admit people will bring problems upon themselves, but I also realize many geniuses are strange or abrasive or otherwise outcasts & troublemakers - to limit recognition except for well-balanced human beings and dis-employ those with hateful opinions would make our awards ceremonies and offices rather empty. Freedom of speech and tolerance should be extended as much as possible to those who piss us off or it simply has little meaning. 4 is that the people who complain do have free speech and rights to be heard as well, and while the school should obviously have considered the issue even without people speaking up. As a consolation, since the degree already had been offered and withdrawing it say for belatedly realizing the obvious is a bit lame - might be to give the complainants a platform to address the less attractive side of Ali's approach. This way, no one gets fired, no one gets denied, but everyone gets to make their points.


    Historically, the concept of free speech has always been understood as a political freedom--the right to express an opinion without risk of penalty by the state. It is not and never has been the right to express an opinion without risk of social repercussion. To do so would invite contradiction, for though it is your right as a citizen to disparage gays and lesbians, for example, it is my right as a citizen to call you homophobic or even, as a moderator of this here blog, to delete your comment. I cannot prosecute you, but I am not obliged to publish you let alone honor you.

    Now one thing people often confuse is freedom of speech and diversity of opinion. Diversity of opinion is a good thing. If dagblog.com only permitted comments that supported a particular ideology, it would be a poorer blog. Similarly, if Brandeis only honored those who subscribed  to a certain orthodoxy, it would be a poorer institution. But in neither case would those who had their comments deleted or honors rescinded be deprived of their freedom.


    Of course they're deprived of some freedom - it's just that that freedom isn't a Constitutional right. But they've lost the allowance to post at Dagblog, or have to temper their words to be accepted or in some other respect have lost some freedom.

    And the more you deny those kind of postings, the less diversity of opinion you have - whether that's a good thing or bad thing, you probably have to decide yourself - not all diversity is desirable, but some kinds are.


    Such a definition of freedom is so broad that it's meaningless. Alas, I wish I had the "freedom" to publish my opinions in various magazines and online news sites.


    I didn't think this was so tough.

    Obviously the greatest freedom is for me to do whatever I want - kill who I don't like, take free food, not work, live in whoever's house, scream and sing over everyone, let my dog shit on the neighbors, read Dagblog, put myself on the cover of the Rolling Stone.

    So that freedom is limited legally and culturally (religion, social norms, stares and tut-tuts, an occasional uprising from the village people to burn down the castle, editorial control by Jan Wenner). My stealing or getting the neighbor's daughter pregnant is limited not just by the law but also by knowing that my neighbor might very well shoot me whether legal or not.

    The Constitution didn't try to define the personal freedoms - you'll note no mention of "thou shalt not kill" - it defined freedoms in terms of the federal government, and then noted prerogatives of the state and individuals.

    So there are plenty of ways our society could demand Victorian self-restraint or pagan ebullient self-expression that all fits the requirements of the Constitution. For those primitive Southern societies who still find Leviticus relevant, there's plenty of grist for their mill. But even a eXtasy techno party has codified and understood rules along with bouncers.

    Even the free-wheeling internet has its rules and social norms - don't type all caps unless you mean it, no top-posting, Godwin's Law, et al. These norms restrict freedom a bit to prevent as I mentioned the "Tragedy of the Commons" where a free-for-all on a free unregulated resource quickly destroys it, or to simply make it more comfortable.

    So back to the point of Malik's op-ed: if we as a society whether blogosphere, media or more general turn our allowance of freedom of speech into a capricious or malicious one that punishes one group(s) over others, we can effectively destroy Constitutional speech in practice - especially with boycotts and coordinated campaigns that cause people to lose their jobs or businessess or just acting like Heathers - we can turn opinion into parroting only what will be accepted by the kool clique this month, and effectively turn it into a vindictive echo chamber. The Constitution guarantees our right to be a mob of assholes with just a few limitations - thus the difference between legal freedom of speech and popular.


    Whoah, that sounds scary. OK, let's boycott Brandeis! Also Mozilla! They must be stopped from effectively destroying Constitutional speech in practice.


    Wow, all of that writing and you still miss the point by 180 degrees.

    This wasn't about Brandeis or Mozilla - it was about people in the blogosphere including regular joes/josephines & "liberal" pundits & activitists using their bit of peer pressure and shaming in a consistent manner - not telling them "don't use it"- pleading with them "try to be consistent".

    Anyway, forget it. Seems people want to drive this discussion into a previously decided direction, and there I'll let it sit.


    No, I got that part loud and clear, as I repeatedly acknowledged. But once again, that point concerns diversity of opinion, not freedom of speech. My final comment was meant merely to illustrate the inherent contradiction in defending the "freedom" to speak without social pressure by criticizing people for their speech.

    PS Has it ever occurred to you that the fact that people disagree with you might not be because they're close-minded? That you might just be wrong?


    Well, if you gave me any indication that you understood what I was talking about, I might then be able to consider whether I was wrong. I don't see any contradiction in leaving freedom of speech as verbal dueling, rather than following it up with revoking privileges, firing/causing someone to resign, boycotting their product or banning them from entering the country.

    Even now, I don't think of it as a "diversity of opinion" issue - I'm rather bored with the so-called benefits of diversity. I just think if people can't speak, you'll never hear the sanest logic, only the well-connected glib kool kidz will speak, while frequently some of the biggest brainfarts turn into some of the greatest ideas (e.g. brainstorming & other exercises like role reversal - all real standard team building, leadership and management techniques - actually I might consider I was wrong if I was saying anything original or out-of-the-ordinary, but instead this seems so banal - "try to be ethically consistent" - that I can't believe people are even arguing about it.

    Am I wrong that Muslims haven't been the most violent people of the last 2 decades, that the death toll in the Congo for example far outstrips Muslim violence, that the military actions of the so-called Judeo-Christian USA have produced many more casualties than Muslim IEDs or suicide bombings?

    Really, pick a specific point, show me some stats or clear logic and I'm willing to believe anything I've said is mistaken. I think OceanKat had a pretty definitive rebuttal (successful "smackdown" if you will) for much of what I'd considered on vaccinations. Would everyone debate with his usual quality, even if we've had significant disagreements elsewhere.


    Why do you keep repeating your charges of double-standard with regard to Muslims when I have repeatedly acknowledged it? It's funny, I keep agreeing with you on this point, yet you keep accusing me not getting it. So who's the one who's not listening here?

    On our actual disagreement, I'm not sure what I think about the Mozilla board's decision in which Eich lost his job, but in all the other instances--the honorary degree, the boycotts, letters, tweets, and blog posts about Mozilla and Brandeis, all the things that you have depicted as a coercive mob--these are all speech expressions. American people are free to criticize whomever they wish and buy whatever products they like. Brandeis is free to confer honors on whomever it likes. People are free to be inconsistent, dogmatic assholes. You are likewise a free to criticize them, refuse to honor them, refuse to publish what they say. The only thing you cannot do is stop them from saying it. That is freedom of speech.


    Again, this wasn't about Brandeis or Mozilla - it was individuals - "liberals" - who have no problem being inconsistent about free speech.

    Again, you said "these arguments have little to do with freedom of speech....Only when the government starts arresting people because of their opinions and expressions does freedom of speech come into play." - you and I disagree very much on this - I think freedom of speech has only a small part to do with government, and much more to do with how individuals and communities support this ideal.

    People are free to shout down speakers at a town hall or a college. That right of "free speech" is guaranteed to some extent by the Constitution. But it's antithetical to a liberal democratic idea of free speech. 

    If you want to discuss Mozilla - I also agree somewhat with the idea that money can be fungible for speech, that my money for a candidate or referendum position or political party can be the most effective way for me to communicate rather than thinking I & 310 million individual voices will actually speak & be heard. And if that normal act of specifying my preference through contributions is punished (and I don't mean Koch Brothers' massive issue buying), then that can be as bad as denying people's vote through harassment, pruning the voter rolls, limiting voting time & access, et al. In a limited way, a contribution is akin to a vote (and God/Buddha/Baal knows my vote is wasted in the South, so money's the only sensible political act for me). If I have to reveal my contributions and can then lose my job for it, then it's worse than having my vote revealed - somehow donation support is treated as a sin, perhaps a vote can be forgiven (unless you're Hillary)


    ...the inherent contradiction in defending the "freedom" to speak without social pressure by criticizing people for their speech.

    This is a big piece of the problem. The desire to have one's say without risking the possibility that someone else will say something vehemently against what you say.

    PP seems to want a world in which people get to say whatever they want without fear of any blow back unless, perhaps, somehow--and it's not clear how--what they say is "determined" to be hate speech or involve incitement to violence. Then the blow back is cool.


    "Blowback" = counter-speech? fine

    "Blowback" = sanctions & punishment? not so cool


    This is a point I want to make in a separate post on this blog.

    The point of a lot of speech is to motivate action, not just to spout off, or discuss.

    To persuade with a view to changing minds with a view to changing how people act.


    http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702304512504579493410287663906

    Assuming this is what she would've said, it seems pretty mild to me.


    Yes, assuming she didn't lie claiming rape as she did with her refugee application, or go shrill on Islam, calling Mohammed a pedophile as she did elsewhere, or write the Koran on her naked body, as she did in Submission, it might have been her most mild to date.

    That in Kenya she was inspired by a more strict Saudi teacher rather than the more relaxed Islam of Somalia and Kenya seems a bit strange - that her posture now is as a disillusioned Wahhabi fanatic now condemning all of Islam for her once adopted Saudi vision - and it's strange even if subdued that she described the changes in Islam & "my part of the world" in the "last 2 decades" - she must missed the ascent of the Taliban in the 1980's or the Ayatollah in 1979 or the Somali Civil War that lasted until 2006. She segues again into how Islam is so tied to violence, when it's fairly obvious that the Christian nations have taken part in a lot of violence in Islamic countries since the 1970's and before - we did overthrow Mossadegh to put in the Shah's son, after all. We did help both sides in the Iran-Iraq war to increase the killing. We did pretty well encourage that uprising in Syria until we realized that the lunatics we were arming were dangerous lunatics. We did manage an about-face to topple Qaddafi even after we'd cuddled up to him and his tamer attitudes post-9/11. We did provide billions each year in support for Mubarek's military dictatorship since around 1979 to keep the Israeli situation calm. How exactly is she able to put all the blame for violence on the Islamic world - has Malaysia acted up lately? Brunei? What have the 300million+ Muslims in India done? Indonesia seems pretty sane and democratic with only a little bit of terrorism for a huge multiethnic country (consider the travails of the much smaller Northern Ireland or Spain with its Basques, or the atrocities in the breakup of Yugoslavia that was hardly the Bosnian Muslims' fault.

    To me I file her with someone like Christopher Hitchins who found a good marketing tool in outrage against Islam. He may have had a good point here and there, but most were overshadowed by his over-the-toppishness.

     


    One of the points that is sometimes overlooked in discussions about freedom of speech is its connection to sources of power and coercion. IOW, its social context.

    Without always saying so, advocates of unfettered free speech assume (argue for) a sort of Hyde Park Speaker's Corner context in which anyone can get up and say whatever he wants and at length to whomever happens to drift by. The crowd moves gently from speaker to speaker; a few are convinced; some are amused; still others are angered or annoyed, and everyone goes home for a late lunch afterward no worse for wear.

    The point is everyone gets his say. No one is turned away. No one is coerced into shutting up. No one loses his job by speaking or agreeing. Minds are enlightened or amused, some feathers are ruffled, and there are no other real consequences to all the free speech. Or the consequences, if any, are delayed and highly mediated.

    But this isn't the way speech, free or otherwise, works in the real world. We can see this by looking at some of the examples that have been brought up.

    Eich, though clearly exercising his right to give to a cause with which he agreed, was using this right to enlist the power of the state to coerce others into living a life of which he approved and to deny them lives of which he disapproved. He very much wanted to be married and very much didn't want others to be married, even though their marriages wouldn't impinge on or diminish his.

    Larry Summers, also exercising his right to speak freely, wasn't merely a scholar speculating on the disparities in math and science achievement among various student groups, he was doing so as the president of a university with the power to foster female mathematicians and scientists or discourage them and reduce their numbers. If you read the Saletan article, he skips over the key point: Did Summers argue that these differences were innate? Though this point apparently doesn't appear in Summers' slide show, this is what the faculty heard and what got them upset. Nor do other findings on the differences between male and female brains shed light on this issue. At this point, it's pure speculation and not necessarily innocent.

    (In essence, Summers' argument wasn't so different from Murray's that African Americans' statistically lower IQs are genetically based. He's gone to some length to deny that this was his thesis, but the writing appears to be on the pages of his book.)

    Ali, though exercising her right to free speech all over the world, isn't a disinterested commentator or "academic." She's been a politician; she is an activist. She aims not only to persuade, but to change people's minds in order to get them (and their governments) to act in specific ways. Enlightenment isn't her ultimate goal; action is. And this is true of lots of commentators, including people like Greenwald. Having a loud megaphone gives its user a fair amount of power over others.

     

     


    Yes, of course.  Most of our speech is meant to influence the world.  Most of it won't. Some of it might.  But if somebody's speech intends to change the world in ways you do not like (if, for example, somebody's speech demands that nobody stencil the Koran on their naked bodies because, religion) then you have to argue back.  That means that the total "live and let live" approach doesn't work because you will get trampled by people with stronger feelings and louder voices.

    This is also where Malik's equivalencies fall apart.  I won't tolerate a homophobe because they are taking other people's rights away from them.  I will tolerate people who look at Islamic extremists who threaten newspaper editors over political cartoons and say "that's deaht cult behavior" because, in that case, it is the Islamic extremist trying to take somebody else's freedom away.

    Malik says to tolerate the speaker no matter what.  I say you should consider choosing between the speaker who is asking other people to give something up and the one who isn't.


    I would have to look at her article again more closely, but I actually don't think she says to tolerate the speaker no matter what. This is PP's view of what she's saying, not hers.

    She mocks that view a bit by calling the people (who stood up for Ali when the invitation was withdrawn) "absolutist" free speechers. She's saying they don't live up to what they claim their creed is.

    But in using that pejorative word, she is signaling that she herself is not an "absolutist" when it comes to free speech.

    In reading a few of her other articles, she's far too interested in nuance and the "other side of the coin" of various issues to be an absolutist in anything.

    Admittedly, this is my reading. But the article wasn't a free speech manifesto; it was designed, primarily, to expose hypocrisy.

    Unless the dark side of her Muslim upbringing his asserting itself, I doubt she really thinks that true homophobes and anti-Semites should be invited to speak, as she would if she were an absolute free speecher.

    At bottom--again, my reading--she's tired of the Muslim ox being gored all the time and the gore-ers wrapping themselves in the high virtue of "absolute free speech." As if all they cared about were the principle, and their hands weren't dirty with Islamophobia or other motives.

    She tries to expose this hypocrisy with examples of speakers she doubts her targets would support, but should support if they were as "virtuous" as they claim to be. Left out of this because it isn't germane to her argument is the fact that she herself wouldn't support inviting phobes of all stripes to speak either--but that's okay and not hypocrisy, because she is not a free speech absolutist.

     


    Why don't you try not psychoanalyzing and simply take her words at face value? Maybe she can accept phobes speaking as long as it's not inciting violence - is that so strange?

    "Absolutist" is sarcastic when the people are absolute only about 1 group & not the rest.

    Really, your parsing is strange - "I'll interpret it with some kind of hidden meaning so I can then say it's wrong". I recall you doing that with Lulu as well.


    Actually, with LULU, I was proven right by what LULU said himself--twice--as the conversation went along and he felt comfortable saying, or starting to say, why he was interested in the article.

    You opined that maybe the study simply caught his fancy--but he said that he posted it because of the study's connections to much bigger ideas, trends--to that effect.

    That whole psychoanalytical thing was a bit of nonsense you introduced.


    Bullshit, I was just noting you were going off the rails rather than reading the fucking piece he actually wrote, and that your trying to decipher some sinister motive was going nowhere, which is where it went - over a set of 20 comments or so. Yes, mine was said in whimsy, but you didn't elicit anything more exciting from Lulu - just a lot of wasted time speculating and avoiding reading his piece seriously.


    No, sorry--you're wrong.

    First, he didn't write anything until he was questioned.

    Second, I was one of the few who actually read the article he linked to and read the links in that article, including the methodology. From the start.

    Third, he did start to write about what interested him about the article.

    Fourth, time was wasted mostly because LULU was hiding out for most of it.

    Fifth, even you admitted that in a sideways sort of way by opining that LULU was afraid to say what he thought for fear of being attacked.

     


    Here is her article from your link:

    "LONDON — The defense of free speech often hides a multitude of sins. Since Brandeis University withdrew an honor it had intended to bestow on the author and activist Ayaan Hirsi Ali, many have flocked to her defense in the name of free expression — no matter how offensive. But implicitly they are suggesting that Islam and Muslims are worthy targets of Ms. Hirsi Ali’s scorn. And their preciousness about the right to offend won’t be credible until they advocate extending it beyond Islamophobes — to racists, anti-Semites and homophobes, too.

    PS: This is pretty much all you have to read. Her target are those who came to Ali's defense once Brandeis withdraw the invitation. She implies that Ali's words are "offensive" and yet these people, whom she'll later call absolutists, still defend her. But their claim only to be interested in free speech is "precious" and won't be credible until they ALSO champion other very offensive types. Nowhere in the first paragraph does she expect them to do this (hence hypocrisy), and she is clearly not arguing that these other people should be allowed to speak.

    Brandeis stated that her planned address didn’t share the “university’s core values” and rescinded an honorary degree; the university’s volte face may have been clumsy, but it wasn’t censorship. In the eyes of Ms. Hirsi Ali’s supporters, however, Brandeis was “kowtowing to the Muslim hordes” and giving in to the pressure of Arab money.

    PS: Again, more or less supportive of Brandeis's decision, however "clumsy," but her target is clearly her hypocritical followers.

    It’s not entirely unreasonable that a liberal arts institution would view this sort of language as discordant with its values. After all, academic institutions are cultural battlegrounds, and they set the tone for contemporary discourse. But the accusations leveled at Brandeis show the perils of not sticking entirely to free speech absolutism.

    PS: Once again, she's supportive, doesn't find unreasonable, Brandeis's decision to, in your words, make a free speech exception--but notes the "perils of not sticking entirely to free speech absolutism," her principal charge against her target, i.e., Ali's allies.

    The university appeared not to have done basic research on Ms. Hirsi Ali’s rhetoric and how strong a reaction she often provokes. She skillfully rebranded the incident as an attack on free speech and an attempt to silence her. This summoned forth a panoply of voices coming to her defense; some went so far as to claim that she’d been metaphorically “honor killed.”

    PS: Brandeis's real mistake according to Malik is not having done their research. Had they done so, they would've discovered the disconnect between Ali and their liberal values.

    Couching Ms. Hirsi Ali’s defense in the derision of Islam is troubling — and it exposes how selective champions of free speech can be. In a rather hysterical response in The Daily Beast, James Kirchick peppered his defense of Ms. Hirsi Ali with references to Muslim detractors as one step away from terrorists, and drew a tenuous line between not granting someone an award and endorsing murder. He wrote that “forcing a university to rescind its honoring of an acclaimed critic of Islam exists on a censorious continuum that ends with the dismal fate of individuals like Theo van Gogh.” In Mr. Kirchick’s world, petitions are fatwas, and it’s only a matter of time before leafy university campuses are littered with the corpses of academic jihad’s victims.

    PS: Again, her critique is NOT that there was insufficient free speech going on here. Her target is the hypocrisy of Ali's supporters. She's critiquing those who critiqued Brandeis's invitation by petitioning the university to withdraw its invitation. IOW, she supports that petition and derides Kirchick's characterization of the petition as a "fatwa."

    Hysterics aside, broad generalizations like this suggest that there is no Muslim mainstream made up of people who have the right to object to, and fear, language that stigmatizes them; there are only terrorists and their victims. The implication is that because some Muslims have a record of violence toward critics and apostates, that all Muslims have it coming to them. It’s an argument that boils down not to, “because of freedom of speech” but “because they deserve it.”

    PS: She thinks there IS a Muslim mainstream and they DO have a right to fear and object to language (read: free speech) that stigmatizes them, etc., in the way that Alis's does. This is not an argument that segues nicely into inviting homophobes and anti-Semites to speak. It's an argument that argues why gays and Jews might justly object and try to put a stop to the phobes being given a platform for their "ideas."

    Swapping races and religions to gauge if the response to a particular incident would have been different is an imperfect counterfactual game, but in this instance it is instructive. Had Ms. Hirsi Ali been a widely acknowledged homophobe, or white supremacist, would free speech supporters have rushed so readily to their lecterns to defend her? Probably not, which is why the right to offend should be extended to all. Otherwise, our personal preferences will always dictate that there be exceptions.

    PS: This is where she takes a turn toward your argument (the underlined phrase). However, given what she's said thus far, it is a false move. In what way does allowing a homophobe to speak ease the burden of hate speech directed against Muslims--an issue that clear has clearly bothered her up to now? Since the West is unlikely to give up its hatred of Muslims, the least it can do is tolerate hatred of other groups. Ending hypocrisy is her non solution solution. See below...

    Europe, and Britain in particular, are less covetous of the principles embodied in the American Constitution’s First Amendment. And their experiences in recent years demonstrate the dangers of a more limited allowance of expression, and how going down this slippery slope always ends in inconsistency and the selective justification of offensive speech based on its target and the national mood.

    Earlier this year, a prospective British parliamentary candidate, who happened to be a Muslim, tweeted a cartoon of Jesus and Mohammed, part of “Jesus and Mo,” an irreverent series depicting the two religious figures in everyday situations. Some Muslims saw this as deliberately provocative and there was a backlash, including death threats. When mainstream British media outlets such as the BBC did not show the cartoon, the British press branded them cowards, traitors and free-speech equivocators.

    It is clearly far more palatable, even popular, to muscularly stand up for the right to offend Muslims than it is to back those who offend any other minority in Europe today. Indeed, when the notorious American Islamophobe Pamela Geller was banned from Britain on account of her vitriol toward Muslims, her exclusion was met with a chorus of objections. This selective attitude toward freedom of speech allows such disparities to become entrenched.

    PS: Her concern is Islamophobia. Her solution, which is a non-solution, is an end to hypocrisy by allowing other hatreds to bloom. If her concern were real free speech, then she wouldn't be bothered by people bashing Islam. After all, all the bashers are doing is engaging in free speech about an issue of concern to them. No one's concerned about all issues, all groups. Her concern is what she regards as undue criticism of Islam. Unfortunately, her solution is to allow 1000 hatreds to bloom so that, even if we're getting a good hate on, at least we won't be hypocrites.

    But notice, nowhere is she arguing for homophobie or anti-Semitism except that allowing or encouraging these expressions will at least end the hypocrisy. At Muslims won't feel so all alone in the hatred directed toward them.

    The reaction to the Brandeis affair is a troubling harbinger. It suggests that America, like Europe, might also begin to pick and choose who deserves to be protected from offensive speech. Once that door is open, the Trojan horse of libertarianism will smuggle in intolerance.

    PS: Here, the problem with her non-solution solution becomes clear in the pretzel-like shape it assumes. If we take her at her word, she's concerned with intolerance. And yet her suggestion for avoiding this intolerance would appear to be to allow even more intolerance against more groups to blossom. Huh? This is sort of a sad parody of the old adage: The solution to the problem of free speech is more free speech. Only her version is: The solution to Islamophobia is to give rein to homophobia, anti-Semitism and any other hatred that dare not speak its name. Aside from the very real problem that this doesn't work and is the opposite of what we, IMO, should do, it tramples over her initial concern as indicated pretty clearly in her opening five or so paragraphs: Islamophobia. But since she's reasonably enlightened, it's very hard to believe that she really wants to see a springtime for the phobias.

    Those who fancy themselves defenders of free speech must be consistent in their absolutism, and stand up for offensive speech no matter who is the target.

    PS: If Mohammad's ox is going to get gored (inevitably), then so must Moses's and Jesus's and Harvey Milk's...and anyone else's. It isn't that she's arguing for goring all these oxes; she's just saying that if Mohammad's ox is going to get gored, then everyone else's should, too. I suspect she hopes that if the world were forced to abandon its hypocrisy, and everyone's ox was getting gored, and people noticed how it felt, they'd leave the Muslim's alone for once.


    The other problem for her is partly practical.

    Someone DID invite Ali. Someones DID object to the invitation. Others objected to the objection and so on.

    But who is inviting homophobes to speak?

    You can't object to homophobes speaking unless they've invited to speak.

    And you can't stand up for homophobes speaking (against those objections) unless they're invited and someone else objects.

    Lots of practical difficulties for those who would follow her advice...

    But beyond this, homophobes DO speak. People DO object to them speaking. And people DO stand up for their right to speak over others' objections.

    We don't know who these various groups doing the objecting are, but here's a guess:

    • The folks standing up for Ali against the objectors are conservatives.

    • The folks standing up for homophobes against the objectors are also conservatives.

    Her target are the folks "standing up for," and they ARE consistent.

    She'd be on clearer ground if she'd said that if Brandeis was going to invite Ali to speak, they should also invite homophobes and anti-Semites to speak and all the other haters too. But she doesn't say that (significantly), and Brandeis, if you read her closely, isn't her target--it's those people who objected to the objectors (the petitioners) in the name of free speech.


    At least you see it as the hypocrisy that Malik is railing against.

    I'm not sure I agree it's a "non-solution solution" to get people to be less hypocritical. Getting people to accept gays is tougher than a law to uphold gay rights, but over the last decade the amount of acceptance of gays has increased dramatically. What she's describing isn't something that can be legislated, but it can happen, perhaps by being more outspoken about it, perhaps by other strategies.


    You are partly right on the hypocrisy angle.

    I think she starts with Islamophobia as the problem and then sees less hypocrisy as a solution to that problem, in particular.

    Less hypocrisy could be a solution if people found themselves disliking their own hypocrisy--though people find ways to explain it away, they also don't like it in principle--and saw that the way forward was not to defend the other phobias, but to object to all the phobias.

    It might also work if the hatred was stoked to the point where no one had an ox any more--they'd all been gored to death in a consistent 360-degree hatred fest--and folks turned away from that nihilistic end. Hating is hard work.

    The gay cause has had some important things going for it. Many people have gay friends and relatives. They believe in love when they see it. They believe in fairness. They've had "gay feelings" of their own. People they admire otherwise turn out to be gay. They can't see how a gay marriage hurts their own marriage.

    Islam doesn't have those advantages, so it's a harder road to hoe, IMO.


    But this is also why the offending "exception" is not necessarily offensive and doesn't necessarily mark an inconsistency.

    As you pointed out elsewhere, exponents of the Islamic faith have been some of the most violent people of recent times and violent in the name of Islam.

    We don't see gays being violent in the name of being gay.

    So there may be some rational for treating or thinking of Islamophobes and homophobes somewhat differently.

    IOW, it's not just that a person likes one and dislikes the other as a matter of personal taste. There is some rhyme and reason at work here.

    Please don't misunderstand: I'm not drawing a bright line here, but I am saying that the exception may not be reducible to just happening to like one and dislike the other.


    Ernst Röhm of the exclusive gay SturmAbteilung (SA or Brownshirts) led one of the most thuggish massive organizations of modern times, culminating in Kristallnacht. I imagine there are other examples, but I'm not silly enough to tie being gay to being violent. Nor am I silly enough to tie being Muslim to being violent, despite what I supposedly pointed out elsewhere. (you mean the 100 years 1300 years ago after Muhammad died when they spread Islam from Gibraltar to Indonesia?). Dictatorial leaders of all ethnicities are often cruel and violent, whether Russian, Korean, Cambodian, Congolese, Argentinian, Haitian.

    "There is some rhyme and reason at work here." - there might be sublimated self-rationalized racism at work hree.


    And of course, this isn't what I'm saying nor implying.

    I doubt there is any social phenomenon, no matter how widespread or bad, that applies to 100% of any group's members--or even close to that.

    Clearly, there were many Germans who weren't anti-Semitic and didn't agree with Hitler in this or in many other regards. And Jews had/have our share of Uncle Jakes.

    But that didn't mean there wasn't a problem in Germany.

    You always have to use judgment and a fine-toothed observational and reflective comb. When you make black and white rules--like "no exceptions"--then, despite good intentions, you run roughshod over important distinctions and differences. You stop looking and thinking and simply apply the rule.

    (Which is what, I believe, leads Malik to say that we must demand that haters like true homophobes and true anti-Semites get something. When you parse her words, it becomes harder and harder to make sense of her suggestion.)

    Problems arise when a group has traditionally been painted with a broad brush. Not only was the broad brush unfair, but now it becomes exceedingly difficult to say anything negative about them. One picks up a tiny detail brush, and all they can see (and with some real justification) is the 5" brush coming at them.

    At that point--IMO--it becomes important to make quite a few strokes with the detail brush to establish that you aren't using the 5" brush...and aren't holding it in reserve in your other hand just waiting for a chance to use it.


    99%+ of Muslims seem to be peaceful. Certainly more than 1930's Germans who weren't anti-Semitic.

    So where is the fine-tooth reflective comb when it comes to Muslims?

    Let's see - we overthrew Hussein even after he'd cooperated with inspectors who'd found nothing, and left chaos, a puppet administration and civil war in our wake. We overthrew Qaddafi, even though he'd cooperated with us post-9/11. We armed the rebels to overthrow Assad until we belatedly discovered the rebels were fundamentalist nutcakes, but even though Assad has given up his chemical weapons for destruction we're still demonizing him. We've claimed a robust Iranian nuke program for 15 years now, even though they're struggling to keep up with 5% enriched. We did throw out the nutcake Taliban, but now seem chagrined that they're not thrilled with immunity for our soldiers.

    Then there are the Muslim countries like Indonesia, Brunei, Malaysia, the 300m+ Muslim population of India, Morocco, Turkey, Bangladesh, Uzbekistan, Guinea, Azerbaijan, Qatar, Senegal....

    What are Muslims doing in these countries that invites Islamophobia? I see Greeks & Serbs & Russians acting crazy, sometimes murderously so, but we haven't gone to blaming Orthodox Christianity.


    So where is the fine-tooth reflective comb when it comes to Muslims?

    For one, among the people who objected to Ali speaking.


      I don't know if 99 percent of Moslems can be called peaceful, since a considerable minority support terrorism. But Americans might not be better, or at least weren't before Iraq and Afghanistan turned them dovish. But I would like to know exactly how the questions were phrased.

    http://www.csmonitor.com/2007/0223/p09s01-coop.html


    Thanks for this - I threw my 99% out rather as a guess, but it's nice to see the issue in more statistical depth. & yeah, matters how they phrased the questions.


      This survey is rather less encouraging, as they included the option of "rarely" rather than just "often or sometimes".

    http://www.pewglobal.org/2006/05/23/where-terrorism-finds-support-in-the...


    I don't understand. I've hung out in the US with North Africans and Pakistanis, chatting every day in cafés and bars. I had an Iranian landlord. My local grocer was Libyan. There are large Muslim populations in LA, New York, Detroit, elsewhere. There are Muslims on every campus (no bombings, no killings). 


    She doesn't say "don't argue back"- she encourages speaking up. She says, "don't speak up for 1 phobe's free speech and fall silent for the other phobes". How many times must this be said?

    "That means that the total "live and let live" approach doesn't work because you will get trampled by people with stronger feelings and louder voices." - well you're right - that doesn't work, does it? let's get a gun then, because louder voices will prevail - I feel so helpless with only words.

    "Malik says to tolerate the speaker no matter what." - she says to tolerate the speaker's speech (presumably when not inciting violence or some other unacceptable quotient).  She doesn't say not to answer with better speech.

    Basically, all you're saying is you'll tolerate free speech if it fits your opinion, and otherwise you reserve the right to take your gloves off - whether speech, boycott, whatever.

    Increible.


    She doesn't say "don't argue back"- she encourages speaking up. She says, "don't speak up for 1 phobe's free speech and fall silent for the other phobes". How many times must this be said?

    She is NOT encouraging people to speak up for the phobes. If she were doing that, she could easily have made a straightforward argument: Who will speak up for the homophobes and anti-Semites?

    What she's saying is that as long as you're going gore Mohammad's ox, you'd better gore Moses's ox, too.

    She says NOTHING ABOUT BETTER SPEECH OR BEHAVIOR. NOTHING. All she's after is an equivalency.


    Right, and here's the thing... I'll freely gore the Moses ox, if that ox happens to trample in my yard.  But so far, it has stayed in its own pen.  It's the Islamist ox who is out there threatening newspaper editors over political cartoons and threatening Ali for her provocation.  So, that ox, I'll gore.


    Ali for one is a documented liar, an issue you ignore - she claimed gang rape to get Dutch residence. Her tactics such as filming the Koran written on her nude are nothing like Glenn Greenwald, who argues as a lawyer and is not gratuitously insulting.

    Summers' "argument" was discussing 3 possibilities, and instead of a lower average, he discussed that a different *distribution* rather than *average* could affect typical academic results within your cohort - e.g. a clumpy group at the top could produce more successful / high ranking accepted scholars than a smooth distribution from average to excellent, even if the average of men & women were identical. So no, it is quite different from Murray's theory. I can't help it if even PhD's can't understand statistics though.

    "Nor do other findings on the differences between male and female brains shed light on this issue." - well these finidings sure as hell show that some cognitive differences are "innate", don't they? So the people listening to his speech were innately stupid at dismissing what they think controversial when it might actually be true despite all their clicking-heels-wishing-they-were-in-Kansas. They were apparently too stupid to understand he wasn't even saying that men might be more math-oriented, simply that differences in distribution can change success levels.

    "Eich, though clearly exercising his right to give to a cause with which he agreed, was using this right to enlist the power of the state to coerce others into living a life of which he approved and to deny them lives of which he disapproved. "  - Eich was sticking up for a position that probably your parents or grandparents agreed with, and well over half the country agreed with at the time. "Deny them lives"- jesus fucking christ, it's a goddamn piece of paper, and if the state accepts civil partnerships for me & my S.O. and us crossing the border and medical benefits and inheritence and child custody, then we have no reason to be married - we only did it to speed immigration at the time. I didn't get married in a fucking church because I'm an atheist and don't give a shit, and am allergic to chiffon. I know lots of people with kids who aren't married and it's all fine, no need - 30 years they can't be bothered. There's really little difference except for the religious significance, and that religion usually says homosexuality is wrong. I'm not such an ass that I go to my mum's church to show off piercings and talk about being an atheist and being fine with premarital teen sex or legalizing drugs or all the issues that will offend - she gets her life, I get mine. So you're taking someone's sexual world and lifestyle and belief and cramming it into someone else's. If I started a club for ultimate frisbee, some asshole's going to demand that I set up equal time for golf. Yeah, there are other ways of looking at this, but chew on this one a while.


    Ali for one is a documented liar, an issue you ignore - she claimed gang rape to get Dutch residence. Her tactics such as filming the Koran written on her nude are nothing like Glenn Greenwald, who argues as a lawyer and is not gratuitously insulting.

    PS: So? You're not reading what I'm saying. Ali IS in a position of power. If anything, I'm arguing in favor of the petition as a procedural matter. And so is Malik (remember her comment about a petition not being a fatwa?). But in your world (here), pressuring Brandeis to withdraw the invite to Ali is ANTI-free speech. If you say she's a liar then that pressure was pretty reasonable, even though it was, in your terms, anti free speech.

    Summers' "argument" was discussing 3 possibilities, and instead of a lower average, he discussed that a different *distribution* rather than *average* could affect typical academic results within your cohort - e.g. a clumpy group at the top could produce more successful / high ranking accepted scholars than a smooth distribution from average to excellent, even if the average of men & women were identical. So no, it is quite different from Murray's theory. I can't help it if even PhD's can't understand statistics though.

    PS: You're not addressing what I said. I'm talking about how someone in a position of power should behave and the real impact his words and attitudes can have on people whose lives he's entrusted with.

    "Nor do other findings on the differences between male and female brains shed light on this issue." - well these finidings sure as hell show that some cognitive differences are "innate", don't they? So the people listening to his speech were innately stupid at dismissing what they think controversial when it might actually be true despite all their clicking-heels-wishing-they-were-in-Kansas. They were apparently too stupid to understand he wasn't even saying that men might be more math-oriented, simply that differences in distribution can change success levels.

    PS: But the argument was not that there were NO innate traits just that math traits were not shown to be innate. And just because trait X is innate it in no way implies that trait Y is innate. That has to be shown separately. And since, in the meantime, as you've argued, all these findings might be reversed in 40 years' time, someone in a position of power to influence the future of lives ought to be more responsible. If you're the president of anything, you don't get to let your freak flag fly.

    "Eich, though clearly exercising his right to give to a cause with which he agreed, was using this right to enlist the power of the state to coerce others into living a life of which he approved and to deny them lives of which he disapproved. "  - Eich was sticking up for a position that probably your parents or grandparents agreed with, and well over half the country agreed with at the time.

    PS: So what? Suddenly, you're cool with moving with the crowd? As you may recall, I didn't think he should have been pressured to resign; he should've been encouraged to stay and confronted on the issue in accordance with the things he had elsewhere professed. If he leaves, it's a lost opportunity.

    "Deny them lives"- jesus fucking christ, it's a goddamn piece of paper, etc.

    PS: Then there should be no big deal in granting it to gays as well especially as a "marriage license" is a civil piece of paper--yes? But beyond this, I'm not sure Eich's position was against marriage but for CUs--was it? Not sure how often these two views go together among those mounting propositions of this sort. Maybe they do.

    But religion and legality aside, it's pretty clear just scanning our culture that marriage occupies a special place in our collective psyche. Think of all the industries devoted to helping people get married. Think of all the iconography. Think of how people dream of some day getting married. Now, maybe this isn't the way society should view marriage, but it is, and as Malik would say, as long as straights can get married, then gays should be able to get married, too.

    So you're taking someone's sexual world and lifestyle and belief and cramming it into someone else's. If I started a club for ultimate frisbee, some asshole's going to demand that I set up equal time for golf.

    PS: This could be an argument for redlining and the gentleman's agreement, I suppose. Here I had a nice goyishe lifestyle and then Schwartz's had to ruin it all. But seriously, allowing gay marriage doesn't mean that the straights in the hood have to start engaging in anal sex, etc. So where's the, ah, cramming?

    Edit to add: It's not as though gay people are illegal aliens invading "our" society. They are part and parcel of our society. They are equal members of the families in which they're born and so on. So it's not as if "our" institutions are "ours" and they have "no right to them" and are simply trying to horn in on the goodies. Our society is theirs too. The institutions of our society like marriage are not like ultimate frisbee clubs in which some people have membership and others don't.

    Yeah, there are other ways of looking at this, but chew on this one a while.

    PS: Despite your accusation that I try to analyze folks, I try not to get personal or nasty or insulting in my comments (though I have failed). I try to take what you say seriously and respond in detail and at length. I find that it's a better way to keep the "free speech" thing going not to imply that your partner is stupid or slow. I commend it to you. It might be another thing if I treated your comments as beneath me, but I don't. Or, if you feel that I do, please point it out and I'll try to do better.

     


    "But seriously, allowing gay marriage doesn't mean that the straights in the hood have to start engaging in anal sex, etc. So where's the, ah, cramming?"

    As someone noted, who will deny the rights of Muslims to marry 4 wives? And if they can marry 4 wives, certainly gay Muslims can marry 4 men. I think I just answered your question. N-Joy. Me, I'll be following Gandhi's lead by sleeping with young girls and thinking pure thoughts to prove myself.


    I think if you can show that no consent was involved--man on dog--or coercion or harm was involved--polygamy--you have a case to make.

    The latter isn't black and white, but it isn't just arbitrary, either.


    Why is polygamy "coercion" or "harm"?


    Could be either or both--we'd have to take a look.


    Marriage is frequently abusive, gay relationships can get out of control and the incidence of AIDS is higher - so suddenly we need a litmus test, some examination on a case-by-case basis, or how do you mean "we'd have to take a look"? Will they need a "no harm, no coercion" certificate?


    I'm not talking about individuals--I'm talking about the structure of the relationship.

    Look, it wasn't more than 5 minutes ago in Internet time that you were defending people who wanted to maintain a legal barrier to gays getting married.

    A large part of society's growing acceptance of gay relationships and marriage comes from the kind of "take a look" that I'm talking about.

    People took a look and have concluded that gay marriage is, in large part, no different from straight marriage. That it's a social good, regardless.

    Yes, there is a litmus test: Is this kind of relationship inherently harmful and exploitative or is it not?

    I can easily imagine society "taking a looking" and evolving into an acceptance of polygamy. To use one of your favorite arguments, it wasn't that long ago that polygamy was an accepted norm.

     


    I'm defending them *DISCUSSING* whether gays should marry, without being burned at the stake or chased out of the village. Whether gays should "marry" vs. having all normal rights of partners except that churchy thing, well, I'm probably the wrong guy to ask as I'm an atheist and think people should be able to do most of what they want but really don't look forward to more pieces of paper and think the super-religious should have their right to breath and express too. I don't think anyone's denying the fancy wedding party - it's now down to recognition by the federal government and/or the church. Well gee, it's the guys who brought you drones & the police state vs those who brought the Inquisition and the genocide in Latin America - someone's really hungry for approval.

    But I can answer your litmus in 1/2 a second - there's nothing inherently harmful and exploitative in polygamy that isn't there in regular marriage, sexist & slave-driving work situations, non-monogamous dating, promiscuity, bondage clubs, parental abuse & neglect of children, etc. And since we have divorce by both sides in this country, there's nothing inherent reason a spouse that dislikes the situation can't then divorce.


    I'm defending them *DISCUSSING* whether gays should marry, without being burned at the stake or chased out of the village.

    PS: No; you were defending someone taking an affirmative step to outlaw gay marriage. The Prop wasn't about having a "discussion." It was about deciding whether someone could marry the person he loved.

    Whether gays should "marry" vs. having all normal rights of partners except that churchy thing, well, I'm probably the wrong guy to ask as I'm an atheist and think people should be able to do most of what they want but really don't look forward to more pieces of paper and think the super-religious should have their right to breath and express too. I don't think anyone's denying the fancy wedding party - it's now down to recognition by the federal government and/or the church. Well gee, it's the guys who brought you drones & the police state vs those who brought the Inquisition and the genocide in Latin America - someone's really hungry for approval.

    PS: A marriage license is a short, simple, civic piece of paper. Religion doesn't enter into this at all, since no church or syngagogue or mosque ceremony is required, and neither would any religious institution be required to marry anyone. The state would be required to issue marriage licenses. The union would be called "a marriage" just as it already is. Straight couples who get married by a justice of the peace or a ship captain are "married."

    But I can answer your litmus in 1/2 a second - there's nothing inherently harmful and exploitative in polygamy that isn't there in regular marriage, sexist & slave-driving work situations, non-monogamous dating, promiscuity, bondage clubs, parental abuse & neglect of children, etc. And since we have divorce by both sides in this country, there's nothing inherent reason a spouse that dislikes the situation can't then divorce.

    PS: No; you can't.  Half a second ago, you were speaking up for the weight of tradition and how views firmly held by most people just a year ago and by our parents and grandparents all their lives shouldn't be treated with such scorn by the PC police or even the rest of us. If Eich wanted this particular litmus test for marriage well, hey, so did we a little while ago and so did our parents.

    Debating the pros and cons of polygamy isn't relevant to this discussion, and I don't feel like going there. However, I would say that there is at least the appearance of exploitation when a husband has 5 wives, and each of those wives has only 1/5 of a husband. Seems a bit unequal right off the bat. If women are exploited and harmed in highly patriarchal marriages, then the risk of that would seem to go way up when they are part of a harem headed by one man.

    But hey, I'm open to experience showing us all the harmlessness, value and beauty of this kind of relationship. Most of the ones I've heard about haven't seemed that way to me. That's why I say, we'd have to see.

    The state doesn't put its seal of approval on the examples you list above, and, in fact, has made a number of them illegal and subject to severe penalties. So you can't say with any validity that society countenances all those things with monogamists, so it should also countenance polygamy. Doesn't wash.

     


    Golf just got a boost - helmets & rollerblades


    This post seems pertinent to the discussion.
     
     
    [T]he Foundation for Individual Rights in Education [is] a civil-liberties watchdog group that defends the rights of college students and faculty. As you probably assumed, many cases FIRE gets involved in stem from “politically correct” censorship; but the range of university abuses is much wider than that. The motives often have less to do with ideology than with administrative bullying, paranoia or stupidity.
     
    To take a particularly absurd example, in January a Bergen Community College professor was placed on leave after he posted on Google+ a photograph of his young daughter wearing a "Game of Thrones" T-shirt with the quote, “I will take what is mine with fire & blood.” An administrator deemed the photo a disturbing threat of violence.
     
    The cumulative effect of even such apparently minor incidents is pernicious. Students learn to keep their heads down and express their views only when they are sure to have a friendly audience. The competition among ideas, on which education and the advancement of knowledge depends, withers.
     
    ...FIRE has tallied a list of more than 120 famous and not-so-famous invited speakers and honorary degree recipients who have been uninvited and dis-honored after noisy complaints from offended pressure groups. 
     

    Quite pertinent, thanks.


    Bumped into another one:

    Charles Murray: An open letter to the students of Azusa Pacific University | AEIdeas

    I was scheduled to speak to you tomorrow. I was going to talk about my new book, “The Curmudgeon’s Guide to Getting Ahead,” and was looking forward to it. But it has been “postponed.” Why? An email from your president, Jon Wallace, to my employer, the American Enterprise Institute (AEI), said “Given the lateness of the semester and the full record of Dr. Murray’s scholarship, I realized we needed more time to prepare for a visit and postponed Wednesday’s conversation.” This, about an appearance that has been planned for months. I also understand from another faculty member that he and the provost were afraid of “hurting our faculty and students of color.”

     
    You’re at college, right? Being at college is supposed to mean thinking for yourselves, right? Okay, then do it. Don’t be satisfied with links to websites that specialize in libeling people. Lose the secondary sources. Explore for yourself the “full range” of my scholarship and find out what it is that I’ve written or said that would hurt your faculty or students of color. It’s not hard. In fact, you can do it without moving from your chair if you’re in front of your computer.
     
    You don’t have to buy my books. Instead, go to my web page at AEI. There you will find the full texts of dozens of articles I’ve written for the last quarter-century. Browse through them. Will you find anything that is controversial? That people disagree with? Yes, because (hang on to your hats) scholarship usually means writing about things on which people disagree.
     
    The task of the scholar is to present a case for his or her position based on evidence and logic. Another task of the scholar is to do so in a way that invites everybody into the discussion rather than demonize those who disagree. Try to find anything under my name that is not written in that spirit. Try to find even a paragraph that is written in anger, takes a cheap shot, or attacks women, African Americans, Latinos, Asians, or anyone else.
     
    But there’s another way to decide whether you would have been safe in my hands if I had spoken at Azusa Pacific. Go to YouTube and search “Charles Murray.” You will get links to dozens of lectures, panel discussions, and television interviews. You can watch Q&A sessions in which I field questions from students like you, including extremely hostile ones. Watch even for a few minutes. Ask yourself if I insult them or lash out. If I do anything except take their questions seriously and answer them accordingly. Ask yourself if I’m anything more dangerous than an earnest and nerdy old guy.
     
    Azusa Pacific’s administration wants to protect you from earnest and nerdy old guys who have opinions that some of your faculty do not share. Ask if this is why you’re getting a college education.
     
    Sincerely,
     
    Charles Murray

    Actually the email of the president is a good idea if it really means postponing and preparing - i.e. to debate or engage fully and deeply with research, not just hearing for the first time.

    I think someone like Charles Murray could be very dangerous for an untrained mind tempted by easy answers. I don't know if Murray is right or wrong, deep or not, but I get the idea that contemplating some of the issues, finding backup information (possible different locations or settings), and other scholarly analysis could be very worthwhile, and then going to hear hiim with a somewhat informed mind.

    The old adage "know your enemy" doesn't mean just listen to and be persuaded by your enemy (whether Murray or his ideas are "enemies" or not)


    One of the letters, which Murray himself praised for starting to research and find direct works by him rather than SPLC excerpts or misquotes.

    Sir, I am a student here and objected to the proposed speaking engagement. I sent the email pasted below to our university. Note that none of us were opposed to you sharing your views, only the format of the event because of its seeming endorsement of your scholarship. If the event truly has been scheduled for months, you should understand they notified us only a week ago. When you do come to speak here–I think it will be a healthier forum for all parties involved.
    ________________________
    Dear ____ _____,

    I can only imagine the amount of stress you have been under for these past 24 hours and hope this Holy Week will give you as well as our whole community a renewed sense of optimism about the future.

    As far as I know, I was the first person to raise questions about Dr. Murray’s views in relation to our principles as a Christian community. When I saw the invitation for the event, I recognized his name and began to research why it was so familiar to me. I eventually came across the Southern Poverty Law Center’s warning of Dr. Murray’s views and classification of him as a white nationalist. I want to say that I am familiar with skepticism of SPLC hate classifications and so I proceeded to review their report with an initial spirit of skepticism. However, I became deeply concerned as I began to read excerpts from his writings. I understand excerpts are only excerpts and so I consequently contacted university faculty so his worldview could be studied through more seasoned minds than my own. Specifically, I contacted President Wallace as well as faculty from the School of Theology and Office of Multi-Ethnic Programs. The faculty I met with shared my concern about what seemed to be racist writings of Dr. Murray and Dr. Wallace forwarded my concerns to Provost Stanton for an inquiry into the situation.

    I would like to say I am open to dialogue and am not opposed to Dr. Murray visiting APU at any time. What concerned me about this event is that the “book signing” element of it seemed to signify an endorsement of his work as a scholar, which is problematic for many of us in this community. Furthermore, some of us were also concerned that an individual with such divisive issues on race was invited to speak on advice for today’s youth (as I understand it), which appeared to be a university endorsement that this man is wise. The timing was also an issue as the student body was given short notice of the engagement and little time to consult his scholarship in depth.

    I would like to conclude by saying I like you and believe you’ll make a great dean here. My hope is that you understand I have striven to be as genuine and Christ-like as I can about this event and that I would not have taken the actions outlined here with any malicious intent against you or the university. In fact, the principles of the university are what drove me to question Dr. Murray’s speaking engagement in the first place.

    If you would like to meet in person to discuss this situation in more detail, you are welcome to contact me any time. I greatly appreciate the seriousness and sensitivity my concerns were met with by the university over these last 24 hours.

    God bless,


    Steven M. Howard

     


    Thanks for the additional info on this particular contretemp.

    I haven't read Murray myself though I keep thinking I should since he is so controversial. I shared his letter after seeing it and noticing that what happened to him was similar to what happened to Malik. Also remembered his name had been mentioned in one of your and Peter's rounds above.

    After reading the student's letter I think I might have objected to Murray's visit simply because it seemed designed more as part of a book promotion than a scholarly lecture and discussion.

     


    I think that most of these sorts of events have book signings and sellings.


    I guess it's either that or straight up pay them if you actually want them to speak.

     


    As I've read about him, a lot of the controversy swirls around whether he assembled and drew conclusions from the data properly. Methodological stuff.

    Then there's the controversy over whether he actually asserted--in, say, The Bell Curve--that the generally lower IQs among blacks that he says he proved with the data is genetic. Inherent. Something that no one can do anything about, including blacks.

    I think I'm right in saying that just because a person has a genetic predisposition doesn't mean he will manifest those traits. In the case of disease, for example, you need certain triggers for a disease to manifest. Also, not every member of a group that generally manifests a trait is going to share the trait.

    Ashkenazi Jews are prone to Tay Sachs disease. I may carry the gene, but I don't have the disease. Most Jews that I've known don't have it. I've known only one black person with sickle cell. And so on.

    So even if Murray's proven his case and lower IQs among blacks have a genetic basis, it doesn't follow that "the system" should treat black children as if they had limited potential and turn their backs on them or steer them toward manual labor. Or something. Of course, the understandable fear is that that is what will happen. Society will turn its back on black kids even more than it has already.

    (A lot of the intellectual roots of "welfare reform" were planted by Murray's work, Losing Ground.)

    Of course, this presupposes that Murray is right about what he's shown and is asserting. That's a big presupposition. And none of this is touched by Murray's kindly, avuncular manner and eagerness to have others judge him by the content of his ideas instead of by the labels that have been placed on him. He's asking for a sort of pro forma fairness that should be extended to all serious scholars; however, it's next to impossible for anyone at a lecture to get into the methodological weeds of his research. That's something for a social science conference where his peers can tangle with the details.


    Talking genetics & inheritance in our culture is a waste of time.

    It's like Lake Wobegone - everyone should be above average, no one's allowed to be below average. Genetics is allowed to have a positive physical effect, even a positive intelligence effect (are Asians really better in math?) but not a negative intelligence effect or negative effect on capabilities. It's really wrestling with 1 hand behind your back.

    The worse part is the simple conclusions from stupid theory - where we give all kids the same material, the same tests, and wonder why they don't all do well. Bob Somerby notes ad nauseum that approaching kids who are behind in the 3rd grade and lacked all sorts of cultural experience that their more successful peers had - is doomed to failure. Oddly, I ran across a similar observation from Murray in 15 secs of perusing his stuff.

    But "No Child Left Behind" gets funded, sane policies don't. Even if genetics accounted for some %, it certainly doesn't replace the majority, but devising educational strategies around our actual situation is frowned on. Presumably once we can self-train on everything all this will go away, but what about 1) people who don't self-train/self-motivate well, and 2) non-individual skills that become more important like teamwork, communicating, et al...

    Re: Losing Ground, I do remember nasty housing projects, and it's funny that they never really get discussed when people are complaining about welfare reform. Of course housing projects didn't get invented in America, and the 50's & 60's saw a lot of investment in a living environment that doesn't seem to please many who live there, including Paris slums, grey East European tenements, etc. But the unspectacular results of welfare in changing poverty in the 80's led to the desire to do something/anything in the 90's. (and for the billionth time, Bush's change to welfare reform in 2003 led to the real disaster, not Clinton).


    I'm not sure anyone, other than people like Jared Taylor, claims that Asians are GENETICALLY better at math.

    I like Bob very much, but even as you describe what he says, he's not arguing that those kids are behind because of genetics.

    The genetics argument is a much more serious step and must be taken much more seriously because you are--unless you're very, very careful--limiting someone's horizons with a biological argument.

    Mugsy Boggs notwithstanding, it's like telling a kid that he's short, so he'll never play in the NBA--but you're doing it in the intellectual realm. "You're black, so really, you're cut out for hard labor. Forget about those dreams of becoming a doctor; think about a nice janitorial position in the local hospital."

    The reason that positive genetics arguments often go unchallenged--even if they are dead wrong--is that their application doesn't do as much damage to the lives of people to whom they're applied.

    I could see an Asian kid growing up wondering why the heck he wasn't good at math when "everyone knows that ALL Asians have good math genes." That could put undue pressure on him and drive him crazy.

    But it's less pejorative on its face to say someone has a good math gene than to say someone has a bad math gene. So, even if the former is wrong, it probably does less damage. After all, if a kid believes that he has a good math gene, he might just work like hell at it and become pretty good despite having an average talent for it.

    But if he's told from the get-go that his genetic make up makes him too stupid to do math, he might take it as a challenge and "show them" and become good, but he's more likely (I think) to give up when he hits the first bump. In any event, it puts an extra burden on him that wasn't necessary. Math is hard enough as is.


    "it's next to impossible for anyone at a lecture to get into the methodological weeds of his research. That's something for a social science conference where his peers can tangle with the details."

    The problem here is that any controversial idea in any arena is basically a challenge to prevailing canon. Conclusions in soft sciences are more subjective, less empirical than those of hard sciences. They are often more like opinions: everyone has one of their own. 

    "So even if Murray's proven his case and lower IQs among blacks have a genetic basis, it doesn't follow that "the system" should treat black children as if they had limited potential and turn their backs on them or steer them toward manual labor. Or something. Of course, the understandable fear is that that is what will happen. Society will turn its back on black kids even more than it has already."

    So what you are saying is that Murray's findings should be squelched because they will be used to further disadvantage black children? That is rather extreme. Isn't the proper scientific way to check them for accuracy and repeat or replicate the studies on which they are based if possible?

    After all this time since The Bell Curve was published, I would think if Murray's finding were inaccurate that would already be widely known. If they are accurate, better to spend time and energy on figuring out why. Maybe its genetics, maybe culture, maybe nutrition, maybe it is the tests. Whatever. If it is a problem and I am not sure it is, try to fix it. Don't just hand-wave it away because it disturbs multicultural sensibilities.

     


    "it's next to impossible for anyone at a lecture to get into the methodological weeds of his research. That's something for a social science conference where his peers can tangle with the details."

    The problem here is that any controversial idea in any arena is basically a challenge to prevailing canon. Conclusions in soft sciences are more subjective, less empirical than those of hard sciences. They are often more like opinions: everyone has one of their own. 

    PS: Yes, but that doesn't mean that every controversial idea is true or worthwhile. We need some way of distinguishing good from bad. Otherwise, why pay attention even to controversial ideas if they're just so much chin music? Some controversial ideas DO get tested and accepted. And the prevailing canon wasn't always prevailing. It had to prevail back when it was new or controversial.

    "So even if Murray's proven his case and lower IQs among blacks have a genetic basis, it doesn't follow that "the system" should treat black children as if they had limited potential and turn their backs on them or steer them toward manual labor. Or something. Of course, the understandable fear is that that is what will happen. Society will turn its back on black kids even more than it has already."

    So what you are saying is that Murray's findings should be squelched because they will be used to further disadvantage black children? That is rather extreme. Isn't the proper scientific way to check them for accuracy and repeat or replicate the studies on which they are based if possible?

    PS: Not squelched, but you'd have to know what to do with them. I'm saying that even if his ideas were true (a big if, IMO) a teacher shouldn't look out at a sea of black faces and think to herself: "All these kids have potential limited by their genetics." She can't know that from the statistics. As with any class, there may well be geniuses in there and many kids with IQs equal to anyone else. A statistical assertion doesn't mean that every member of the class is going to adhere to what the statistics predict.

    As to what to do with his ideas (if true), I'm not sure. I'd have to think about that. But as I say, there's a HUGE debate over WHETHER his ideas are true. That's the first question to answer, and it hasn't been answered AFAIK.

    After all this time since The Bell Curve was published, I would think if Murray's finding were inaccurate that would already be widely known. If they are accurate, better to spend time and energy on figuring out why. Maybe its genetics, maybe culture, maybe nutrition, maybe it is the tests. Whatever. If it is a problem and I am not sure it is, try to fix it. Don't just hand-wave it away because it disturbs multicultural sensibilities.

    PS: First, see your note on the subjectivity of the social sciences. That would also be true of Murray, yes? Many folks have gone to some length to show the problems with Murray's ideas and his statistical methods. It's not just "hand waving" or hurt multicultural sensibilities. In the social sciences, ideas don't necessarily go away even after they've been proven wrong or flawed. To some degree, this is the problem with the social sciences. Keynes goes out of favor and then comes back into favor. Same with Friedman.

    This is also true in the harder sciences. Knowledge is constantly being revised. Then you have problems like Newton and Einstein BOTH being correct at the same time, only in different ways. And that's physics. Lots of folks reject Darwin even though most of the scientific establishment backs his thesis in general.


    This last part is very important. There has been much criticism from his peers (and some support). A lot of scientists have published many papers demonstrating problems with Murray's research. Many other scientists have decided not to for the same reason that many biologists wouldn't debate Kenneth Ham: they don't want to give Murray the publicity. Now, I'm not saying that Murray's research is as obviously faulty as Ham's "research", just that it's got many, many flaws, and those flaws have been pointed out. Letting him present those ideas as if they're not disputed is a disservice. As usual, Wikipedia is a good start, although it naturally is incomplete.


    And yet look at the way Murray disingenuously portrays himself to a naive student body: "Oh, I'm just a poor put upon academic whose only aim is the truth and only sin is my willingness to be controversial and not follow the herd."


    Perhaps this is the real Curse Of Ham?

    Or why Jews don't eat ham?

    Despite all the many hams among us?


    I've found VA and PP's discussion interesting.

    I find I have conflicting feelings and views and can't get a clear bead on what I think about this.

    • I agree with PP (at least as I understand him) that people shouldn't be fired for exercising their rights, which this donation clearly was. There was nothing unlawful or unethical about it, and nothing that would affect his job performance at all, especially when it was private, which is what it should have remained (unless there's public reporting on these sorts of donations).

    • So I don't agree with VA that Eich's action was in any way similar to what that other CEO did to his girlfriend--clearly an unlawful and/or unethical act. Nothing close to contributing to a cause in which you believe.

    • However, I do think that Eich left voluntarily. Yes, there was "pressure," but so what? Dealing with extraordinary and even irrational pressures is part of what being a CEO is all about. It's not a regular job in any way. He could've have stayed, fought back, explained his contribution, explained how it would have had nothing to do with how he ran Mozilla, how his views had changed, how his views had been misportrayed or misunderstood, etc. A fighting spirit is key to running a company, so if you're not going to fight for what you believe, well...

    He was NOT fired, and any attempt to slide in that analogy is inaccurate, AFAIK. You can't legitimately argue from here to other cases in which people were fired and genuinely deprived of their living based on beliefs. Here's the write-up from Wiki:

    On March 24, 2014, Eich was promoted to CEO of Mozilla Corporation.[11] His appointment sparked controversy over a $1,000 political donation Eich had made in 2008 to the campaign for California Proposition 8, which sought to make same-sex marriage unconstitutional in California.[12]This revelation had previously been made two years prior, in March 2012, and provoked some criticism at the time in social media, particularly Twitter.[12] After his appointment to CEO, the controversy reemerged. In the ensuing public debate, some LGBT activists called for a boycott of the company.[13]A number of Mozilla employees asked him to step down, while others spoke out on their blogs in his favor.[14][15] Three of Mozilla Corporation's five directors resigned following Eich's appointment,[16][17] which the Mozilla Foundation attributed to "a variety of reasons. Two of the board members had been planning to leave for some time, one since January and one explicitly at the end of the CEO search, regardless of the person selected."[18] On April 3, 2014, Eich stepped down as CEO and resigned from working at Mozilla.[19][20] In his personal blog, Eich posted that "under the present circumstances, I cannot be an effective leader."[21][22]

    So PP is right: The donation took place a long time ago, but it had ALSO been known for a long time. It caused some stir initially, but only emerged as a big deal when he was appointed CEO.

    IOW, folks tolerated it as long as Eich was not the public face of Mozilla. Once he was raised to that level, folks had a hard time with Mozilla being associated with the anti-equality cause.

    As others have pointed out, being a CEO is not the same as being a regular, even a high-ranking, employee. Getting fired from CEO-dom (even though he was not fired) isn't the same as getting fired from a lower-level job, and performing as a CEO isn't the same as performing as a member of the rank and file, even upper management. There's power, prestige and a public duty.

    At a practical level--and maybe this shouldn't count, but I offer it here as grist--fired CEOs tend to land on their feet. Even more so, when they leave voluntarily. They aren't like lower-level employees living from paycheck to paycheck. And someone of Eich's enormous accomplishment isn't likely to go begging. When a lower-level employee gets sacked or pressured to leave because of his beliefs or other legitimate expressions, he has a hard time paying his mortgage, putting food on the table, and so on. People at Eich's level tend not to have these sorts of survival challenges.

    Finally, Internet companies, I would wager, aren't like "old line" companies that make grease or tires. They sort of need to be seen as progressive and cutting edge in the eyes of their customers and employees. At the forefront of "change," however you want to define that. There's an idealism in these companies that you won't find in "old economy" companies like Bridgestone. Having a figurehead with avowed retrograde views is probably not the smartest business move, internally or externally.

    It may even be a bit like an NBA owner publicly privately expressing racist views when 76% of the players in the league are black and 46% of the head coaches are. Perhaps Sterling or, as I like to call him, Tokowitz, had the right to tell his girlfriend whatever he wanted about whomever he wanted. He wasn't breaking a law. He had a "right" to his own views, even awful ones, especially expressed in private, but I'm a tiny bit surprised he has a team left. A real shanda.

     


    Reality check:

    Thank's to the Conservative Long War on Labor, today almost every worker in almost every job in almost every state is an "at-will" employee who may be canned by the boss for almost any reason, or no reason at all: [A]n employer may terminate its employees at will, for any or no reason ... the employer may act peremptorily, arbitrarily, or inconsistently, without providing specific protections such as prior warning, fair procedures, objective evaluation, or preferential reassignment ... The mere existence of an employment relationship affords no expectation, protectable by law, that employment will continue, or will end only on certain conditions, unless the parties have actually adopted such terms.

    The Eich or Sterling cases provide fodder and distraction for endless arguments on blogs like this, or 24/7 infotainment 'news', but they have no affect whatsoever 'at the factory gate' for the average worker, who can get:

    ...sacked for being too unattractive for the new boss's tastes.  For having too must melanin.  For being dangerously competent.  For being too honest.  Too old.  Because the boss's drinking buddy or mistress doesn't like you.  For having the wrong last name.  For having the bad luck of not knowing an alderman who owes you a favor.  Because the boss needed to make a soft place for one of his pals to land when he got laid off from some other division.....link.


    Ouch, I've been that guy who got sidelined when the prez needed a slot for his buddy.

    Do we encourage this, meekly accept it, or try to promote standards?


    Right. I definitely understand and appreciate your argument that we are not them, and that progressives shouldn't play by the two wrongs make a right mentality. If it's not right, it's not right, even if regressives use the tactic themselves.

    I think an appropriate analogy is: how would I feel if the CEO of Chick-Fil-A was pressured to resign because he had donated money to Planned Parenthood? It's actually a good question, and I can't say I honestly know the answer.

    Edit to add: In thinking about it just a little, I think that I would be sad, but I would only be mad if he had been fired, and not merely pressured to resign. I know you think these things are the same, but to me they're not.


    I agree with you and your link, except...

    Sometimes cases like this can spur discussions that broaden out to include more cases.

    When you clarify a principle, it can have a deeper and broader impact.

    (I could, for example, imagine Eich thinking twice the next time he's tempted to fire an employee "at will" for such and such a reason. I could also imagine him becoming bitter and resentful and thinking that others shouldn't get consideration he never got.)

    This is NOT the same as crying for the rich and famous...

    If you want to discuss "at will," then that's fine, but I don't think it negates the value of this discussion.

     


    "I find I have conflicting feelings and views and can't get a clear bead on what I think about this."

    Same here. What bothers me most about this specific case is that it is just the latest in a trend toward what are basically witch hunts of current politically incorrect thoughts even though Eich's are not really known, just assumed by a single action.

    Persecuting people for thought crimes is way down the slippery slope toward a society I do not want to live in. It is bad enough when it happens spontaneously but when interest groups and the media intentionally incite mobs to further their causes and draw attention, I feel compelled to object to their behavior whether or not I agree or disagree with the target of their wrath.

    And then there is the question of 'rights'. Well, there are all sorts of rights but some are more fundamental than others. This case seems to weigh Eich's right to a free conscience against a trendy theory of a right to marry. In my mind, it is no contest. Freedom of conscience trumps just about all others.

     


    Yes, thought policing is no good, but in this case, it's more than just a thought, no?

    It's political action designed to preserve the illegality of someone else doing something of which society approves highly in most other cases.

    Gays getting married is trendy, but getting married isn't.

    When you think about it, it is a group of people saying, "We no longer want to live outside of society's deepest traditions in a state of nebulous, underground connections. We want to participate in one of society's oldest, most revered, and most conservative traditions."

    Conservatives should be in favor of this. Instead, they are saying, "We prefer these people to live in a netherworld where their lives and relationships are neither seen nor heard and are only part of the larger community in an ill-defined, tenuous way even though we are related to them in all kinds of very intimate ways."


    "Gays getting married is trendy, but getting married isn't." - of course it is. As Andrew Sullivan noted, it wasn't even much of a topic of dreams for gays 10 years ago, while for straights marriage has been in a long decline - "the marriage rate [in 2013] has dropped to a new low of 31.1, meaning there are about 31 marriages in the U.S. for every 1,000 unmarried women, researchers found. In 1950, that number was 90.2."

    "We want to participate in one of society's oldest, most revered, and most conservative traditions." - great, and so you're saying they canceled Leather Day in the Tenderloin to show how conservative they've become? Or they're talking about mixing non-conservative beliefs with a conservative tradition, which of course isn't very conservative.


    This is just dripping with irony. Elsewhere on this post you rightly complain about people painting Islam with the brush of its most extreme members, and then you post this stuff. I doubt you'll even recognize how inconsistent you're being.


    It's just my memory of 1 day in the Tenderloin, along with various gay bars & just observing American culture. Were the Village People "extreme"? Wasn't Mapplethorpe a well-respected artist, whether his series on fisting or other controversial topics or his more mainstream work? Are you telling me that the AIDS epidemic didn't happen with a background of extreme promiscuity and heavy drug use, that I'm just painting gay culture badly because of a few bad different apples? Am I making things up that these are standard pictures of Gay Pride days around the world, that these folks are really trying to communicate "hey, we're just like you, conservative and wanna get married, just get me to the church on time"?


    What is your point?

    A shunned subculture frequently develops rituals, norms, music, etc., that is at odds or is very different from the mainstream culture.

    The people in that subculture do what they do and do what they can do and are allowed to do.

    Had gay people been allowed to marry all these many years, maybe they would have. But they didn't have a choice.

    Gay Pride Day is an expression of pride in what this group HAS done, and that includes what they've been ALLOWED to do.


    I'm not saying those people didn't exist, any more than you would deny the existence of extreme radical Muslims. I will say that I've known many homosexuals in my life (I used to teach ballroom dance back in the day, and was the only straight male instructor for a while), and none of them wore leather outfits, at least not in public. (I have met a few drag queens, but can't say I've known any personally.)

    What I am asking for is some of that vaunted liberal consistency that you seem to be advocating. Let's treat homosexuals with some respect, and not imagine that they all "look alike".


    You taught ballroom???

    Wow. I was a fanatic for a while.

    My teacher, an Estonian, even got me to compete...once.

    I only really bombed in the...wait for it...swing. I also banged into her knees during the waltz, but, pro that she was, she pulled us out of the ditch and "I" won.

    I was excellent at cha-cha and tango and foxtrot and pretty good at waltz.

    Really, really liked it, but it was a bit of a racket.

    Then moved into Argentine tango with great passion. Susan and I did it, but we ended up fighting a lot over the usual--who was doing what to whom--and we decided that our marriage was more important than dancing and might not survive it.

    However...

    We.will.be.back!

    Peracles's name is George?


    I think it's a cartoon ref, "which way did he go, George, which way did he go?"


    Actually, I was referring to George Bush's tendency to confuse Iraq and Afghanistan, but it was a joke, as I was not suggesting you actually are Bush.


    Yeah, back in the late '80s, I taught ballroom dance as a way to help pay for college. Note that they were desperate for male dance instructors. I'm not claiming that I was all that good.


    "Gays getting married is trendy, but getting married isn't." - of course it is. As Andrew Sullivan noted, it wasn't even much of a topic of dreams for gays 10 years ago, while for straights marriage has been in a long decline - "the marriage rate [in 2013] has dropped to a new low of 31.1, meaning there are about 31 marriages in the U.S. for every 1,000 unmarried women, researchers found. In 1950, that number was 90.2."

    PS: Like I said, gays getting married is trendy...if you like...but getting married isn't. Or, if you like, "people getting married isn't."  I agree with Andrew Sullivan here, although I think "trendy" is a dismissive word and not really the one to use.

    If anything, your stats show that NOT getting married is "trendy." However, your long decline, despite the way that sounds, is a slow decline, which also means that getting married is a "sticky" phenomenon. People tend to keep doing it and part with it slowly.

    Of course, if society values the state of matrimony for all kinds of reasons, which we have for a long time, and it deserves respect because, as you've noted elsewhere, our parents and grandparents believed in it and so did their parents' parents back to Year Dot, then we should welcome with open arms a whole new group of people who have never done it and now want to do it. Could do a bit to reverse the trend.

    The leather culture is a subset of gay culture so, as VA points out below, you've now taken up the broad brush of generalization.

    That said, if you or society find this subset of gay culture icky, then a good argument could be made that more extreme behaviors tend to self-cultivate in situations in which "ordinary" or more public expressions of affection and bonding are denied. Where public bonding is denied, bondage grows. Maybe. Who knows? I'm pretty sure that leather culture didn't create or provoke the ban on gay marriage, so...

    Of course, there will always be subcultures which reject society's norms, etc., and that's probably healthy overall. So I'm not sure what all these pictures prove or add to whatever argument you're trying to make.

    Not sure how moved I am by the "trendy" argument, either. There seems to be a thought that when the push for a right is relatively new, the right should be given less weight somehow. It's trendy, and not too serious.

    The problem with this, IMO, is that all struggles for change involve people acting differently from the way they did before...and, often, did for a very long time. And it's very likely that during that "very long time," most people thought things would always be the way they'd always been.

    Some chafe under the weight of dreams deferred or denied, others, most people I'd wager, bend to the weight and live as though things will always be that way. No use thinking about something, or pining for something, you know you'll never have.

    A small example: During the years I was poor, I never thought about buying a car or a house or even new clothing. I didn't plan for it; I didn't work for it; I put it out of mind.

    I remember hearing Dan Savage on the radio talking about the kid he and his partner had adopted. DJ was his name. Being a parent was something new for him, and something he never expected to experience. He'd come to expect that being a father was just not in the cards for a gay person. So it wasn't just that he was a "new father," he had to rethink the parameters of his life because it now included a status, fatherhood as a possibility, he never thought it would include.

    But the newness of fatherhood or being able to sit in the front of the bus doesn't mean that the underlying right is "trendy" or lacking in weight or seriousness. Just the opposite.


    Pointing to the numbers of people who do X, whether declining or increasing, isn't an important fact here.

    For example...

    It's a good bet that all of the women who are NOT getting married would complain bitterly if the law denied them that option. No way to test this, but I think it's a good bet. Freedom means, in part, having options.

    There are a number of black people who voted for the first time ever in 2008. While it might not have been a smart thing not to vote all those years, their right to do so didn't disappear during that time.

    So it's hard for me to see what declining or increasing numbers mean in the context of this discussion. VA can speak to the math here better than I, but the number of gay people getting married since it's been legalized in various states has increased 100%. That was true from the very first marriage, and it's only gone up since then.

    So, if increasing numbers matter, then maybe gays should be the ones allowed and straights denied the right until they start appreciating the freedom to...or something.


    "No way to test this, but I think it's a good bet." - I'd say unjustified.

    You contend the shrinking numbers don't matter, then oops, the increasing numbers do!

    "but the number of gay people getting married since it's been legalized in various states has increased 100%" - uh, no, by definition it's increased by infinite %, since no gays got legally married before it was legal - X/0 = infinity

    And it's well-documented that percentage increase over rare events is often much much higher that increases on common events. Try getting 50% iPhone growth now that the market is saturated.

    And you seem to miss that marriage is still important to many religious people - but their opinion never matters - ban marriage for religious straights along with non-religious straights because non-religious straights don't care? then force gay marriage onto their definition? wonder how else we can infuriate or humiliate them...


    "No way to test this, but I think it's a good bet." - I'd say unjustified.

    PS: I guarantee that if it were suddenly announced that no single woman could get married, there would be rivers of women protesting in the streets of D.C.

    You contend the shrinking numbers don't matter, then oops, the increasing numbers do!

    PS: No, just pointing out that IF, as you DO, think that increasing numbers matter, then there are ways and ways to look at numbers. Just going the extra mile to work through your thesis.

    "but the number of gay people getting married since it's been legalized in various states has increased 100%" - uh, no, by definition it's increased by infinite %, since no gays got legally married before it was legal - X/0 = infinity

    PS: So much the worse for your argument, then.

    And it's well-documented that percentage increase over rare events is often much much higher that increases on common events. Try getting 50% iPhone growth now that the market is saturated.

    PS: Then that must mean there are still a WHOLE LOT OF women getting married. A "common event." At least one, perhaps, for every iPhone?

    And you seem to miss that marriage is still important to many religious people - but their opinion never matters - ban marriage for religious straights along with non-religious straights because non-religious straights don't care? then force gay marriage onto their definition? wonder how else we can infuriate or humiliate them...

    PS: Simply doing a thought experiment based on your assertion that decreasing or increasing numbers matter. I said upfront that they do not. As you know, I've been arguing for gays and straights getting married IF they want to. You've been arguing that the former getting married is a trendy, suspect phenomenon that shouldn't be taken seriously because some people dress up as women. Or something.

    Just to jump to a different subculture that evolved in shunned separation...I'm sure that the great blues guitarists and early jazz masters set standards for technique that wouldn't have passed muster at the great conservatories in Europe. Gillespie's ballooned out cheeks? A big no-no for most trumpet players.

     


    "However, your long decline, despite the way that sounds, is a slow decline," - I don't think dropping from 80 per 1000 in 1970 (90 per 1000 in 1960) to 30 per 1000 today is a particularly slow decline, but we can argue about this ad nauseum.

    "then we should welcome with open arms a whole new group of people who have never done it and now want to do it" - so let's welcome child marriage, bigamy, polyamory, etc. if the only criteria is "the more the marrier" (sic).

    Look, I'm sure for some it's a great thing of a lifetime, for others it's a trend, for some religious folks it's fine, for others it's an affront, etc.

    But you guys act like I invented say leather fetishes when much of gay self-promotion has been imagery like this, not of "hey, we're 2 policy wonks in DC who have to get to sleep early because we work ridiculous hours on the Hill" and other possible messages. And then it's my fault if supposedly they want to change image (do they?) to be the boring conservative duo downstairs just waiting to exchange rings?

    If you're going to talk to me about adoption, I'm not for amyl-hacking gay night prowlers or drunk coke-snorting straight meat-club hoppers adopting kids. I'm not concerned about gay scoutmasters, but I'm not going to send my kids off with irresponsible perve partiers for camping of whatever persuasion, just like I wouldn't send them to meet Ted Nugent or other asshole backstage. So what image are they presenting? Or am I supposed to pretend that nothing ever matters, you can't tell a greasy dick by sight, trust everybody, people are all the same?


    "However, your long decline, despite the way that sounds, is a slow decline," - I don't think dropping from 80 per 1000 in 1970 (90 per 1000 in 1960) to 30 per 1000 today is a particularly slow decline, but we can argue about this ad nauseum.

    PS: Well, if it's still a "common event" as you assert elsewhere, how fast could it be?

    "then we should welcome with open arms a whole new group of people who have never done it and now want to do it" - so let's welcome child marriage, bigamy, polyamory, etc. if the only criteria is "the more the marrier" (sic).

    PS: As I've said elsewhere, we may evolve in this way. Who knows? But dropping one barrier doesn't commit you to dropping all barriers. Importantly here, society has evolved into an acceptance of the rightness of gay marriage. It hasn't simply been dropped on society by SCOTUS. There were gays who tried to, as it were, "auto-marry" back in the 1970s and perhaps before--but it didn't take.

    Look, I'm sure for some it's a great thing of a lifetime, for others it's a trend, for some religious folks it's fine, for others it's an affront, etc.

    PS: Yes, just as for straights. But when you've lived a good long while within certain parameters, it can also take a while to readjust. IOW, a straight guy deciding he's finally ready to get married doesn't go through the same process as a gay guy deciding he's finally ready to get married. For the former, it's always been a legal option; for the latter, it's been out of the question, legally.

    But you guys act like I invented say leather fetishes when much of gay self-promotion has been imagery like this, not of "hey, we're 2 policy wonks in DC who have to get to sleep early because we work ridiculous hours on the Hill" and other possible messages. And then it's my fault if supposedly they want to change image (do they?) to be the boring conservative duo downstairs just waiting to exchange rings?

    PS: No one has suggested that (you really think we are?). However, I'd wager that most gay people are not leather fetishists or drag queens. But you know, most parades involve people dressing up in costume that they don't wear every day-:) But to take you seriously for a moment, plenty of gay people have presented themselves as ordinary folks. Barney Frank wore a suit and tie. Steve Clemons is as straight arrow as you can get. Frank Bruni or Andrew Sullivan don't strike me as flamers--do they to you? But beyond this, it's a little hard for any group of people to corral all its members and get them to toe the party line as promulgated by a leadership.

    If you're going to talk to me about adoption, I'm not for amyl-hacking gay night prowlers or drunk coke-snorting straight meat-club hoppers adopting kids. I'm not concerned about gay scoutmasters, but I'm not going to send my kids off with irresponsible perve partiers for camping of whatever persuasion, just like I wouldn't send them to meet Ted Nugent or other asshole backstage. So what image are they presenting? Or am I supposed to pretend that nothing ever matters, you can't tell a greasy dick by sight, trust everybody, people are all the same?

    PS: As I understand it, ALL couples who want to adopt are "inspected" to ensure they lead an appropriate life style and are likely to provide a good home for the child. Heck, they even do that with pet adoptions. But the Boy Scouts is a good recent example. If the BSA aren't going to allow gay scoutmasters, then how are gay people supposed to portray themselves as scoutmasters? And so on.

     


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