Orlando's picture

    Societies Fail: We Might Have to Get Over It

    By Orlando on Wed, 09/01/2010 - 11:27am | Politics

     

    We know that environmental disasters have led to the downfall of civilizations. We know that, in other cases, it is greed and largess that has tipped the scales. Some societies have fallen victim to outside invaders or disease; others simply disappear, leaving no easily-followed clues as to their demise. I suspect those that crumble under their own stupidity are difficult to document, historically speaking.

    As I transition from active participant in the U.S. political system to spectator (and absentee voter), I am struck by just how ridiculous the current situation has become; and it makes me wonder: How many other societies have been crushed by idiocy?

    Looking around the world today, religion is as powerful a societal driver as ever. Culture wars have gone global. While there are still important domestic skirmishes over abortion rights and gay marriage, they have been largely replaced all-out religious hostility. Christians hate Muslims, and probably Jews. Muslims hate Christians and Jews. Jews might not hate anybody, but the government of Israel sure does make it difficult.

    In the midst of all this religious antipathy, in the United States, the economy is still in the tank, Republicans are reaping the mixed blessings of courting voters WAY outside the mainstream; and Democrats have yet to discover an effective—and fortitudinous—way to counter misinformation and downright absurdity.

    It’s enough to make a girl cranky.

    And though it’s true that looking around the world today it appears that humanity might be doomed, I have to wonder. This past July, I had the great privilege to visit Cambodia. I’d never been anywhere old before. Or, more to the point, I’d never been anywhere that tangible evidence still existed thousands of years after the owners and operators of that tangible evidence died. Around the village of Siem Reap, they left behind awesome physical reminders that an ancient society not only once existed there, but absolutely thrived. Where did the great civilization of Angkor Wat go? I don’t know, just as I don’t know where the residents of Machu Picchu went. And, just as I don’t know where the residents of societies I’ve never even heard of went.

    But there is one thing I do know. As civilizations decline, others rise to assume their places. I believe in climate science, so much so that it seems ludicrous to have to include that statement as a caveat. However, I also believe in the resiliency of the human species. And while I’m coming around to the belief that the United States as a great experiment in Democracy is totally and completely fucking doomed, I’m also beginning to believe that ultimately it doesn’t matter. People will continue to band together in new and amazing ways. And as a species, we will, in all probability, continue to thrive.

     

    Topics: 
    Politics

    Comments

    In his novel Galapagos, Kurt Vonnegut created a future in which genus homo survived as a less sapient but furrier and happier aquatic creature. I love swimming, but ...

    I think the species will survive, but I worry about the interregnum as billions of people try to survive without the energy surplus of fossil fuels. We're already seeing Russians drinking themselves to death, displaced Pakistanis being largely ignored, Mexico losing to the drug cartels and white Americans falling for the same old shtick from the Tea Party.


    by Donal on Wed, 09/01/2010 - 11:50am

    Absolutely. On a micro level, it's enough to make you want to put your head in the oven. But on the macro level, I guess my point is that the important thing is the survival of the species.


    by Orlando on Wed, 09/01/2010 - 11:53am

    Wondering aloud: what are some of the reasons why the survival of the species matters to us?


    by worthlesscitizen (not verified) on Wed, 09/01/2010 - 12:03pm

    That's an interesting question. I suppose that it might partly be attributed to some sort of evolutionary and instinctual drive. But another part of it is probably an arrogant assumption that we matter in the universe. Then again, that could also be instinct.

    by Orlando on Wed, 09/01/2010 - 12:21pm

    Well, I matter to me!  And to a few friends and some family, I imagine.


    by Austin Train on Wed, 09/01/2010 - 1:30pm

    I've thought about your question. For me, I think the main reason is pride, or at least a desire to feel pride.  Proud of what I have left behind for our and other peoples' children and for posterity.  Proud to be a member of a species that is admirable, enlightened, worthy of survival.

    Part of what goes along with my current intellectual and moral crisis or mini-crisis or whatever the hell it is that has me feeling so cranky, depressed and emotionally spent these days, is feeling less proud than I think I have ever felt in what we as Americans and we as humans are doing with and about our collective fortunes, and to our planet, these days.

    Because we know, we know, what we need to do.  And we could do it.  We just aren't doing it. There is no single reason.  No single person is entirely at fault.  We just aren't getting it done.  We are not adapting in the ways we need to adapt.

    I can't do any better than that right now.  It's a good question.


    by AmericanDreamer on Sat, 09/04/2010 - 3:17pm

    I wonder whether it's even that important for human beings to survive, so maybe we can argue about it!

    Seriously though, when I try to take the broadest possible perspective it's hard for me to justify why it's necessary or even good for human beings to survive in their current form.  Sure, I am a human being and I have a desire to survive, but that's just the politics of self-interest.  The universe is big - really big - and its machinery apparently includes the makings of this thing we call life.  Life as we know it might currently seem to be restricted to this planet, but there may very well be life like ours elsewhere in the universe or even forms of life that are completely beyond our imagination.  There might be (and likely are) other aspects of the universal machinery that we don't have concepts or names for.

    I have a good friend who used to be very engaged with politics, but has gotten increasingly disillusioned to the point of not even bothering to vote anymore.  Recently, we were having a discussion where he expressed the desire for humanity to be able to leave this sphere and venture forth into the galaxy.  Many have had such a dream, but part of his was that he wanted to be able to escape this planet and go where there aren't so many frustrating a juvenile people running around screwing everything up.

    Well, I've seen the enemy and it's me.  Do I really want humanity exporting itself, in all its horrific behavior, beyond the third stone from the sun?  Do I really want the Tea Party to go inter-galactic?  I'm not sure that I do.  If I was part of some other civilization out there, I'm not sure I'd want that either.

    Is it good for humanity to survive?  Maybe, but it's all about perspective.  Sure, it's easy to say that from the human perspective, but when I try as hard as I can to take the broader view it's very difficult for me to justify that human beings in their current form survive indefinitely as an end unto itself.  Why should it be so?

    In fact, I think that I rather dislike the idea of human beings surviving in their current form in perpetuity.  Don't get me wrong - I'm not making a plea for mass extinction.  What I'd rather see is evolution.  More cerebral cortex and less limbic system.  Thankfully, this universe seems not at all content to leave things as they are.


    by DF on Wed, 09/01/2010 - 12:27pm

    I kinda suspect the Tea Party was created by those intergalactic entities just to make sure we never joine them.


    by Atheist (not verified) on Wed, 09/01/2010 - 2:06pm

    An extra-terrestrial scheme to consume us in our own idiocy before we can invent warp drive?  I think you're on to something.


    by DF on Wed, 09/01/2010 - 3:02pm

    To make the planet ininhabitable by any humans would take awhile, although we seem to be making rapid progress on that.  Scientist Robert Zubrin has been arguing for colonizing Mars, going back a few decades now, and was able to persuade some in the scientific community and in NASA of its doability given not too much lead time. 

    If we get hit by a rogue asteroid the size of Rhode Island this afternoon, it's possible, I suppose, that literally none of us would survive, although I don't even think that is the case.  Some few humans with access to underground cocoons that can sustain human life for a time surely would survive, and begin planning to do what they needed to survive longer-term, including leave the planet if need be.


    by AmericanDreamer on Thu, 09/02/2010 - 2:01pm

    A fellow Zubrin fan! (presumably)


    by Atheist (not verified) on Thu, 09/02/2010 - 2:07pm

    Let's back up a little bit. Yes, agreed, the once-mighty U.S. empire is in a serious downward spiral. But the decline of that empire in no way equates with the fall of civilization. Not even western civilization. Much less the extinction of mankind as a species. Some perspective, please.

    In the long run, however, I do agree with DF. It is in Earth's interest to restore itself by wiping out all humans. Luckily for the planet, we are proving very co-operative. I see us as the yeasts that consume the grape's sugars and excrete wine. Unfortunately, alcohol at high levels (12 per cent or so) is toxic to the yeast, which literally drowns in its own poop.

    That's the trade-off the yeast (and we humans) seem to have chosen: a brief moment of exponential growth and intoxicating self-indulgence, then death. Interestingly, unlike the unthinking yeast, we can actually foresee our fate, and could (COULD) act to change it. We won't, though. The wine is just too tasty.


    by acanuck on Wed, 09/01/2010 - 3:32pm

    I would love to see you write the back label for a bottle of "America - The Wine."  I'm tempted to say that it would necessarily be white and would have a fair amount of residual sugar, but that makes it sound German.


    by DF on Wed, 09/01/2010 - 3:39pm

    America -- the Wine? That would be a Zinfandel. All things to all drinkers, coming in a range of colors, styles, and prices. Adaptable, plentiful and hardy, but insecure about its true nature and identity. Like America, no?

    But I didn't intend to single out Americans as the planet's fungi. All humans seem to be playing their part in trying to kill the ecosystem that nurtures us. Earth is wisely fighting back, though we hardly need a helping hand in defeating ourselves. I've written before that I think global warming is the fever that an organism naturally produces when it's fighting a disease. We're the disease.

    But that's true only on the large scale. Here in front of my computer, I'm chatting with you across invisible wires, listening to the hum of my A/C, and sipping a nice Bourgogne Aligoté. And feeling quite content (not guilty at all) about my place in the universe. Contradictions. For better or worse, that's how we humans roll.


    by acanuck on Thu, 09/02/2010 - 1:30am

    Interestingly enough, California's Zinfandel vines have recently been genetically traced to Croatia.  So, Zin is also an immigrant.


    by DF on Thu, 09/02/2010 - 2:28pm

    Okay, fine. So I might have conflated civilization and society. But the fact remains that societies come and go and we have, for the most part, very little idea of the reasons behind those failures. I'm postulating that people just got stupid or lazy, or both.


    by Orlando on Thu, 09/02/2010 - 2:32am

    Actually, your post did make a clear distinction between the fate of the U.S. as an experiment in democracy and that of mankind as a species. And you're right, human beings are resilient; we'll somehow get through peak oil, global warming, the resulting global drought, and probably the next batch of totally pointless wars.

    At the cost of untold suffering by billions of us. Serves us right, in a way, for creating billions of us, without asking the planet what she thought about the idea.

    That societies and their leaders get stupider and lazier as they collapse is a fair assumption. I don't know if that's cause or effect. In Rome, we now blame lead water pipes; maybe we should pay more attention to the amount of lead in the children's toys and baby formula we import from China.

    Or maybe old Toynbee had it right: great societies, like individual humans, have a natural life cycle. When the resources are at hand, they are born and grow; when depleted, they die. The details vary, but so far there are no exceptions.


    by acanuck on Thu, 09/02/2010 - 12:55pm

    If neither of you have checked it out and are interested in further reading on the subject, Jared Diamond's Collapse is an attempt at doing at comparative study of the societal faillure (his main points are outlined neatly here if you just want to take a quick look at what he found in common between his cases).


    by DF on Thu, 09/02/2010 - 1:34pm

    I did read it. I thought Guns, Germs and Steel was a bit more readable. But both are solid reads.


    by acanuck on Thu, 09/02/2010 - 2:26pm

    I used the word read at least one time too many. Sorry.


    by acanuck on Thu, 09/02/2010 - 2:27pm

    Guns, Germs and Steel was a great read.


    by DF on Thu, 09/02/2010 - 2:38pm

    Also, I just wanted to be clear that I'm not arguing that it's in Earth's interest to wipe us all out.  That's way too anthropomorphic for me.  What I do think is this: I see why, from the human perspective, you would want humans to stick around.  However, when I try to take myself outside of that, which admittedly might be an impossible task, I'm not sure that we're special or necessary.

    We know only some of the history of one planet in the universe, but from what little we do know we have found that species come and go.  We're just one more species.  Sure, we seem exceptional to ourselves right now, but how would that look to us if we had the perspective of the next 13 or 14 billion years?  Will the universe even last that long?  Will there be a Big Crunch that reverses the Big Bang?  We don't know.

    To connect that with some of the recent discussion here RE: Objectivism, that's the chief problem I have with Rand's philosophy.  She casts human beings as inherently noble and heroic.  It's a philosophy that encourages each of us to see ourselves as the protagonist of our own story.  I think that based on what we know, limited as it is, that's an exceedingly narrow and narcissistic view, even for a human being.


    by DF on Thu, 09/02/2010 - 3:04pm

    Sure, we seem exceptional to ourselves right now

    I'm reminded of a comedian's (I don't remember which one) joke: I used to think my brain was the most important organ in my body until I realized who was telling me that…


    by Atheist (not verified) on Thu, 09/02/2010 - 3:13pm

    "The Brain? That's my second favorite organ!"


    by Donal on Thu, 09/02/2010 - 3:27pm

    Woody Allen, I think. (No disrespect to DF.)

    It's from Sleeper.

     

    EDIT: I see now that DF was identifying the earlier bit, not the one Donal quotes. My apologies, DF.


    by Doctor Cleveland on Thu, 09/02/2010 - 4:48pm

    Emo Phillips.


    by DF on Thu, 09/02/2010 - 3:45pm

    Scientists have recently unearthed a press statement by Mother Earth on her alleged human infestation:

    Do you puny things really think I give a crap about what goes on up there? I'm a frickin' heavenly body. You'll be extinct before you even know what hit you.


    by Michael Wolraich on Thu, 09/02/2010 - 4:25pm

    Since we're quoting comedians now, I'll go with George Carlin:

    "The planet is fine. We're fucked."


    by Doctor Cleveland on Thu, 09/02/2010 - 4:51pm

    Right.  Which is actually a more compelling narrative than "save the planet" because it appeals to our inherent self-interest.  It's not the planet that needs saving.  It's not even "our children and our children's children" at this point.  People need to get concerned about saving their own sweet asses.


    by DF on Thu, 09/02/2010 - 5:13pm

    Exactly, DF. We've put ourselves and a bunch of other species at risk, but the planet will outlast us all and be just fine. Until, of course, the expanding sun finally fries it to a smoking ember. Not much we humans can do about that part.


    by acanuck on Thu, 09/02/2010 - 6:15pm

    Yep.  Earth is a just a wet (for now) rock.  It's not even capable of caring about whether we flourish or perish.  I agree with you that it's really a matter of the peculiar question of what a species does with the foresight of such risk to its own survival.


    by DF on Thu, 09/02/2010 - 6:26pm

    We're so screwed.

    by Orlando on Thu, 09/02/2010 - 8:02pm

    Our son worries about the expanding sun.  He is 12.  I try to explain to him that that's a long, long, long time into the future and by the time earth is going to be destroyed by the sun we will have had plenty of time to prepare and try to find another home.

    I don't add the most obvious major qualifier, "if we humans are still around just before then".  He worries enough about this matter as it is, and not enough about things he can and needs to do something about in the nearer term.


    by AmericanDreamer on Fri, 09/03/2010 - 5:22pm

    I used to worry about that when I was a kid as well. I understood that it was a long time away, but I think I didn't have any sense of my own mortality at that point, so even a hundred years from "now" was a meaningless marker.

    by Orlando on Sat, 09/04/2010 - 1:12pm

    Orlando:

    I just finished reading The Ivory Gate by Margaret Drabble, a novel set primarily in Cambodia, in which the story shifts in time and place between present day observations of various fictionalized journalists in England, Thailand and Cambodia, to factual and speculative flashback historical references to Cambodia through time. If you haven't read it, I hope you will, while you are where you are.

    Can American "civilization" be done without? Sadly, I think so. Our own country has become so skewed in favor of corporate and/or military/industrial profit goals that we have become a clear and present danger to the well-being of the globe.

    Our enemies are not external; our enemy is within. So, if we are unwilling to contain ourselves, to reform from within, then we will have to suffer a demise as a country we caused ourselves. 

    Communism failed. Our American Democracy has failed. The good news? Maybe now another country can lead the way toward a Socialism that is geared to the common good.


    by wws on Wed, 09/22/2010 - 8:48am

    Latest Comments