Donal's picture

    Failed States, Vigilantism, Open Carry

     
    El Diario de Juárez, having lost another journalist to a retaliatory slaying by the drug cartels, released an issue with a direct question to the cartels (Translation):

    To the leaders of the different organizations that are fighting for control of Ciudad Juarez: The loss of two reporters from this publishing house in less than two years represents an irreparable breakdown for all of us who work here, and, in particular, for their families.

    We’re aware that we are communicators, not fortune-tellers. Therefore, as workers in information we want you to explain to us what it is that you want from us, what it is that you expect us to publish or not to publish, so that we know what to expect.

    All of you are, at this moment, the defacto authorities in this city, because the legally instituted authorities have not been able to do anything to stop our colleagues from continuing to die, although we have repeatedly called for them to act.

    That is why, faced with these indisputable facts, we’re writing to you to ask, because the last thing we want is for another one of our colleagues to again be the victim of your shootings.


    Do we now call Mexico a failed state? Although they do not admit to surrender, the editors and management realize that ultimately it is these grim-faced men, who will send other men to shoot and kill anyone that gets in their way, that are in a position to make the rules - not the Mexican government, not the Mexican police.

    Some US citizens also feel less-than-protected by the police. Over at The Truth About Guns, Robert Farago criticized as irresponsible an armed homeowner that used his firearms to stop would-be burglars from robbing his neighbor's house. Farago takes the position that owning private firearms is strictly for the defense of the lives of yourself and your family, not for inserting yourself into situations for which you are not trained, meaning Vigilantism.

    The homeowner and his friends responded in the comment section, feeling that defense of property is warranted and that defense of your neighbors and their property is well, just being neighborly. One called Farago a "cop-worshipping statist" and most rejected arguments in favor of letting the police handle crime prevention. The police did arrive fairly promptly, but that may have been because they were aware that firearms were in play.

    I have a hard time being a complete statist here. I've watched enough John Wayne, and John Adams, to be sympathetic to the idea that neighbors supporting each other is a good thing. I also think organized groups are inherently stronger than individuals. On the other hand , no one made it clear as to who would support the man's family should he be killed while being neighborly, or should he shoot the wrong person and go to prison. If we are to the point where your armed neighbors are the best line of defense, haven't we also taken a step backwards from the rule of law, like Mexico?

    Wisconsin Carry made the news last week when several of their members were arrested for carrying weapons openly, and legally, after dining peacefully in a restaurant. Another patron called police, who arrived in force and demanded identification from all the men. Two of the armed men refused, claiming that they were not required to produce ID simply because they were carrying a weapon. They were arrested for their refusal, but those charges were reviewed and dropped. But the "Wisconsin Five" as a group have now been charged with disorderly conduct, though it seems clear that they did nothing provocative. I think the police have handed Wisconsin Carry a strong case, and they are now raising funds for a lawsuit.

    I would certainly have no problem if all Open Carry guys did was eat dinner, but there are a whole range of issues to consider, from bringing your sidearm into Denny's, which has a policy against, to bringing it into a classroom, or into the office, or into the bank.

    Comments

    If I saw someone walk into a Denny's with a open sidearm I would gather my little group of family and get the hell out of Dodge.   The gun carrying nuts need to know that people don't trust them anymore then the criminals.  I don't want their protection or their weapons near me and my family.   


    You got that right momoe.


    The display of power over others is what is most prominent about the open carrying of a weapon. There is something obscene about such displays.

    The notion that a state have a monopoly on the use of force to maintain order is not only an issue of rights and justice but concerns the aesthetics of living in a society of equals.

    From the point of view of the culture of equality, either nobody displays a power to kill instantly or everybody does.


    The problem is that you are not an expert with firearms, and don't carry your own. There's nothing to fear about citizens exercising open carry rights. You should be concerned any time you see a thug covered in tats and baggy jeans, because he most likely has an illegal  pistol on his person. Leave Denny's when you see that kind of thug walk in. Or, just reach down and feel that beautiful cold steel on your hip, and drill that thug when he gets excited. That's what guns are for, is killing thugs and drug dealers and their ilk.


    Another Marshal Dillon.


    I grew up with guns and have always liked them.  I have friends from back home who have concealed carry licenses and they carry.  They're friends, I trust them and everything's of course been fine. 

     

    The law where I'm from is that you need a license to carry a concealed gun, but you can carry in public so long as it's visible.  It's a frontier style law.  It might even be a frontier law that just never got changed for all I know.  When I used to be a cashier at this video/book/music store called Hastings this real bumpkin of a guy with his bumpkin family used to come into the story daily and the guy would always have a shoulder holstered 9 millimeter on him and every time he'd come to my register he'd saying something like, "I'll bet you're glad I'm here in case something bad happens."

    I was not.  Not at all.  Somehow this dude didn't understand that it'd be safer for the rest of us, should some one walk in with a gun to rob the place (as actually happened once) if we went ahead and gave away the money, rather than get caught in the middle of a shoot out between customers.  Heck, in all likelihood (as happened) the thief would get caught and the cops would return the money.  If not... the store has insurance!

    But, of course, this was mostly about a guy who liked to walk around flaunting his gun.  Because some guys do.  And that really ruins it for the rest of us.


    The Wisconsin Carry law and this incident piss me off.

    You can carry weapons of mass destruction on your person and the cops do not have the right to ask for id as well as a license.

    Bullshit.

    THIS GUN CRAP HAS GOT TO STOP.

    Don't they realize the type of destruction can be done by five guys carrying guns in a denny's?

    This is beyond the absurd.

    Didn't anyone of the people see Pulp Fiction?

     


    The only thing more destructive?  Yep.  The food at Denny's.


    Yeah they didn't get robbed due to having a gun?


    Vigilantism and the movies - for some strange reason, people who demand they exercise their right to bear arms because of the Constitution and the history of the United States never realize back in the cowboy dazes, the telephone was non-existant and the local sheriff and deputies didn't make house calls in a state furnished vehilce to make sure folks outside of town were safe from bad guys. One had to protect one's property interest with a gun and hope neighbors would come to their rescue. While the rest of us have matured as the country moved from rural to urban environments, there are some out there who still think we're fighting bandits, indians and claim jumpers, and need to arm up and be prepared to do the job law enforcement is neglecting. Some how our educational system has failed to make a dent in their thick skulls.


    In live in Las Vegas.  I open carry into casinos, banks, bars, shops, restaurants, everywhere.  No one runs screaming.  The police are never been called on me.  A group of us (about 20-30) have been on the Las Vegas Strip several times and routinely meet at the Fremont Street Experience.  There's no bigger mixing pot than the strip, with tourists from all over the world walking around drunk 24 hours a day, and yet police find no reason to harass a bunch of law abiding citizens minding their own business.  If a casino with a billion dollars cash in the basement doesn't care about my gun, why all the concern about some fast food joint?

    I've been stopped once, and after a 25 minute detention, police sent me on my way with my loaded gun right back where it should be, in my holster.  My complaint regarding the incident led to a retraining of the whole department without the need for trumped up criminal charges or a follow up lawsuit.


    Holster? My crew walks around with our Colts pointing them at people.


    As you can tell from the comments on these pages, the anti-gunners consider their fellow citizens to be the same as criminals just for carrying guns or incompotent idiots with a vigilante complex. They feed their own fears with these "what if" concocted stories. Being part of the open carry crowd, we do not sit around thinking of ways to band together and cause shootouts. When we carry, our weapons stay holstered while in public unless there is a threat to public safety. We do not carry to scare anyone but these same people who are screaming about open carriers have nothing to say about concealed carriers because they don't see the guns. Open carriers allow the guns to be seen instead of concealing them and this causes the hoplophobes to scream bloody murder. They see a gun and they don't see a badge so it must be wrong, illegal and that scares people.


    While your anecdotes about open carry probably represent most gun owners, I cited a real example of a gun owner crossing the line from self-defense to self-appointed lawman, with a lot of other folk chiming in to applaud him.

    With all due respect, I have to wonder if the mere fact that you choose to openly carry a gun makes you the person I want defending public safety. In some rural or range situations, I can certainly see that, but in city and suburban life I have to ask whether you are qualified to deputize yourself in an emergency.


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