The Bishop and the Butterfly: Murder, Politics, and the End of the Jazz Age
    jollyroger's picture

    Terms of use?

    By jollyroger on Sun, 01/16/2011 - 8:30pm |

    Like the theme song to Monk asks:

    "Hey, who's in charge here"

    In the last few days I've had two posts tampered with.

    Both, (quelle surprise!) involved interaction with our local version of Pat Robertson, yclept Resistance.

    In one, a "moderator/dagblogger" signing himself d (I think it was Donal, but could have been Destor) changed an expletive "fucking troll" to farging troll, gently reproved me for my tone, and "signed" the editorial intervention with a "d" (less than dispositive...)

    In another, Ramona ( I think--apologies to her if I'm wrong) simply changed my post, and gave rise to confusion in Mageduley, and who knows who else.  There was no indication after she had come and gone that the post now bearing my name bore no resemblance to the original, nor that any change had been made.

    I search in vain for any "terms of use" setting forth either strictures on the use of foul language (more or less my stock in trade...) or strong invective.

    Soit.  We can make it up on the fly as we go.

    That said, may we not hope for some consistent policy governing moderation of posts by whoever happens to be around from the dagbloggers?

    And maybe a tutorial for them would be in order--I noted an exchange between Ramona and Destor where she lamented the utter expungement of a post committed, apparantly, by accident.

    Comments

    Holy cow, Jolly, really??  You called someone a "nut" and I removed it. Then you did it again.  We're trying to keep it civil here, and, while arguments go on hot and heavy without interference, I thought that went too far.  My call alone, but yes, there are TOS:

    http://dagblog.com/terms-use


    by Ramona on Sun, 01/16/2011 - 8:46pm

    Thanks for the link...I'm sure the stricture against vulgar and obscene are going to give me shpilkes..incidentally, how is it that I couldn't find them on my own?  Is there a secret spot on the web site as presented that I'm not seeing?


    by jollyroger on Sun, 01/16/2011 - 8:55pm

    Never mind...just scrolled down to the very bottom and, whattay'know there they are...

    I still think some consistent and clear way of marking moderators' interventions should be enunciated.


    by jollyroger on Sun, 01/16/2011 - 8:57pm

    There is a search box at top right.  I typed in Terms of Service and found it.  Boy, I sure screwed up that attempt at moderating, huh?  Hope I don't have to do it again! :)


    by Ramona on Sun, 01/16/2011 - 9:04pm

    I put brackets around substantial edits, with my initial, because I've seen it done that way in books and letters to the editor.


    by Donal on Sun, 01/16/2011 - 9:11pm

    Yes, I should have made it much clearer. Thanks, Donal.

    by Ramona on Sun, 01/16/2011 - 9:27pm

    To Ramona

    If I in anyway, showed any disrespect to the position you hold as moderator, I sincerely apologize. 

    You pointed out where I may have misunderstood a comment you made to me. I should have accepted you at face value.

    After napping, I got up to remove another reply to you, in order to erase it  because of a second thought., but I was too late, you had already posted, so I  let it stand. In retrospect I wish I could have rescinded the snark.Embarassed

    Please accept my apology,


    by Resistance on Sun, 01/16/2011 - 9:34pm

    Apology accepted, Resistance.


    by Ramona on Sun, 01/16/2011 - 9:53pm

    Lucky for you the ToS doesn't circumscribe the use of archaic words, of which you seem to know a great many. Perhaps greater usage of such obscure, but descriptive, wording will keep your comments intact.

    I was one of the confused and lost ones in Glass Houses. But now I'm found again. Praise the goddesses.


    by seashell on Sun, 01/16/2011 - 8:59pm

    archaic words

    No doubt including the dirty little secret, surely unknown to my Sainted Mother, that the given name she bestowed in innocent emulation of one Rodger Young, subject of a Burl Ives song playing on the radio during her "confinement" (as they used to call it) is, in fact, in Old English, a verb.

    Wouldn't you know it, she named me "Fuck" .

    After that, what's a fella to do?


    by jollyroger on Sun, 01/16/2011 - 9:15pm

    You RASCAL! I see trouble ahead...

    by Ramona on Sun, 01/16/2011 - 9:24pm

    Trouble ahead, trouble behind...


    by jollyroger on Sun, 01/16/2011 - 9:29pm

    Serendipitously, this is he first time I've ever actulally seen a picture of my namesake.  This mild mannered, bespectacled, dare I say it, nerd, is a medal of honor winner who did the suicide bomber thing on two japanese machine gun nests, grenade in either hand, pins out, full tilt boogie til they blew.

    Go figure...


    by jollyroger on Sun, 01/16/2011 - 11:30pm

    My opinion is that there are more interesting things to do at dag than feed or start a flame war with someone you consider a troll. For one thing, it makes both of you look trollish.


    by Donal on Sun, 01/16/2011 - 9:18pm

    more interesting things to do

     

    Without peradventure--I should have been tipped off by the need to manually unlock my jaws after typing the phrase "Answer the question, etc, etc."

    That's why in court we have the more genteel, "Objection, not responsive,  move to strike..."


    by jollyroger on Sun, 01/16/2011 - 9:26pm

    I have been guilty of this.

    The process is like a virus that spreads through the antibodies rushing to the scene of an infection.  I hope the condition doesn't spread to fill the entire space.


    by moat on Mon, 01/17/2011 - 7:46am

    Ooh, mo' meta!

    My general feeling is that moderation should only as a last resort involve the kind of deletion or modification of comments that Donal/Destor and Ramona are engaging in. I prefer Genghis and A-man's usual policy of letting heated exchanges run for a bit, issuing a warning, and then if it continues unabated shutting down the thread with a polite but firm and clear comment at the bottom. Changing comments - from my standpoint as a reader/commenter - feels much more like an excessive violation. It should only be used in very extreme cases. And it is as Ramona says sometimes 'clumsy': D's intervention changing 'fucking' to 'farging' seems to miss the point. It's being called a troll that's offensive. Not the expletive qualification. Ramona's other intervention just confused me as well.

    As an aside, fwiw, judging from the last couple of threads only (I may be missing some history), I tentatively sense that you all - Jolly, Ramona, et al - are a bit hard on Resistance, and overly sensitive to clearly unintentional offences. I.e. the escalation - needling, baiting - is coming from your side. Not his. Indeed, as you Jolly suggested, he on the one side and some of us on the other clearly speak in languages foreign to each other - something that requires a certain principle of charity in one's reading and a principle of generosity in responding. R has been around here and TPM for so long that calling him a troll strikes me as pretty out of line. However odd some of his opinions are. Just thought I'd throw my POV out there...

    That said, censoring uses of Fuck or Nut in general is in my mind utterly ridiculous. Censoring JR, given his background and the context of the exchanges, is in my mind just fucking nutty. All this I say with the love, generosity, and goodwill that the President now requires of us...

    ;0P


    by Obey on Sun, 01/16/2011 - 10:04pm

    calling him a troll strikes me as pretty out of line

    This is certainly true, in the classic definition--I don't think him insincere (the poor fellow...) in his offerings and they are not intended   to disrupt, albeit they are tediously inapposite and, by now, surely manifestly ineffective in advancing any conceivable forensic objective.


    by jollyroger on Sun, 01/16/2011 - 10:43pm

    surely manifestly ineffective in advancing any conceivable forensic objective.

    My comments and your responses to them, did have a forensic value. Barths post proved Barths point   

    Excerpts from Glass Houses

    "It is of course, very easy to talk about what others, who do not agree with oneself, should do or say. …….. This space has found it quite incredible when people calling themselves progressives or liberal begin to froth at the mouth at some of the silliest "provocations" 

    STOP USING SCRIPTURES, WE HATE THAT !

    "When those of us old enough to have seen this exact same story unfold over and over again, with little difference, ……."

    Not only seen, but heard and experienced

    The story of an innocent man, whose only crime was telling others about a solution to the problems of his day, the good news found in a book. and for this he was murdered. 

    "As President Kennedy told us almost exactly fifty years ago, though, whether we move forward as a nation depends on us,

    By all appearances you and a few others missed the forensic evidence. to busy attacking me, telling others you were right and I was wrong. Had this been a real face to face encounter I could see your side, resorting to violence to shut me up.  

    We aren't moving forward.,.. were in a pit. 


    by Resistance on Sun, 01/16/2011 - 11:20pm

    Obey, I appreciate your comments, and agree with much of what you say, but as "clumsy" as my moderating attempt might have been, I don't think anyone should be called a "nut", no matter who makes the comment.  If I read you right, we're supposed to allow Jolly to express himself in that way because he's. . .Jolly.

    As near as I can tell, my removal of that one sentence is the only moderation taking place around here in many days. I don't see an overabundance of censoring, nor will we see a chilling effect because of it.

    What I would like to see is some respect given to the people who post here. They build an idea and put it out there for us to comment on, and then so often have to sit back and watch as the thread turns into a shouting match or a pissing contest over something that has nothing to do with the original content. I consider that much more egregious than what we're talking about here.


    by Ramona on Sun, 01/16/2011 - 11:01pm

    "Somewhere a streetcorner is missing a preacher" would have done as well...


    by jollyroger on Sun, 01/16/2011 - 11:20pm

    That should have been your call, not mine.

    by Ramona on Sun, 01/16/2011 - 11:32pm

    Sometimes the right turn of phrase doesn't present itself til several hours after the party is over...


    by jollyroger on Sun, 01/16/2011 - 11:37pm

    Somewhere on a blog, is a person with disgusting lewd language and hateful and injurious speech?

    Whose only excuse is; “that's just who I am, look at my profile”.  

    While they  ignore the evidence, the Killing in Tucson provided.

    They don't want to hear, our society is sick. They don't  want us to tell them, they don’t want it preached to them, they just want to talk dirty


    by Resistance on Sun, 01/16/2011 - 11:50pm

     Remember, like the Wizard of Oz said to me when I raised an eyebrow:

    "Pimp" is just haterese for impressario..Sol Hurok- a pimp.Diaghalev, Pimpasaurus...."


    by jollyroger on Mon, 01/17/2011 - 12:00am

    I just tried to edit my prior comment, but you posted

    I was just going to leave it at, I see no excuse for bad conduct.

    Your an intelligent person, one can see that., I just don't understand why you have to be disgraceful to make a point.

    Good bye  


    by Resistance on Mon, 01/17/2011 - 12:06am

    ".....over something that has nothing to do with the original content."

    Somewhat OT, I suppose, but I think a lot would be lost if commenters felt a strict obligation to stay strictly on topic and not let a conversation go where it will.


    by A Guy Called LULU on Sun, 01/16/2011 - 11:20pm

    You missed the first part of that sentence.  I don't have a problem with a little OT, but as I said, when it turns into a shouting match or a pissing contest, there is no value to the thread anymore.  That's unfair to the original poster.


    by Ramona on Sun, 01/16/2011 - 11:31pm

    Somewhat OT

    What could be off topic in a meta posting about moderation?  Anyway, I'm the original gangs--er poster, so I get to say what is and what is not on topic, and I say it's on topic...

     


    by jollyroger on Sun, 01/16/2011 - 11:36pm

    Somewhat OT to a half of one sentence in Ramona's micro-topic within the meta.


    by A Guy Called LULU on Sun, 01/16/2011 - 11:42pm

    I like a guy who can deconstruct with hypergranularity....


    by jollyroger on Sun, 01/16/2011 - 11:53pm

    Is it fair if I use a thesaurus, or is that a subject for another blog?


    by A Guy Called LULU on Mon, 01/17/2011 - 12:01am

    a thesaurus

    Sure, they named it after me....


    by jollyroger on Mon, 01/17/2011 - 12:12am

    It's a smallish world, they named the thesusurrus after me.


    by A Guy Called LULU on Mon, 01/17/2011 - 12:22am

    thesusurrus

    I thought The Susurrus was a Dr. Seuss character...


    by jollyroger on Mon, 01/17/2011 - 12:31am

    Yeh, there was that one alright. We had a bad falling out 'cause named him "junior".


    by A Guy Called LULU on Mon, 01/17/2011 - 12:39am

    The Susurrus is one of us

    Now everyone makes fun of us

    They make a chicken bun of us

    And say its very dumb of us

     

    (Not one of the good Doctor's best efforts, I'd say...)


    by jollyroger on Mon, 01/17/2011 - 1:04am

    Well, my point about Jolly was related to the idea that censorship (as opposed to shutting down a thread) should be a last option for a moderator. And knowing Jolly as you and I do from past interaction, I'd be very surprised if a clear warning - on-thread or off - weren't enough.


    by Obey on Mon, 01/17/2011 - 10:37am

    Jolly, Ramona, et al - are a bit hard on Resistance

    I would tend to agree. However, he is also a big boy who can take care of himself. Just saying so that others know everyone's definition of troll is not the same. And actually, if it were my website, I might ask him to try to stop at the 6th or 7th reply. A site that's a workshop for one person trying refinements of his argument against one other person ad infinitum isn't of much interest to me, unless they kept it to one thread (fwhere those who like mud wrestling rematches without end could visit.)

    Related to your other comments I would only like to say that I think the currently in vogue method of moderation practiced by Disquis and HuffPo and the like, of just deleting comments, isn't of much use at all except in cases of some repeat offender that everyone knows is a problem. If moderators don't leave the entire readership an idea of what was considered unacceptable, they are just spinning their wheels.


    by artappraiser on Mon, 01/17/2011 - 3:54pm

    mud wrestling rematches

    Ahh, yess, mud wrestling.  I am put in mind of a member of the Sweet Little Mud Pies, a ladies' wrestling troupe from Alaska, yess, with whom I had a delightful encounter while on a continuing education weekend in Reno....How good of you to trip that set of neurons.


    by jollyroger on Mon, 01/17/2011 - 4:06pm

    Where's the fish? They told me there would be fish, you know.

    Dammit.


    by quinn esq on Sun, 01/16/2011 - 11:57pm

    It's upsteam, better hurry it's beginning to smell like rotting fish  


    by Resistance on Mon, 01/17/2011 - 12:08am

    How about Free Beer and Chicken?


    by jollyroger on Mon, 01/17/2011 - 12:08am

    The world's about to be destroyed
    There's no point getting all annoyed
    Lie back and let the planet dissolve

    So long, so long and thanks for all the fish

    "Six by nine. Forty two.
    That's it. That's all there is.
    I always thought something was fundamentally wrong with the universe."

    :-)


    by seashell on Mon, 01/17/2011 - 3:40pm

    seashell I am curious

    what is the meaning of six by nine. forty two


    by Resistance on Mon, 01/17/2011 - 3:55pm

    It's from the HHGttG. The answer to the question to life, the universe, and everything is 42. The question is finally revealed (in one version of the story) to be "what is 6 x 9?" (And yes, we know…)


    by Atheist (not verified) on Mon, 01/17/2011 - 3:56pm

    Well... just to clarify Atheist's accurate but somewhat obscure reply ... :-)

    HHGttG is The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, a science fiction series written by Doug Adams.  42 is the Ultimate Answer to the Ultimate Question of Life, The Universe, and Everything that the supercomputer, named Deep Thought, spit out after 7.5 millions years. (Note that we don't know what the Ultimate Question is till later).

     


    by seashell on Mon, 01/17/2011 - 4:57pm

    Thanks I am glad it wasn't something simple and I was to stupid to see it


    by Resistance on Mon, 01/17/2011 - 5:09pm

    Ramona, if you will recall our conversation (8:43 am timestamp) from a few days ago on Wattree's blog when I spoke of the pendulum swinging too far over into censorship?  This situation is what I meant. 

    Right now there is a heightened sensitivity to expression because of the event in Tucson.  Many are trying to do better at conversatin' but it will take time and genuine effort to get better at it and while dagblog's ToS says it can do anything it wishes with comments or blogs as to deleting or altering them, doing so in a cavalier fashion may result in some trust issues.   

    Over compensating will not make us heal faster.


    by wabby on Mon, 01/17/2011 - 12:13am

    How do we heal, if the cancer is still present? Just askin  


    by Resistance on Mon, 01/17/2011 - 12:18am

    The tragedy in Tucson was not cancer.  Just sayin'.


    by wabby on Mon, 01/17/2011 - 12:26am

    Didn't you already say "goodbye"?  Why are you still here?


    by jollyroger on Mon, 01/17/2011 - 12:33am

    Well I can certainly say that we will not heal with this type of thing going on.

    Westboro Baptist Church to protest at 9 year old's funeral

    You don't see secular groups protesting at children's funerals. Just saying.....


    by mageduley on Mon, 01/17/2011 - 1:27am

    Fanning the flames of prejudice?


    by Resistance on Mon, 01/17/2011 - 6:39am

    D.I.S. Dagblog Immune System  

    Upstream, Moat made a good analogy. I could see the terms of use, as the immune system, preventing the spread of cancer cells overwhelming the good cells. So that the body can have a chance to survive, and doesn’t begin the decay process. Long live dagblog  

    Very creative Moat 


    by Resistance on Mon, 01/17/2011 - 8:08am

    "In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move." - Douglas Adams


    by Donal on Mon, 01/17/2011 - 10:18am

    Speaking of common books…


    by Atheist (not verified) on Mon, 01/17/2011 - 10:21am

    Donal, you are so funny?


    by Resistance on Mon, 01/17/2011 - 10:27am

    That the creation of the Universe resulted from a compromise deal between liberals and conservatives is expected to have far flung implications in the next election as both sides try to implicate the other as the reason for the the current negative consequences that have resulted.


    by Elusive Trope on Mon, 01/17/2011 - 11:59am

    I think we're getting to the point of repetition here,where further discussion doesn't add any more substance (but does increase the hurt feelings on various sides).

    I'm going to give this thread another hour or two and then lock it. Consider this an opportunity to end the conversation on a positive and graceful note.


    by Doctor Cleveland on Mon, 01/17/2011 - 2:55pm

    42.

    :-)


    by seashell on Mon, 01/17/2011 - 3:55pm

     

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rn6w255CGkk

     


    by Richard Day on Mon, 01/17/2011 - 4:11pm

    Let's see if this gets in under the wire. I've spent more than a quarter-century editing other people's copy, and the best advice I can give any editor/moderator/ administrator is to think at least three, four times before altering anyone else's words. You can best encourage respect for others by showing respect for others.


    by acanuck on Mon, 01/17/2011 - 4:12pm