The Bishop and the Butterfly: Murder, Politics, and the End of the Jazz Age

    The Trump "sex tape"

    By Flavius on Fri, 10/07/2016 - 11:55pm |

    Before we too enthusiastically condemn Trump's stupid remark let's be reasonably honest with ourselves. There are more than a few men, of both parties, who could have been taped at some time saying similar .

    Trump himself claims he heard Bill Clinton saying worse on the golf course. Could be.

    Certainly the number who actually "go the full Trump" must be smaller than the number of locker room lotharios who hint (or brag) about doing so. And although I and both my readers probably agree it's pretty likely Trump's part of that smaller number, we don't actually know that.

    Harold Wilson, questioned on the tarmac at Heathrow about the Christine Keeler​ affair (a 16 year old having sex with the British Defense Minister and the Soviet ambassador)  answered "no comment....in technicolor". Got him elected Prime Minister and probably saved Britain from helping us lose in Vietnam.

    Maybe we side-line warriors can indulge ourselves in being moralistic. But any dem candidate should assume that some time between now and Nov 8 an old tape will turn up of Bill-or Gore or Carter (not really!) saying something similar.

    Comments

    Flavius, that's okay.

    We are all hypocrites I guess.

    But damn!

    THE BIBLE IS THE GREATEST BOOK IN HISTORY AND MY BOOK IS SECOND.

    hahahahhahah

    This adulterer is exposed on tape.

    FUCK TRUMP

    Oh I guess I am mad.

    But


    by Richard Day on Sat, 10/08/2016 - 12:15am

    I'll admit that when I was in 7th grade I said and did things I'm embarrassed by today.


    by ocean-kat on Sat, 10/08/2016 - 12:27am

    When asked if there's anything he regrets, Burroughs answered "are you kidding? I try to get through one daywithout doing something I regret"


    by PeraclesPlease on Sat, 10/08/2016 - 2:37am

    You know, I think crap like that is just false humility. Or obfuscation. By such grandiose exaggeration maybe one can avoid the follow up question, what? I certainly have a long list of mistakes and failures from my life. More often the younger I was. But I easily go for weeks or even months without doing anything I regret. Don't you?

     


    by ocean-kat on Sat, 10/08/2016 - 2:51am

    I imagine shooting his wife to death playing William Tell or a lost decade or 2 as a junkie rank high. He said it more as self-deprecation (in his caustic way) - he's nothing of a model figure for children to look up to. But I get your point.


    by PeraclesPlease on Sat, 10/08/2016 - 5:48am

    Maybe other men are guilty of speaking this way, (I've heard similar crude language from Tucker Carlson) but considering the reaction from EVERYONE about this one, If this is what finally tanks Trump, I'll take it.


    by CVille Dem on Sat, 10/08/2016 - 8:13am

    I'm with you


    by Flavius on Sat, 10/08/2016 - 9:03am

    Typically it's over the top humor where you know someone's joking, or a huge ego problem. Kind of obvious here.


    by PeraclesPlease on Sat, 10/08/2016 - 9:56am

    The reason the comment took hold is that Trump called women pigs and popped off about punishing women who had abortion. The comment comes after he went full court press in criticizing a former Miss Universe. He suggested that there was a sex tape. This is Karma.

    Trump has also exposed many in the Christian Right to be hypocrites. They hate Bill Clinton but support Donald Trump. As long as they have direct access to power, moral issues are pushed to the side. It will be interesting to see how Mike Pence handles this.

    Edit to add:

    Sadly, the comment took hold because Trump was targeting white women. Miss Universe was not white, so Republicans remained silent. The Central Park Five are not white, so not pushback from the GOP against Trump. Nancy O'Dell is white and the GOP leadership has to defend her honor and the honor of white women. Christianist Evangelicals will fall in line with Trump because they want access to power. They also believe women are to be subservient. This was the group that told abused women that it was their Christian duty to stay with the abusive husband.


    by rmrd0000 on Sat, 10/08/2016 - 10:22am

    To be fair a diverse group of 75 evangelicals signed a petition criticizing Donald Trump. Trump's evangelical support is old white guys.

    http://www.latimes.com/nation/politics/trailguide/la-na-live-updates-tra...

    http://www.politico.com/story/2016/10/trump-evangelicals-letter-condemni...


    by rmrd0000 on Sat, 10/08/2016 - 11:39am

    I just finished watching Bill Maher from last night.

    He ended up showing a picture of a school teacher during his new rules segment and calling her ugly.

    But there was context to this statement. The blond haired white woman was fired from her teaching position for tweeting or emailing a statement that our First Lady was a baboon (or gorilla?) and noting that our First Lady needed a do-over.

    There are certainly issues involving political correctness and comedy with regard to all of this.

    I ask you to assume that it is 1952 and some Mayor is discussing philosophy with some friend and he mentions that there are good points with regard to the Soviet ideal relating to communism.

    Further assume that the Mayor does not know that his discussion is subject to an open microphone. Well the Mayor would immediately be called before the HUAC.

    But neither of these examples apply to Trump.

    Trump has been increasingly quoted over the last 30 years or so denigrating women.

    Trump has been consistently quoted as being an adulterer and a misogynist and there is much testimony about Trump's sexual advances and even assaults.

    But the real kick in the pants here involves Donald's hypocrisy.

    I love the Bible.

    These people should be in prison for raping and pillaging.

    yadayadayada.

    I certainly have written some bad sentences attempting to finish a paragraph in my thousands of blogs or comments over the years.

    I think of guys like Rush who must constantly speak fifteen hours a week over decades and one cannot speak continually fifteen hours a week for 30 years and not misspeak once in awhile.

    This teacher was fired for one tweet (evidently) and yet Rush felt compelled to speak about our First Lady's big butt over the last 8 years.

    Nobody fires Rush--even though he has certainly lost advertisers and radio outlets over the last five years or so.

    I do not like Rush or Trump or a host of others, for sure.

    But because of Trump's contradictory statements, because of Trump's constant obscenity, because of Trumps continual harrassment of powerless people and because of Trump's many other foibles, I find Donald repulsive and the single worst candidate for President I have ever witnessed.

    the end

     

     

     


    by Richard Day on Sat, 10/08/2016 - 12:19pm

    Flavius why don't you spend the next month searching for 'Bill-or Gore or Carter (not really!)  saying something similar' on video.

    Get back to us when you find it.  

    Not that in the unlikely event you did that it would make any difference, as none of them is on the ballot for President.


    by NCD on Sat, 10/08/2016 - 1:53pm

    No. I have no interest in uncovering the next Anthony Weiner or Gary Hart. Morality is not my thing, legislation is.

    Probably half the candidates for whom I 've handed out leaflets ,been a poll watcher or gone door to door  later turned up in the wrong  bed one morning  and I wasn't the least chagrined. They voted right


    by Flavius on Sun, 10/09/2016 - 7:15am

    Little bit of difference here, Flavius.  Weiner doesn't appear to be a predator.  He's some kind of exhibitionist.  Weird and scary perhaps, but ultimatimately, not a predator. 

     

    Gary Hart had an affair.  whoopee.  He probably had many.  more whoopee.  I don't recall anyone claiming he molested them without permission.

     

    Same with Bill.  For all the fooforaw, all the investigations, all the skullduggery, I don't recall assault or retaliatory coercion as part of the scenario.

     

    Trump?  Whole different scenario.

     

    Both sides DON'T do it.

     


    by Robert Farmer (not verified) on Sun, 10/09/2016 - 10:04am

    Juanita Broaddrick has accused Bill of rape, actually. I don't take her accusation at face value, but I don't rule it out either.

    That said, Bill isn't running for president in 2016.


    by Michael Wolraich on Sun, 10/09/2016 - 10:56am

    Ah, but Hillary gave her the secret society handshake and did the Vulcan mindmeld with her - that can intimidate anyone but Obama (who inherited Spock's ears and his skill in13-dimensional chess, even though Spock was Jewish and Obama is Muslim).


    by PeraclesPlease on Sun, 10/09/2016 - 2:51pm

    My default position is to believe the woman in cases like this. But at some point one has to make a decision. I look at this in a similar way I look at the Woody Allen accusations. Even more so with Bill. The allegations were looked at by competent prosecutorial investigations and found to not be credible. Granted, judicial investigations are not always credible so we have to ask ourselves, When are the investigations by the judicial system credible? Broaddrick was looked at a few times by very partisan republican prosecutors who wanted to do anything they could to get Clinton and even Ken Starr found her allegations not credible. For all Bill's sins, and there are many, I tend not to believe the rape accusation.


    by ocean-kat on Sun, 10/09/2016 - 4:29pm

    This is her most recent affidavit:

    http://www.anusha.com/janedoe5.htm

    Relevant quotes from her sworn testimony:

    3. I met President Clinton more than twenty years ago through family friends. Our introduction was not arranged or facilitated, in any way, by the Arkansas State Police. I have never been an Arkansas state employee or a federal employee. I have never discussed with Mr. Clinton the possibility of state or federal employment nor has he offered me any such position. I have had no further relations with him for the past (15) years.

    4. During the 1992 Presidential campaign there were unfounded rumors and stories circulated that Mr. Clinton had made unwelcome sexual advances toward me in the late seventies. Newspaper and tabloid reporters hounded me and my family, seeking corroboration of these tales. I repeatedly denied the allegations and requested that my family's privacy be respected. These allegations are untrue and I had hoped that they would no longer haunt me, or cause further disruption to my family.

     

    How can anyone keep whipping this dead mule?  

     


    by CVille Dem on Sun, 10/09/2016 - 5:50pm

    WTF??!!

     

    OK, Not only is this a dead mule to whom no mercy is being shown, I had no fuckin' idea that the woman herself had recanted!! (God knows, I have heard her name often enough from that braying back end of an ass Hannity).

     

    Thanks, Jan.

    ETA, apparently G. was equally misinformed, so I feel a little better.


    by jollyroger on Sun, 10/09/2016 - 6:35pm

    You've got it backwards, jolly. This testimony came before she went public with the accusation against Bill. She claimed to have perjured herself in the affidavit because she didn't want to be dragged through a trial.

    So not a great witness, obviously, and this is out of the statute of limitations in any case, so no trial. But I don't rule out the story entirely. I'm not going to argue the case, certainly not right now. My point in raising it was just to correct Robert Farmer's comment there were no allegations of coercion.

    In any case, I'm sure we'll hear more about her soon enough from the other braying back end of an ass who happens to be the Republican nominee. Buckle up.


    by Michael Wolraich on Sun, 10/09/2016 - 8:13pm

    I've been thinking about this blog and decided I needed to address it more fully. As I posted above I've said things I'm embarrassed by when I was in 7th grade. But I've never said or heard others say anything as offensive as this Trump tape. I'm not such a saint, again I've made my share of mistakes. Perhaps it's that I've never engaged in male bonding rituals. I'm so introverted that most of my life I've been outside the normal flow of society and culture. I spent my free time in high school in bed with a book in my hands. I wasn't the cliched "98 lb weakling" I was quite literally a 5' 4" 95 pound weakling when I graduated from high school. I never engaged in high school banter in the locker room because I wanted to get out of there as quickly as possible before one of the bigger boys decided I was fair game to slap around.

    So other men, those who actually were a part of male society, will have to elucidate me on how men act when they're hanging out together and chatting about women. Because I was always just too weird to hang out in all male groups talking about the women I had sex wth or wanted to have sex with. I simply wouldn't have been accepted in those groups even if I wanted to. The only time I've heard anything remotely like this was the few times I watched a video of Andrew Dice Clay.

    Is this type of talk really that common? Is it so common that Bill or Gore or even Carter talked like this with their male friends? How many of the men posting here have heard this type of "locker room banter?" How often? How many of you are willing to admit you played along?

    eta: “The idea that a straight male who clearly finds women sexually attractive disqualifies himself by making comments that most straight men have made in the company of other straight men is absurd when the husband of his opponent was impeached for having oral sex in the Oval Office,” added a Michigan Republican.

     Is that true? Is it the experience of the straight men here that most straight men have made or heard comments like this in the company of other straight men? It's not my experience but again, perhaps I'm just not normal enough to know how ordinary "trump talk" is.


    by ocean-kat on Sat, 10/08/2016 - 2:37pm

    It's not my experience. I don't know anyone who talks like this, nor would I tolerate it. Several years ago, a friend's father commented to me about some attractive woman who walked by, nothing even remotely close to what Trump said. Even that mild lecherousness creeped me out. I can't imagine sitting there listening to what Trump said.


    by Michael Wolraich on Sat, 10/08/2016 - 4:18pm

    For guys into the pickup scene it's normal - not that those are usually candidates for president. My bigger question is who would let themselves be recorded saying it? Especially one who's been through a few divorce settlements... that makes him "smart"?

    Then again, people wanted to change the Constitution to let Arnold Schwarzenegger run for Presdent, and people didn't seem to mind *his* groping bad-boy stuff. Overall, most people just aren't very consistent, and their morals are entirely a whim and easily played. At the moment it's going my way, so I'm content - can shift at any time. Folks who clutch pearls at the word "pussy" have no problem saying the rudest things to gays or minorities, taking away poor people's survival, bombing innocent people, backing sending soldiers into horribly useless wars, etc. Lots of folks thought that C*U*N*T t-shirt was a clever takedown of Hillary, somehow not realizing that once you open this avenue it turns ugly towards all women. And the current fuss isn't even about that - it's that Donald was talking about doing this to a respected high society lady, not a Hispanic immigrant or a Muslim or someone else who doesn't matter, or even Trump's daughter. The coin finally dropped that should any of the Republican women at the convention happen to be good-looking, Trump would be hitting on them.

    The "ick" factor just kicked in - rather belatedly.


    by PeraclesPlease on Sat, 10/08/2016 - 5:48pm

    It was thinking about Schwarzenegger that caused me to wonder if my experience was atypical. His groping had so little effect on the race. At the time I thought that maybe people just chalked it up to Hollywood. But with this blog I began to wonder if all male groups spent more of their time in crude talk about women than I've ever experienced.


    by ocean-kat on Sat, 10/08/2016 - 7:23pm

    Groping vs rude talk are two different things. Rude talk being humorous and rude talk being serious are 2 different things, and of course a big difference in whether girls/women can hear you. I have a friend who's torn or a dog about his marriage and infidelities, and I egg him on and we make jokes because that's his main motif. Most times would never discuss with guys, and certainly not with the same crudity. But then there's a whole world out there of group party time in Ibiza, hookup scene, guys going to strip clubs, sex in the stalls, etc that I'm not part of, and it's all much more carnivorous and in your face. Anyway, we are who we are. I just don't quite see it on a talk show, especially with no humor, just rich jackoff trying to be self-important.

    And of course this was nothing new - this woman had a lawsuit against Trump from the late 90's - entirely believable. The Republicans had every reason to walk away before - they just didn't do it. Now they own him - good luck with that.

    PS - I was taken aback by Maher's "whiny bitch" quip - can't he figure out the history of that phrase, and why it's not exactly funny in context?


    by PeraclesPlease on Sun, 10/09/2016 - 2:59am

    I have heard a lot of banter and have said crude things myself. I have known a number of "players" who don't want a real relationship but are only interested in a good time. I have and have had real relationships so I never talked like that.
    But even at its crudest, such conversations did not reach the level Trump has attained in this tape. I have never participated in the kind of glorification of power that is evident in the "grab them by the pussy remark."
    None of my many friends talk like that.


    by moat on Sat, 10/08/2016 - 5:51pm

    Never made (edited)such statements.   Did hear. In a single sex Catholic college.

    Sociologists surely have data on the subject. My  guess is that the single sex characteristic may be determining.

     Adolescent boys , contact with girls  limited to the stylized behavior of an occasional Saturday night date,  develop differently. At least for a while.

     


    by Flavius on Sun, 10/09/2016 - 9:14am

    Well it appears from this small sample that my experience is not so unusual as I might have supposed. Until I get more data for the moment I think I'll continue to enthusiastically condemn Trump's stupid remark.


    by ocean-kat on Sun, 10/09/2016 - 1:26am

    It wasn't a "stupid remark" - it was a lifetime of boorish comments and actual behavior. It is who he is, his half-assed apology aside. And if we think of the wolfpack, sure, you get delta males tittering along to be liked and part of the in-crowd, but Trump was born into alpha dog status - he is the leader on everything he does, and he does it repeatedly.


    by PeraclesPlease on Sun, 10/09/2016 - 3:04am

    I agree Peracles. It was a cut and paste and a reference to the first sentence of this blog. It should have been in quotes.


    by ocean-kat on Sun, 10/09/2016 - 4:10am

    Quote away.

    And if it secures  one additional  vote , great! Just be sure you  have your  fall- back position ready for when  Wikileaks or RNCleaks  or  Vlad the Impaler unearths an interesting photo of one of our really admirable candidates recovering   from the  campaign trail  by a few hours rest between the wrong sheets.

    And who's to say he or she shouldn't?

    In the "Screwtape Letters" one of the  apprentice  devils is all excited reporting to Satan he's manipulated matters so that his target will have an  illegitimate affair."You fool"  the big S  says. "Don't you realize  lust can turn into love".  


    by Flavius on Sun, 10/09/2016 - 8:03am

    I'm with De Niro ... and that was before the video.


    by barefooted on Sat, 10/08/2016 - 4:57pm

    I'll admit to having made tons of comments that I wouldn't want outed during an election.  I've always preferred getting a laugh to saying the right things and there's no such thing as victimless humor.  Weird thing about Trump's "locker room" explanation to me is that the "locker room" implies some sort of safe space where you can say whatever and... he was basically backstage at a TV show.  That is not a safe space. Everybody knows that.


    by Michael Maiello on Sat, 10/08/2016 - 8:43pm

    So where do you recommend going for a misogynist braggadocio fix? I've been looking for a good spot.


    by Michael Wolraich on Sun, 10/09/2016 - 11:04am

    The Starbucks over here doesnt carry it, but I suspect their competitor just might whip one up. & with it "grab your barista's Pastry" to go.


    by PeraclesPlease on Sun, 10/09/2016 - 2:45pm