The Bishop and the Butterfly: Murder, Politics, and the End of the Jazz Age

    Will Palin and the Tea Party Help the Democrats?

    Palin v Obama

    Several weeks ago in comments at Once Upon a Paradigm, I made a prediction about Sarah Palin.  I said that while it was clear she'd be a queen in the media, there was no way in hell the GOP would allow her to become a queen of the Republican party.

    Remind me not to go making predictions anymore.

    I'm beginning to think that the Republican party may not have any choice but to embrace the woman they really don't care for.  Why?  Because thanks to the Tea Party, and thanks to the angst (so clearly brought to light by Cmaukonen recently), the crazy Right is becoming a force to be reckoned with.

    The Tea Party is culling the GOP herd, targeting any Republican in Congress who has voted in a bipartisan manner with Dems, and they are widening their sights.  Watch out, Olympia...watch out, Collins.    Not even Bennett was conservative enough in the eyes of the Tea Party, as we all know.

    So, my first two questions to ponder are....how long will the GOP let this continue?  What are their options?

    Myself, I can only think that the GOP is going to cater to the whims of the Tea Party.  But if any of you have other thoughts in mind, please share them with me.

    Now, of course not all Republican voters are going to vote alongside the Tea Party.  Some of the mainstream Republicans (the ones I consider to be NOT crazy, NOT too conservative, NOT all Family Values, etc.) – like, um....my own family for instance – are more concerned with seeing bipartisan bills get passed, and are less concerned with conservative litmus tests.  Most of my family, for instance, can't fathom voting for Palin (although they did vote for McCain) and are currently stumped as to whom they WILL vote for in 2012.  Their hope is that someone will come along between now and then who is a) qualified and who b) makes sense.  So far, Palin doesn't hold up.

    So my next question is....If not Sarah, then who?  Who amongst the Republicans is going to come along between now and then?  My mother can't stand Romney and thinks Huckabee is a “nut” (her words, not mine) and even though everyone in my family finds Rubio to be interesting, none of them feel he's qualified to run in 2012.

    Over Thanksgiving, when I asked my mother and my sister who they thought might beat Obama in 2012, neither of them could come up with anyone.  They both pretty much agreed that it's going to be four more years for Obama.  This, of course, made ME feel great, but leaves them wondering who in hell is going to get the Republican nomination.

    According to Daily Beast, Sarah Palin has a 55% approval rating amongst Republican voters.  I have yet to see how Romney looks, up against her.  If any of you know of a potential candidate who has higher ratings than Ms. Palin, please let me know.

    Meantime, I've got a new prediction to make.  Yeah, yeah, I know I said I'd better not make anymore of them, but...Daily Beast agrees with me:

    "In the latest NBC/Wall Street Journal poll, 55 percent of Republicans approve of Palin, but only 9 percent of Democrats and 25 percent of independents. It is not difficult to imagine Palin winning the Republican nomination; it is harder to fathom how she wins a general election."

    My prediction is that the Tea Party is going to continue to push the GOP for the next two years further and further right.  Unless Romney finds a way to work around that, and work around Palin, and get the nomination, we're very likely to see Palin run in 2012.

    But...but!!  No, of course she won't win the General Election.  We all know there is no way in hell she'd win that.  Look at how her nomination as VP affected the Independents in 2008....they all went to Obama, didn't they?  Well, my prediction is that they will do the same damn thing in 2012.  And I predict a pretty good sized chunk of moderate/conservative voters (like my family) will sit it out.

    I'd like to hear your counter-theories and predictions, please.  In fact, as a former Republican who used to carry around a stuffed toy elephant named Nixon as a kid.....I'm all ears.  Hee.  From now on, less predicting, more ears.  I promise.

    (Cross-posted from Once Upon a Paradigm)

    Comments

    Geez can we trade families? Mine all loves them some Palin, went to the Beck rally, and everythin'.

    I think bad times will continue to drive the Tea Party, and Palin seems to have pushed her way to the front of that line.


    No way, honey.  I love my sensible family.  But, given the fact that Sarah Palin is indeed the queen of the mad Tea Party, where do you see the GOP going?  Will the GOP continue to allow the Tea Party to push their agenda, or will they buck, or.....?

     


    Depends. If things stay bad, the Tea Party alternative looks good. If things get better, both the Reps and Dems are positioned to take credit.


    I do think that the Tea Part is well positioned to change the face of the republican party for years to come. They are the culmination of years of frustration and I do not see them going away any time soon. In some ways they hearken back to the old school republican base before the neocons and hawks took over.


    I think that the election is so far away, that it's silly to make predictions.  If there's one ting we should have learned is that polling this early is silly, events often dictate choices in elections, there's a ton of money to be spent on lying about candidates and issues, and no matter who is elected, it's a class war we're in, not essentially a party war. 

    And if we don't start kicking back on that war, it won't matter.  We stil have two years under this President, many indicators that unemployment and foreclosures will be worse, and that there won't be any more job stimulus and projects.

    And unless Obama gets wise to smarter economics, we're screwed, then he's screwed in 2012.  Someone will capitalize on the anger and frustration agoinst the banks and the oligarchy, and unless some more radical lefties act as a counter-measure to kick Centrist/Rightist Dems rears into gear, things will not go well for Obama, IMO. 


    Wait....slow down.  Didn't you start this comment by saying it's too early for predictions??

     


    I'm going to go out on a limb and guess you knew I was answering your "if not Sarah, then who" question.  Your first question may never have an answer, only opinions.


    I'm all for opinions.  But as you also know, I love to hear people name names when they start discussing viable candidates.  But, again, you started out commenting that it's too soon for predictions and then ended by saying Obama is screwed.  I am missing the middle part.


    You don't read what's written. 


    Please explain that.  I didn't understand your second comment, so yes, I should've asked you to clarify it before shooting off a response from the hip.  Please clarify?


    I'd say you could read the subjunctive clauses re: Obama, and see they weren't predictions, they were opinions.  Not original, even.


    Oh, those! Oh well I read them once, yes.  But then realized I've read them before.  So I just sort of chose to overlook them and move on.

    Okay, Stardust.....let's start from scratch.  How do you feel that Palin may impact the GOP?  Where do you see that going?  Can we start from there?

     


    Okay, okay, you win.  I promised to be all ears.  So....fresh start (again).  Take the floor, madam.  Any time.

     


    They will show case Rubio so the Bush machine can run him 2016.   He will be on TV making lots of comments from the conservative play book and talking points.

    I am also hearing from my republican freinds that they may not vote for any of the current horses in the republican race.  I guess we will have to see who falls out of the crazy tree to run.


    Your friends must know my family, Momoe.  My sister is watching Rubio too, but agrees it would be too early for him to run in 2012.  She's thinking 2016, earliest.  As for 2012, she can't point at any Tea Partier nor GOP candidate currently in the prediction cycle who she can agree with.  My mother, who voted proudly for McCain and liked Palin at first, says she can't bring herself to vote for Palin if she ends up being the nominee.  In Mom's opinion, not only is Palin unfit, her voice is too grating to listen to for four years straight.  Tongue out


    Her voice gets to me too.  It is too middle school and whiny,   I do think that if the repubs keep pushing to the far right that it will make them unelectable.   Even if the economy don't improve, they may over play their hand.


    From your keyboard to Fate's ears, Momoe.  Amen.

     


    So her voice gets to you.  Thats the reason you don't like her.  Really?  That says a lot about you. 


    Hee, as if that was all, Mad.  As if. 


    I know it might be considered heresy, but I kinda like her voice, at least when she sticks to such pithy things as "you betcha". It's when she starts inserting her no-pinions that she starts grating on my nerves.


    Will even Joe Scarborough has had enough, as he opens his opinion piece at Politico

    Republicans have a problem. The most-talked-about figure in the GOP is a reality show star who cannot be elected. And yet the same leaders who fret that Sarah Palin could devastate their party in 2012 are too scared to say in public what they all complain about in private.

    Enough. It’s time for the GOP to man up.




    Ah, I guess it takes tarnishing the great Reagan and his Veep to do it, eh?  Thanks for this piece, Trope.

    Now tell me, where is the GOP gonna go in the next two years?


    I don't think they know where they are going.  That is why the only thing they are obsessed with is beating Obama.  It is the "party of nothing" but keeping the support of wealthy doners.  Not much room for creative thinking and new leadership.  Their economical idiology crashed several years ago and not much has changed for them.  That left a big hole for the angery right move in.  


    True that, Momoe.  So does this mean we wait and see how angry Angry can get?  Hmm...

     


    I do not see them embracing violence though as a whole. Regardless of Rush or Beck.  Certain faction maybe but that has been true of any organization. I do see them wanting to have more representation in DC though and are willing to challenge the powers that be anyway they can to get it. Look for more primary challenges to established republicans in the next election and more election litigation in close races. As well a nastier campaigns. 


    The question is whether someone can step in and be everything to the angry right populists and to the establishment right wing, like Reagan and W. did with the religious right and the establishment right wing.  Indiana Rep. Pence comes to mind as someone who might pull it off.  Of course someone like Indiana Governor Mitch Daniels can rally the independents and moderates into a coalition with the establishment wing to take the primaries in places like Iowa and New Hampshire.


    Ah.  Thank you.  See, I take the time to check out Indiana weather every day (for reasons of my own) but don't pay enough attention to the politics there.  Pence and Daniels.  I'll do some digging and then send some links to my family members and see if they know anything about them.  So far, otherwise, the names don't show up on the radar.  But as Daily Beast pointed out, Palin's been hogging the radar and hogging it well. 

    So, in your opinion, then, who would do better?  Someone who can do "angry" like Pence, or someone who will appeal to the more moderate crowd?

     


    I think because the primary season starts in places like Iowa and New Hampshire, someone like Daniels will be able to pull together the moderates and establishment Republicans.  There will be enough of these center/center-right folks who will then flock to the person they think will have the best chance to beat Obama.  The same train that Kerry rode to the Dem nomination in 2004. 

    If the first primaries were held in places like Kentucky and Louisanna, Palin might tsand a chance.


    Thanks.  I'll be reading up on Daniels, then, while I await my next book of fiction from Amazon.  And no, it's not Palin's new book, LOL...

     


    Historical Romances are the best at Xmas.  LOL 


    Romance, history, fantasy....I'm easy.  Just no Palin Fiction, thanks.  Wink  I will add that I've already read Blowing Smoke and am re-gifting it to my sister.  She needs its common sense more than I do.  (No plug intended)


    I think the romance is over. This couple needs counseling.


    Are you sure Daniels is planning a run? Last I heard, he said he wasn't running for anything else after his two terms as governor are up. Of course, he's a big fat liar, so I wouldn't be surprised to see him throw his hat into the ring. He's got that Bush populism schtick down pat too. If Daniels runs, Obama may be in trouble. If he wins, we're all in trouble. He's like Bush--my way or the highway--but with a brain and a nasty streak too. 

    I would say I think Pence is too stupid to win, but I thought that about another guy 10 years ago.

    Here's something I found interesting: my recollection of history is that the early frontrunner rarely wins the primary, unless it's the current VP (see: Clinton, Hillary), so I did some looking and found this:

    http://pewresearch.org/pubs/410/

    It basically shows that the Democrats are good at leaving their frontrunners behind but the Republicans stick with theirs. So, the Palin overkill may be a good strategy on her part. I waffle back and forth between really hoping she gets the nomination because I can't believe she would ever be elected and being terrified that she will get it because the electorate has a recent history of making some pretty colossal mistakes. Interesting that the end of the Mayan calendar falls just after the 2012 election.....coincidence?  


    Hmmm....interesting Pew link there, O.  I'd say it means that the Republicans don't change their minds easily enough. 

    As for the Mayan calendar...hmmm.  Interesting reminder there, O.  I'd say it means that if the Republicans don't change their minds easily enough, we'll all just disappear.

    Cool

     


    I'm not sure about either Daniels or Pence running, but I think they represent the two kinds of candidates that could take on Palin early on: the establishment Republican is who can appeal to the tea party folks and the establishment Republican who can appeal to the moderates.  Given where the economy is now and where it could be at best by the time people have to declare, I think a number of Republican hopefuls like these two know this may be their best shot in a long while. 

    For Pence especially it may represent his real last window of opportunity (if a Repub wins the WH, the next opportunity wouldn't come until 2020 at best). Moreover for someone like Pence and Daniels, they would make mighty fine VP material, definitely handing Indiana to the candidate and not hurting their chances in places like Ohio and Illinois.   Given Obama, the candidates won't have to battle each other for who could beat the other one up because they can battle each other over who can beat Obama and the Dems up the most.  The lack of bad blood will allow some of the stronger second-place finishers to be in position to be tapped for the VP position.

    And while Pence is not the sharpest tool in shed, he is in a political sense, as Homer said, "stupid like a fox." 


    It sould be fairly obvious by now Orlando that a large part of the electorate DO NOT vote with their heads rather they vote with their emotions. And those who make them feel good get the vote and those who don't...don't. As with used car salesman, politicians have to make their constituents feel good. About themselves and their concerns.


    I still think that the only way Palin could win the general election is if Mike Bloomberg makes a bad calculation and runs as a third party candidate, siphoning off just enough votes from Obama to allow Palin to slip in with 34% of the vote. Electorally it would be even uglier. 

    As for "If not Palin, who?"  Excuse me, but I have to hold my nose ... The semi-delusional Mike Pence? Egocentric Secessionist Gov. Rick Perry? That GOP budget idiot, Paul Ryan? (Okay, I'll stop now because it just goes downhill even faster from there.)


    Keep in mind that if no candidate gets the majority of electoral votes, the House gets to choose the winner:

    http://usgovinfo.about.com/od/usconstitution/a/amend12.htm

    That'd be interesting (and scary!) to see unfold. Even though it's majority Republican, surely (hopefully?) several of them would think twice before putting Palin in office!


    RE: "In the latest NBC/Wall Street Journal poll, 55 percent of Republicans approve of Palin, but only 9 percent of Democrats and 25 percent of independents.

    You should track down that poll and check out the exact question, because it doesn't necessarily mean they approve of her for president. It doesn't sync with this poll AT ALL:

    Looking Ahead to 2012

    When asked who they would most like to see nominated as the Republican Party’s candidate for President in 2012, roughly equal numbers choose Sarah Palin (15%), Mike Huckabee (15%) and Mitt Romney (13%).  Another 9% say they would like to see Ron Paul nominated, 6% Newt Gingrich, 4% Tim Pawlenty, 3% Haley Barbour, and 2% Rick Santorum.

    While Republicans are substantially more likely than Democrats or independents to pick a favored candidate at this point, the top names remain the same, with Palin (18% of Republicans), Huckabee (19%) and Romney (17%) leading the pack. The candidate preferences of Americans who agree with the Tea Party largely mirror the preferences of Republicans overall.

    Most Americans (56%) say they would like to see other Democratic candidates challenge Barack Obama for the Party’s nomination for president in 2012, while 38% say they would not.  This is substantially less support for an intra-party challenge than in December of 1994, when 76% said they would like to see a Democrat challenge Bill Clinton for the 1996 nomination. Democrats, in particular, have different feelings today compared with 1994.  Then, Democrats supported seeing someone challenge Clinton by a 66% to 30% margin.  Today, they oppose a challenge to Obama’s nomination by a 62% to 34% margin.

    from

    Pew Research Center for People and the Press
    November 11, 2010

    Mixed Reactions to Republican Midterm Win
    Public Less Happy Than After 2006 and 1994 Elections

    You should read the first three pages at least, as the report addresses a lot of your questions, especially on page 3 (Section 2: Views of the Parties, Prospects for Compromise) there are several questions and charts related to the Tea Party with break downs for Republicans, like  The Tea Party and GOP’s Future and Is Tea Party Separate from the Republican Party? There is also a lot about

     


    Lis,

    Here is a much better example of the point I was trying to make.

    In the CNN Poll on the next presidential election, done Oct. 27-30, 2010:

    http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2010/images/11/03/rel15d.pdf

    There on page 3-4, question 11, asked of all the respondents
    We'd like to get your overall opinion of some people in the news,
    Palin has a favorable opinion of 40%, Romney 36%, Huckabee 42%, Gingrich 32%

    BUT on page 5, question 20, asked of Republicans only
    which candidate would you support for president,
    Palin only gets 14%, over Gingrich's 12%, but under Huckabee's 21% and Romney's 20%

    I think what is going on is that Palin has much higher favorables as a political celebrity than as a presidential candidate. The people who are interested in what she has to say and the people who think she's qualified to be president are different groups. The latter is much smaller than the former, and it isn't necessarily the case that all of the former agree with all of her points of view., i.e., a favorable opinion of someone does not mean you agree with them.

    There's something else in the CNN poll which might interest you-
    I reproduced a chart from page 14 of it here on an old thread by Oxy mora:

    http://dagblog.com/reader-blogs/time-move-7395#comment-91691

    which shows 84% self-described liberals want to see Obama renominated, despite what one might infer from reading liberal blogs. (I remember at TPMCafe, you did more than one post asking about primary challengers against him.) He gets the highest numbers from self-described liberals. It's the independents, swings, moderates, blue dogs, whatever you want to call them or they want to call themselves, it's them he's got to win over, many more of them are open to seeing a Dem challenger.

    P.S. The poll was mostly registered voters.


    I think approval ratings are overestimated as an index by which to predict elections. The midterms suggest that people don't vote according to some weighing up of comparative pros and cons of candidates. Their voting behavior is determined by whether they think the incumbent deserves to be rewarded with reelection or punished by getting voted out.

    The latter is a very different dynamic. People liked the GOP candidates less than dems last month. But they wanted to punish the dems for not doing a good enough job. So looking at Palin's approval ratings is misleading. If Obama is still 'failing' in 2012, he will get voted out, whoever the other guy or gal on the ballot happens to be. That said, I don't think Palin actually wants to be President. She's more likely to be kingmaker, and throw her weight behind someone like Demint.

    So my prediction: if unemployment is above 10%, Obama loses. If it is below 10% he wins.


    Obey, I agree with you that there is a punishment aspect to the miderm that might not show up in a general. As to the unemployment figure, someone has used a 7.5% figure as a near guarantee of re-election but I don't think 7.5% is possible by late 2012. I definitely think it will be under 10%. There are some good signs in the economy--factory untilization is up in the Chicago region and in Texas. Consumer confidence had a significant rise. I think passage of the unemplolyment benefits is extremely important in not throwing in a downer.   


    Well, I'm glad someone is optimistic...

    ;0)


    Boy you hit the nail on the head with this one. It will be interesting to see how this all unfolds over the next two years.

    That is, it will be fun and interesting if I keep a structural distance from it all.

    I think my son's old tv is too big to toss out the window. hahaha


    First off, tea-baggers are the gift that keeps on giving...to the GOP, that is. The GOP took them in willingly with promises to fulfill their political whims if they would only vote for their party. Of course the GOP never had the slightest interest in their out-of-the-ballpark beliefs...they just needed the votes to get their candidates elected...purely political. And the tea-baggers were more than willing to cooperate cause they knew their time was a coming. But after Bu$h and the GOPer's let them down, they took matters into their own hands.

    What's interesting to note is while some are waging election fights against Democrats, it's the intra-party fights where the most bruises are being delivered. In short, the tea-baggers are fighting for control over the GOP in ways the elite aren't too accustom to. After all, tea-baggers have years of experience at being shoved aside to make way for more important political matters, so they found it was just as easy to turn the tables on the internal power brokers and dictate their terms of engagement.  Ever notice how the GOPer political high mucky-mucks steer clear of tea-bagger tentacles?...it's not their fight and is more of a distraction from what's really important to the goals of the Party.

    It's safe to say, none of the political big names will consider tea-bagger important unless they need their vote or they find themselves up against one of their selected candidates in the next election.

    As for sista Sarah, the best thing to do it let her run with it cause there's only two inevitable outcomes. First, she makes an ass out of herself. Second, the GOP'er's screw the economy up further and unemployment stays in the 9% bracket or higher so the average voters sees no point in electing known candidates...they just close their eyes and let their fingers do the thinking for them and hope their vote for an unknown might make thing turn to the good for a change.

    The real problem is the GOPer determination to halt all legislation in Congress to make Obama look bad and paint him as a one term President. That opens Palin's chances of actually running and possibly winning closer to a simple coin toss...50/50.

    Since I can still add more comments, take a look at McCain...he's endorsing Palin as if she were the real McCoy and fully capable of waltzing into the White House without a problem. Of course, his end game is payback for the lack of GOPer support during his campaign. And you can sure bet your ass Palin picked up on it. So Palin will mount her quasi-campaign free of the GOPer elite and steal a huge portion of the GOPer block with her.

    It's enough to make any GOPer candidate think really hard about running. It would be shameful and painfully embarrassing if the GOPer candidate ends up in 3rd place with less than 10% after all the trouble the GOPers have caused in the last 4 years to humiliate and discredit Obama and Democrats. And it would be shameful and highly embarrassing if Obama doesn't grow a set of cahunas and start governing as if he knew what he was doing cause Palin is riding on a wave of public mistrust in his ability to govern.