Read your link just after reading this one: Trump Asks Wisconsin to Help Elect Him Again @ NewYorker. com, May 1. So I was thinking how Trump tells his "stories"/narratives made up of whole cloth to please the fans. So then it followed that I thought about how it might be that policy wonks who don't have personal charismatic stories are the ones that lose. Policy wonks don't necessarily lose, if they have something else as well, and "likeability" is not precise enough to describe that added factor that's needed to balance. They have to have an inspiring "story" or stories.
As famously laid out by Ryan Lizza and others, Obama actually cynically set out to do this by writing "Dreams from My Father" first, and, having established his "story" (which conveniently explained his strange name, etc.), had the charisma thing and then could move on to be a prolific white paper and policy guy in the primaries. Bill Clinton was extra special in that he could translate wonkery into a story, but even he stlll also did "the boy from Hope". Carter first time: peanut farmer, absolutely fascinating family that a scriptwriter couldn't even imagine, etc.
Al Gore, Michael Dukakis: story? Snore! Hillary Clinton: branded with negative stories already while she was still the first lady of Arkansas, Goldwater girl, harping feminist, and her bad luck (or whatever) just collected more all the time as she went along.
Look to the name Kennedy and Camelot for the gold standard on stories, magic, still resound?
Interesting related; even though it might be too "elite" to charm a significant portion of our population, the meme of making mythic/charismatic is there!
The difference between Bill Clinton’s 1992 team and Obama’s is “the difference between science-fiction writers and engineers,” Scheiber says. “Reich and Galston are the kinds of people who’d sketch out the idea for time travel in a moment of inspiration. Goolsbee et al. could rig up the DeLorean that would actually get you back to 1955.”
(New Obama slogans: 1.21 gigawatts of change? The flux capacitor of hope?).....
What is Barack Obama really like? @ Globe and Mail, Feb. 7, 2008, Q & A with David Mendell, Chicago Tribune reporter and author of a biography of the Democratic presidential candidate, Obama: From Promise to Power.
Obama actually has assembled an elite corps of policy advisers, many of whom ironically worked in the Clinton White House. Anthony Lake, for example, was a top foreign policy staffer for Bill Clinton and he is among Obama's chief counsellors. Many experienced hands in Washington signed up with Obama early, perhaps because in conversations with him they saw a serious politician who is devoted to learning the issues. As I detailed in my book, Obama is a policy wonk at heart. It is very difficult for him, for example, to break down complex issues into sound-bite political slogans because, in my assessment, he indeed feels a deep commitment to solving problems.
I think Obama is loath to tout his policy team for the same reasons other politicians don't. He needs to look like he is the one making decisions, the one who is leading, not his aides....
In doing so, I also came across a lot of mentions that Obama and Hillary were as alike as two candidates could ever be. This reminded me that this is what I felt at the time as well. That they were both extreme wonks with very little disagreement about policy, domestic and foreign. That I wasn't imagining that, that many pundits also thought they were as alike as two pols could be and both very wonkish and having similiar p.o.v. That the controversy over debate points was very faux and was just caused by trying to wrest tiny single-issue demographics from one another. And for that very reason, I really couldn't grok the passion for one over the other at venues like TPM Cafe. That this seemed very delusional. Especially the passionate who were clearing basing it on demagogue like fandom, but also including passion for Hillary over Obama like yours.
Click on 1st link notes Bush's lightweight nostrums were his model:
It's clear from Obama's choice of the term "Blueprint" in his title which model he chooses to emulate. Unlike Gore's wonkish level of detail, Obama's booklet is indeed very long on rhetoric and short on policy. This booklet is DETAILED in the sense that Obama lays out his vision clearly and explicitly. How exactly that vision will get accomplished is not here. Perhaps Gore proved that being a policy wonk is not a good way to get elected, and that Bush's vision-without-details is.
I still cringe with this theory that Hillary & Obama were so alike - I think she did her best to adapt and accommodate her new master, but it never felt relaxed to me, I think he (and his people where not he) did his best to box her in - including of course sidelining her with foreign policy - and I think stylistically she would have governed a ton differently. For one, she wouldn't have been so focused on and constrained by consensus, nor so worried about drama. And I think she would have been more of a pitbull and arm twister to get what she wanted.
I look at an issue like global warming, and it was more a bucket of warm spit - ok, they had a Paris round maybe, but it wasn't like it was a hard push to do anything - perhaps nudging the can forward a few inches and claiming victory & progress. A bit less than enthusiasm and resolve.
Of course in the end "Hillary was kust like Trump" as well - pin the fail on the Donkey
I agree that Obama and Hillary were significantly different on what I believe to be the most important issue, foreign policy. I fault Obama for much on FP but think he might have done some things better if he had had more political capital to spare when so much was invested in the nuclear deal with Iran, an achievement worth a hell of a lot if it stands beyond Trump.
To whatever extent Obama boxed in Hillary as Sec. of State, I am glad he did. Her appointment to that position is one of my criticism of Obama. He had won the nomination partly because he was perceived to have better judgment about military intervention than Hillary, the acknowledged hawk. If she had had more free reign as Secretary of State or worse as President the deal with Iran would have been less likely to have even been pushed, much less passed. She demonstrated her callous opinion of, and indifference to, the sovereignty of Central American States in her dealing with Honduras. I would hope and expect that she would not have been as stupid as Trump and the malignant manatee Bolton regarding Venezuela but there is no reason to think she would have done the "right" thing and respected their sovereignty and tried to help them work through problems rather than slapping them around with our "soft power" until they saw the light and did things our way. Would she revoke Obama's ridiculously transparent lie that Venezuela is a threat to our national security? I doubt it.
Hillary would, In her toughness and bulldog way aligned with her very hawkish nature, probably have us more irrevocably deeper in the wars that we are already involved in, wars we entered with her agreement if not outright push to get involved in. Her willingness, a willingness that often seemed enthusiasm, to “twist arms” [and laugh about the most gruesome results] in order to get what she wanted internationally, particularly in any brown skinned country, is not by any means unique to her but she is who we are talking about. That attitude of “exceptionalism” is the false foundation and false justification of a foreign policy which is not sustainable. Our gigantic super-inefficient military structure is already over extended making it weak everywhere while its cost is driving us bankrupt and its threats make us less safe.
There is one person in the gaggle of Democratic candidates who argues passionately to hit the brakes instead of the wall. She is obviously intelligent. She has relevant experience. She is articulate. Her platform is centered on a clear issue of greatest importance. She does not have any billionaires supporting her by buying a piece of her soul. She is getting ignored except to be criticized or smeared. She will be in the debates and that will be the first time most will see her. I hope the roll of the dice puts her in the same group as Biden.
Yeah, I'm so glad Obama boxed Hillary in with Republican Secretaries-of-Defense Robert Gates & Chuck Hagel, plus putting David "Iraq Surge" Petraeus in as head of the CIA - that must have brought a great relaxation and Obama-style liberalization of Mideast military activity, even though we know that HIllary as Secretary of State de facto controlled the US military from 2009 to 2017, despite the lame excuse of being out of government since January 2013. And even though ISIS was building up from 1999 through 2008, we can blame their serious emergence in 2010 on the US killing most of the leadership - obviously under strict and unfair orders from Hillary - with al-Baghdadi taking over in 2010, which obviously was a surreptitious move from Hillary to foment more unrest in the Mideast and prompt the US to provide more troops to stay forever even though it was decreasing its troop presence to 5000. Trickily Hillary made Obama do a surge against ISIS 1 1/2 years (Jun-Aug 2014) after she left office.
BTW - there's 1 person in the gaggle of Democrats who's a complete fuckwit, and you just can't quit her - why's that? She supports Putin/Assad's bombing of civilians in Syria & downplays their use of chemical weapons, she opposed Obama's nuclear deal with the new reformist government in Iran (even going on Fox News to trash it), while her brief time in the Mideast has formed the basis for an anti-religious militancy that ignores the far more prevalent atrocities from abusive secular Mideast governments (seems she's lost The Nation in this quick convenient Saul-on-road-to-Damascus-like enlightenment that ensnared Christopher Hitchens and other single-bullet theoreticians). As far as I can tell, her bill to oppose arming rebels was primarily to support Syria, and nothing she was doing was much supporting the largely successful anti-ISIS offensive either. In any case, for someone who says he's a complete pacifist, you sure do gush enough over your convenient war hawk (btw, check out her love for Modi in India - another reflection of your values?)
Comments
Read your link just after reading this one: Trump Asks Wisconsin to Help Elect Him Again @ NewYorker. com, May 1. So I was thinking how Trump tells his "stories"/narratives made up of whole cloth to please the fans. So then it followed that I thought about how it might be that policy wonks who don't have personal charismatic stories are the ones that lose. Policy wonks don't necessarily lose, if they have something else as well, and "likeability" is not precise enough to describe that added factor that's needed to balance. They have to have an inspiring "story" or stories.
As famously laid out by Ryan Lizza and others, Obama actually cynically set out to do this by writing "Dreams from My Father" first, and, having established his "story" (which conveniently explained his strange name, etc.), had the charisma thing and then could move on to be a prolific white paper and policy guy in the primaries. Bill Clinton was extra special in that he could translate wonkery into a story, but even he stlll also did "the boy from Hope". Carter first time: peanut farmer, absolutely fascinating family that a scriptwriter couldn't even imagine, etc.
Al Gore, Michael Dukakis: story? Snore! Hillary Clinton: branded with negative stories already while she was still the first lady of Arkansas, Goldwater girl, harping feminist, and her bad luck (or whatever) just collected more all the time as she went along.
Look to the name Kennedy and Camelot for the gold standard on stories, magic, still resound?
Liz Warren doesn't seem to have one.
by artappraiser on Thu, 05/02/2019 - 10:29am
Interesting related; even though it might be too "elite" to charm a significant portion of our population, the meme of making mythic/charismatic is there!
Pete Buttigieg’s Language Magic Is Textbook Polyglot Mythmaking
American culture is far from the first to glorify people who speak several languages.
By Michael Erard @ TheAtlantic.com, APR 29,
by artappraiser on Thu, 05/02/2019 - 10:53am
Obama had policies in the primary? why didn't anyone tell me?
by PeraclesPlease on Thu, 05/02/2019 - 11:46am
That's the way I remember it. But your query made me check whether my memory was correct.
Yep:
Obama and His Wonks By Chris Suellentrop FEBRUARY 28, 2008
What is Barack Obama really like? @ Globe and Mail, Feb. 7, 2008, Q & A with David Mendell, Chicago Tribune reporter and author of a biography of the Democratic presidential candidate, Obama: From Promise to Power.
In doing so, I also came across a lot of mentions that Obama and Hillary were as alike as two candidates could ever be. This reminded me that this is what I felt at the time as well. That they were both extreme wonks with very little disagreement about policy, domestic and foreign. That I wasn't imagining that, that many pundits also thought they were as alike as two pols could be and both very wonkish and having similiar p.o.v. That the controversy over debate points was very faux and was just caused by trying to wrest tiny single-issue demographics from one another. And for that very reason, I really couldn't grok the passion for one over the other at venues like TPM Cafe. That this seemed very delusional. Especially the passionate who were clearing basing it on demagogue like fandom, but also including passion for Hillary over Obama like yours.
by artappraiser on Sat, 05/04/2019 - 12:23am
Click on 1st link notes Bush's lightweight nostrums were his model:
I still cringe with this theory that Hillary & Obama were so alike - I think she did her best to adapt and accommodate her new master, but it never felt relaxed to me, I think he (and his people where not he) did his best to box her in - including of course sidelining her with foreign policy - and I think stylistically she would have governed a ton differently. For one, she wouldn't have been so focused on and constrained by consensus, nor so worried about drama. And I think she would have been more of a pitbull and arm twister to get what she wanted.
I look at an issue like global warming, and it was more a bucket of warm spit - ok, they had a Paris round maybe, but it wasn't like it was a hard push to do anything - perhaps nudging the can forward a few inches and claiming victory & progress. A bit less than enthusiasm and resolve.
Of course in the end "Hillary was kust like Trump" as well - pin the fail on the Donkey
by PeraclesPlease on Sat, 05/04/2019 - 10:08am
I agree that Obama and Hillary were significantly different on what I believe to be the most important issue, foreign policy. I fault Obama for much on FP but think he might have done some things better if he had had more political capital to spare when so much was invested in the nuclear deal with Iran, an achievement worth a hell of a lot if it stands beyond Trump.
To whatever extent Obama boxed in Hillary as Sec. of State, I am glad he did. Her appointment to that position is one of my criticism of Obama. He had won the nomination partly because he was perceived to have better judgment about military intervention than Hillary, the acknowledged hawk. If she had had more free reign as Secretary of State or worse as President the deal with Iran would have been less likely to have even been pushed, much less passed. She demonstrated her callous opinion of, and indifference to, the sovereignty of Central American States in her dealing with Honduras. I would hope and expect that she would not have been as stupid as Trump and the malignant manatee Bolton regarding Venezuela but there is no reason to think she would have done the "right" thing and respected their sovereignty and tried to help them work through problems rather than slapping them around with our "soft power" until they saw the light and did things our way. Would she revoke Obama's ridiculously transparent lie that Venezuela is a threat to our national security? I doubt it.
Hillary would, In her toughness and bulldog way aligned with her very hawkish nature, probably have us more irrevocably deeper in the wars that we are already involved in, wars we entered with her agreement if not outright push to get involved in. Her willingness, a willingness that often seemed enthusiasm, to “twist arms” [and laugh about the most gruesome results] in order to get what she wanted internationally, particularly in any brown skinned country, is not by any means unique to her but she is who we are talking about. That attitude of “exceptionalism” is the false foundation and false justification of a foreign policy which is not sustainable. Our gigantic super-inefficient military structure is already over extended making it weak everywhere while its cost is driving us bankrupt and its threats make us less safe.
There is one person in the gaggle of Democratic candidates who argues passionately to hit the brakes instead of the wall. She is obviously intelligent. She has relevant experience. She is articulate. Her platform is centered on a clear issue of greatest importance. She does not have any billionaires supporting her by buying a piece of her soul. She is getting ignored except to be criticized or smeared. She will be in the debates and that will be the first time most will see her. I hope the roll of the dice puts her in the same group as Biden.
by A Guy Called LULU on Sat, 05/04/2019 - 11:55am
Yeah, I'm so glad Obama boxed Hillary in with Republican Secretaries-of-Defense Robert Gates & Chuck Hagel, plus putting David "Iraq Surge" Petraeus in as head of the CIA - that must have brought a great relaxation and Obama-style liberalization of Mideast military activity, even though we know that HIllary as Secretary of State de facto controlled the US military from 2009 to 2017, despite the lame excuse of being out of government since January 2013. And even though ISIS was building up from 1999 through 2008, we can blame their serious emergence in 2010 on the US killing most of the leadership - obviously under strict and unfair orders from Hillary - with al-Baghdadi taking over in 2010, which obviously was a surreptitious move from Hillary to foment more unrest in the Mideast and prompt the US to provide more troops to stay forever even though it was decreasing its troop presence to 5000. Trickily Hillary made Obama do a surge against ISIS 1 1/2 years (Jun-Aug 2014) after she left office.
BTW - there's 1 person in the gaggle of Democrats who's a complete fuckwit, and you just can't quit her - why's that? She supports Putin/Assad's bombing of civilians in Syria & downplays their use of chemical weapons, she opposed Obama's nuclear deal with the new reformist government in Iran (even going on Fox News to trash it), while her brief time in the Mideast has formed the basis for an anti-religious militancy that ignores the far more prevalent atrocities from abusive secular Mideast governments (seems she's lost The Nation in this quick convenient Saul-on-road-to-Damascus-like enlightenment that ensnared Christopher Hitchens and other single-bullet theoreticians). As far as I can tell, her bill to oppose arming rebels was primarily to support Syria, and nothing she was doing was much supporting the largely successful anti-ISIS offensive either. In any case, for someone who says he's a complete pacifist, you sure do gush enough over your convenient war hawk (btw, check out her love for Modi in India - another reflection of your values?)
by PeraclesPlease on Sat, 05/04/2019 - 5:07pm