'It’s Time for Democrats to Buck Up and Give Joe Manchin What He Wants'

By artappraiser on Sat, 12/18/2021 - 8:54pm |

Well argued.https://t.co/gOTIKkXTxs via @slate
— Harris Meyer (@Meyer_HM) December 17, 2021

URL:

https://slate.com/business/2021/12/manchin-democrats-bbb-spending.html

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Very insightful piece. https://t.co/WJ3DootTwT
— David Cay Johnston (@DavidCayJ) December 17, 2021

(edit: oops!)

by artappraiser on Sat, 12/18/2021 - 8:56pm

found retweeted by Laura Rozen:

As burned as they feel right now, Dems have to be careful about how hard they drag #Manchin for killing #BBB. Because Dems need him to pass #VotingRights, which he supports, tho not quite there yet on the filibuster. Failure here is not an option, if US #democracy is to survive. https://t.co/Ha78qFoMAT
— Paula Chertok (@PaulaChertok) December 19, 2021

by artappraiser on Sun, 12/19/2021 - 11:14am

Look at the difference in this spin by Hasan on the same!

Manchin is not only deeply right-wing, he’s also deeply dishonest. He said earlier this year he was open to a talking filibuster reform. He, just last week, along with the GOP okayed a ‘change with the filibuster’ on the debt limit.

But black & brown people’s voting rights? Nah https://t.co/5nhl2Je8ye
— Mehdi Hasan (@mehdirhasan) December 19, 2021

In a way I actually find his take very undemocratic; ironically, he doesn't seem to "get" democracy. Hers is more like it.

by artappraiser on Sun, 12/19/2021 - 11:58am

Chertok also just retweeted this:

Quite the rejoinder from @PressSec to @SenatorManchin, who they say this morning contradicted what he'd been telling @POTUS all week. pic.twitter.com/ixDlvhJN85
— Eli Stokols (@EliStokols) December 19, 2021

by artappraiser on Sun, 12/19/2021 - 12:00pm

There’s a very long paper trail of Manchin making the same demands as today and pointedly not committing to the WH framework or the House bill it’s derived from. If there’s something he said differently in private that they’re mad about, not much evidence of it so far.
— Benjy Sarlin (@BenjySarlin) December 19, 2021

The reality is that the more you dig into a lot of the details of this bill the less it makes sense.
— E R (@eroseSCS) December 19, 2021

Honest question: how many of the provisions/programs in BIF were funded for 10 years?
— Brandon Cline (@_BrandonCline) December 19, 2021

There aren't any entitlements in BIF so the implications are much different when/if funding changes in the future.
— smilerz (@smilerz91) December 19, 2021

by artappraiser on Sun, 12/19/2021 - 12:31pm

I do trust Carl Hulse to have an inkling of what's really going on here:

Senators love to talk about how their word is their bond in the chamber. Being called out for breaking your word is a big thing. That's why WH accusing Sen Manchin of a "breach of commitments" is so significant given Pres Biden's history as a senator himself. https://t.co/FafaoFXlwJ
— Carl Hulse (@hillhulse) December 19, 2021

by artappraiser on Sun, 12/19/2021 - 1:21pm

and this is very likely too (Grossman is a very savvy Political Scientist):

My guess on what pushed Manchin over the edge: he took private offer to White House this week & then got publicly blamed for opposing the child tax credit. WH thought they could postpone & pressure him to accept more. He decided Biden wasn’t going to take a private deal & sell it
— Matt Grossmann (@MattGrossmann) December 19, 2021

by artappraiser on Sun, 12/19/2021 - 1:25pm

That sounds like a rookie move - especially after 6 months. Color me skeptical.

by PeraclesPlease on Sun, 12/19/2021 - 1:43pm

Yglesias:

Manchin is much more progressive than anyone else who is going to win elections in West Virginia any time soon.

If you don't like depending on him, the answer is to find ways to win seats in states like NC, FL, TX, IA, and OH that Trump won twice but by less comical margins.
— Matthew Yglesias (@mattyglesias) December 19, 2021

We've all argued ourselves to the point of illness on "popularism" over the past year, but the brutal math remains what it is — if you want to build a governing majority you need a way to run candidates who appeal to a nontrivial number of confirmed Trump voters.
— Matthew Yglesias (@mattyglesias) December 19, 2021

Suppose you had $1.75 trillion in revenue to work with and wanted to secure the vote of a senator who is determined to reduce the budget deficit. pic.twitter.com/FGXs4MIkgj
— Matthew Yglesias (@mattyglesias) December 19, 2021

Yes exactly https://t.co/HTRlYVRo08
— Matthew Yglesias (@mattyglesias) December 19, 2021

by artappraiser on Sun, 12/19/2021 - 11:18am

Isn’t this just what he said last week? pic.twitter.com/5bpRNYxO5T
— Matthew Yglesias (@mattyglesias) December 19, 2021

This is definitely what he said last week.

Tuesday’s Slow Boring will outline four good options that conform to this goal, combat climate change, and expand the welfare state. https://t.co/l5hlWb0PYz
— Matthew Yglesias (@mattyglesias) December 19, 2021

I would simply write a bill that:

— Increases spending by $1.75 trillion over the 10-year CBO scoring window
— Does so without relying on phase-out gimmicks

You could accomplish a lot within these terms!https://t.co/qS0zomDqBV
— Matthew Yglesias (@mattyglesias) December 19, 2021

This childish dynamic, in my view, is why we keep spinning in circles here. pic.twitter.com/tRBVUAKhR9
— Matthew Yglesias (@mattyglesias) December 19, 2021

I find these a couple of interesting replies

It shouldn't be difficult, but the Democratic Party simply doesn't work that way any longer. To put it differently, intersectionality makes EVERYTHING equally essential.
— Steve Goldstein (@SteveGoldstein1) December 19, 2021

i see it as fundamental personality diff. The left is ‘creative chaos‘ that likes new things but can’t draw boundaries and so sort into hierarchies. The right likes order, especially status quo or past order, and wants to make decisions and get ‘er done.
— Blöchen Tächel (@SmotWicket) December 19, 2021

by artappraiser on Sun, 12/19/2021 - 11:26am

Gerrymandering and quasi-legal state governing remains a problem.

by PeraclesPlease on Sun, 12/19/2021 - 12:00pm

On Yglesias' first point:

20 Republican Senate seats are up in '22. National Dems need to talk about them this week, not Manchin.
— David Jolly (@DavidJollyFL) December 19, 2021

It is one that particularly drives me nuts, all this blame on Manchin as if they are characters in a play. No - he represents WEST VIRGINIA. West Virginians voted for him and you cannot kick West Virginia out of the union, that's democracy too. Democracy is not: all my people get to vote, but not your people. Wake up and smell the coffee: Bernie and The Squad do not represent the whole nation either.

by artappraiser on Sun, 12/19/2021 - 1:32pm

Quite the quote from Joe Manchin, in new statement:

"My Democratic colleagues in Washington are determined to dramatically reshape our society in a way that leaves our country even more
vulnerable to the threats we face.”
— Josh Kraushaar (@HotlineJosh) December 19, 2021

by artappraiser on Sun, 12/19/2021 - 11:50am

McConnell move to split infrastructure from social spending — and to support the infrastructure package — again an example of how the Senate Minority Leader playing the long game, thinking several steps ahead.
— Josh Kraushaar (@HotlineJosh) December 19, 2021

by artappraiser on Sun, 12/19/2021 - 12:35pm

Reminder, Manchin and Schumer signed an agreement in July, then Democrats spent five months disregarding every provision of it and somehow thinking they could bully Manchin into going along. pic.twitter.com/oRKn6zZJWd
— Phil Kerpen (@kerpen) December 19, 2021

For all the grief Biden is getting for the BBB debacle, it’s kind of amazing that Schumer isn’t getting more criticism. I mean, strong case can be made that this is his screw up as much as anybody’s.
— Jonah Goldberg (@JonahDispatch) December 19, 2021

by artappraiser on Sun, 12/19/2021 - 12:38pm

But FWIW here's one thing Schumer IS doing today -

Ted Cruz lifted his hold on confirming key Biden Admin nominations because Schumer threatened to keep the Senate in session through Christmas. Completely exposes Ted Cruz for the ideological fraud he is. Thank you @SenSchumer.
— Tim Hannan (@TimHannan) December 19, 2021

41 ambassadors, 10 district court judges and 5 appointments in one day. Thanks @SenSchumer and team!
— Amy Klobuchar (@amyklobuchar) December 18, 2021

.@SenSchumer: "Under President Trump, Republicans lacked any robust legislative agenda and focused almost entirely on rubber-stamping a parade of far-right unqualified and highly ideological nominations to the federal bench. This year, we're administering the antidote." pic.twitter.com/qcx7iCaLjy
— The Hill (@thehill) December 18, 2021

by artappraiser on Sun, 12/19/2021 - 12:42pm

Perhaps cuz White House blames Manchin for a 180?

I know it's great to consider Manchin a straight shooter looking out for his constituency, but maybe he's just one more prima donna who's largely irrational and a pain in the ass? Not everyone's good at 13-dimensional chess, but too many think they are.

Sure Biden could blame it on Chuck, but doesn't sound much like him.

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/joe-manchin-build-back-better-jen-psaki_n...

by PeraclesPlease on Sun, 12/19/2021 - 12:46pm

Tucked away inside the Build Back Better Act was a four-year extension of an excise tax that funds a program that helps sick coal miners. The current rate of the tax will expire at the end of this year, and the program faces insolvency. My latest: https://t.co/tneYMVGNqf
— Grace Segers (@Grace_Segers) December 19, 2021

.@burgessev & @JonLemire have much more on the anger at Manchin from Bernie and the White House —https://t.co/ix2iAO3HV1
— Andrew Desiderio (@AndrewDesiderio) December 19, 2021

by PeraclesPlease on Sun, 12/19/2021 - 1:51pm

Here's a good example of how a centrist but still a Dem thinks. We don't hear from them often, they're usually not this noisy, they just vote and then everyone ion the left goes "but we were supposed to have a blue wave, wha' happened?":

The current version of BBB has provisions Manchin objects to.

Notice how no one is screaming at Sanders for putting stuff in the bill he knows Manchin won't accept? How come no one blames Sanders for BBB being stalled?

We need to pressure both of these guys to stop posturing. https://t.co/csrZloNrsT
— DCPetterson (@dcpetterson) December 19, 2021

It apparently comes as a shock to some people, bordering on blasphemy, to reveal that Saint Bernard of Sanders is an impure politician who does the same sorts of posturing and political manipulation that every politician needs to do, because politics is like that. https://t.co/USKm8CHuw8
— DCPetterson (@dcpetterson) December 19, 2021

Here's a classic troll, engaging in ButTheyHaven't-ism, blaming Democrats for what Republicans do, lying about the superpower POTUS has to enact legislation, and doing her part to elect Republicans.https://t.co/QrRdkNV75n
— DCPetterson (@dcpetterson) December 19, 2021

This troll thinks Jan 6 was a conversation about race and culture which Democrats aren't willing to have. https://t.co/QrRdkNV75n
— DCPetterson (@dcpetterson) December 19, 2021

What we need is more Democrats in the Senate so we don't have to have every single one of them voting together in order to get a majority. https://t.co/tNfG4a2RJm
— DCPetterson (@dcpetterson) December 19, 2021

and another, in reply to the above on AOC:

We can extend the child tax credit for ten years. Manchin supports doing that, right? We can at least do that. Get the CTC into law until 2031. Dare Manchin not to come along for a stand alone bill to do that. Then dare the squad not to come along for that.
— THEE Brad Hirsch (@BradHirsch7) December 19, 2021

by artappraiser on Sun, 12/19/2021 - 6:00pm

Mind you, he is a liar.

But those parents in WV who just lost $$ to feed their kids don't understand that.
— emptywheel (@emptywheel) December 19, 2021

by PeraclesPlease on Sun, 12/19/2021 - 6:23pm

Justin Amash

Don’t blame Manchin for BBB’s demise. If Congress actually had a robust debate and amendment process, this would have been sorted out months ago. Having the oligarchy write a bill and then twist arms has always been, and will always be, unrepresentative, stupid, and dangerous.
— Justin Amash (@justinamash) December 19, 2021

by artappraiser on Sun, 12/19/2021 - 6:07pm

Well, let's call Biden the "oligarchy", rather than "the President". That clarifies everything, doesn't it. & just replace Congress with the magically unicorn improved Congress. Amash is who by the way?

by PeraclesPlease on Sun, 12/19/2021 - 6:12pm

Maybe I'm wrong, but I think by "oligarchy" here he is referring to how it's often lobbyists that do the actual writing of the massive bills.

(As long as we're on that topic, one of my own pet peeves is many used the term "lobbyists" to refer to big business corporations, when they are just as often working for non-profits with agendas, i.e., the association for the handicapped or Americans for this or that tax deduction,etc....)

by artappraiser on Sun, 12/19/2021 - 6:37pm

Well, he's a libertarian now, so "oligarchy" means any of those bad awful people. Like "Dems+Reps".

by PeraclesPlease on Sun, 12/19/2021 - 7:44pm

The Manchin long con (rejecting entreaties to switch parties, backing ARP, voting for the reconciliation instructions, confirming Biden's judges) has an endgame of ... getting money for EVs, mass transit, and clean water added to a highway bill? https://t.co/pvnBrlTeJr
— Matthew Yglesias (@mattyglesias) December 19, 2021

by artappraiser on Sun, 12/19/2021 - 11:45pm

Personally, I feel happy and grateful every day that a state as conservative as West Virginia is represented by someone as progressive as Joe Manchin.

It’s not his fault that Democratic candidates didn’t successfully sell this agenda in Maine or Florida or a dozen other states.
— Matthew Yglesias (@mattyglesias) December 19, 2021

by artappraiser on Sun, 12/19/2021 - 11:48pm

.@RonWyden releases outline for the pillars of an updated BBB that might fit Sen. Manchin’s criteria while also bringing along progressives.

-Long-term expansion of the current child tax credit

-Tech neutral energy tax incentives

-Rx drug price control pic.twitter.com/7suosi26ja
— Colin Wilhelm (@colinwilhelm) December 19, 2021

by artappraiser on Sun, 12/19/2021 - 11:47pm

And Manchin wants this negotiated on the front page? Painfully?

by PeraclesPlease on Mon, 12/20/2021 - 1:33am

this does not at all strike me as a smart or effective way of fighting back, it actually may make things worse:

AOC said she thought her district had as many residents as West Virginia, on “Morning Joe” today.

West Virginia pop: 1.79M residents
NY-14 pop: 750,000 residents
— Josh Kraushaar (@HotlineJosh) December 20, 2021

AOC: “What we really need to do is crack down on the Senate, which acts like an old boys’ club…”
— Josh Kraushaar (@HotlineJosh) December 20, 2021

just people on Twitter can counter it right away:

“I’m not an expert but…” + “WE need to crack down on [elected senators]” = only 2.7% of her district’s voters voted + over 90% of her donations are from out of STATE.
— Irka (@IrkaLive) December 20, 2021

She's a congress woman bc she got like 1,100 more votes than Joe Crowley in a primary.
— MATTMcAllister (@Catfatmatty) December 20, 2021

It doesn't matter. WV is a state. I guess we add the Constitution to the list of things AOC doesn't understand.
— Ben Ellis (@another_ellis) December 20, 2021

Well, her life is going to change dramatically in 2023 when she is in the minority in the house for the first time
— Andre Powell, CPA (@apowe003) December 20, 2021

Translated: it needs more tantrums and foot-stomping.
— RegulatoryCreep (@DKWhitaker) December 20, 2021

Yes, heaven forbid other parts of the country think differently than AOC. Maybe it is not a good ol' boys club but how other parts of the country think. She is some kind of special.
— William Latta (@Latta2de) December 20, 2021

Shouting at them, apparently.
— Sir Humphrey (@bdquinn) December 20, 2021

How does it act like an old boys club lol? Bc they don’t do exactly what she wants?
— Greg Palmer (@Palmer102420) December 20, 2021

by artappraiser on Mon, 12/20/2021 - 7:13pm

Strategically at this point I'm not sure what's wise but "Manchin banks points at home by killing BBB" is 100% true and also his prime motivation.

A lot of strategy discourse evades this obvious fact. https://t.co/90JPT4QPpb
— Alice (@AliceFromQueens) December 19, 2021

To add to what Alice is saying: This (and divisions within the GOP) is why Trump could never get a budget that cut funding to Planned Parenthood (his budgets increased it), the NEA, the NEH, etc—all the culture war stuff everyone tells me they care about so much. If anything, https://t.co/EQYH4yZSkf
— corey robin (@CoreyRobin) December 19, 2021

the Dems are closer to getting what they want than the GOP ever was. I don't say this to make anyone feel better—what the Dems want or can get is nowhere near what we need—but instead to shift our focus from weak Dems and strong Republicans and evil Manchin to 10 years of parties
— corey robin (@CoreyRobin) December 19, 2021

holding all the levers of government and still not being able to execute their will. We face two challenges to democracy, in other words: on the one hand, a party that wants to undermine elections; on the other, a system that makes it increasingly difficult for any party to
— corey robin (@CoreyRobin) December 19, 2021

execute its will, even if that will represents the will of the majority. For all the talk of a new GOP unleashing its fascist will upon the world, the reality is a system of two parties of near paralysis (particularly when we think about the scale of the problems we're facing).
— corey robin (@CoreyRobin) December 19, 2021

I'm not much of a Biden fan but anyone who says "Senator X is the real president" is simply describing our system of government
— Alice (@AliceFromQueens) December 19, 2021

To be clear again: it's not *Manchin* who's the real power over spending. It's Congress. And it always has been Congress. This is literally how our government was designed.

And yeah, I'd do a lot of things differently if I could redraft the Constitution.
— Alice (@AliceFromQueens) December 19, 2021

What would you do differently? Madisonian electoral-filtration?
— Aaron Gwyn (@AmericanGwyn) December 19, 2021

parliamentary system with a strong bill of rights
— Alice (@AliceFromQueens) December 19, 2021

This makes a lot of sense, but have you considered a more effective tack may be simply accusing your interlocutor of denying the validity of the election, and insisting that Joe Biden is indeed the President?
— catspaw (@nastypnasty) December 19, 2021

idgi. manchin doesn't deny the election result
— Alice (@AliceFromQueens) December 19, 2021

I feel like most people would want a system where one person did not have much power and not realize that that's what congress already is
— Manzell Beezy (@BeezyManzell) December 19, 2021

exactly.
— Alice (@AliceFromQueens) December 19, 2021

by artappraiser on Tue, 12/21/2021 - 8:41am

Biden& Manchin spoke last night and agreed to continue negotiations on BBB……,..,,,,https://t.co/O7NLOtmUGA
— Sherry M (@liberalinohio) December 21, 2021

by artappraiser on Tue, 12/21/2021 - 5:20pm

After a day of uncertainty, Manchin is, in fact, on the call with Senate Dems tonight as they discuss their path forward, per two sources familiar with the matter
— Manu Raju (@mkraju) December 22, 2021

Manchin addressed the caucus, I’m told. He said he’s consistent for the past five months, saying inflation is a problem and noting he has been raising geopolitical concerns as well. He said they need tax reform to force the rich to pay more, per a source
— Manu Raju (@mkraju) December 22, 2021

Manchin told the caucus, per another source: “Inflation is a serious issue. These programs will cost more than they are saying. I can’t add to the debt.”
— Manu Raju (@mkraju) December 22, 2021

Schumer told caucus they would still hold procedural vote on BBB. In Senate language, he said, per source: “In the new year, we will have a vote on the Motion to Proceed to the House-passed bill.”
— Manu Raju (@mkraju) December 22, 2021

He added: “At this time, it is my intention to make the Senate substitute amendment the current Senate text as published and shared with your offices, unless we are able to reach an agreement on modifications acceptable to the entire caucus ahead of that.”
— Manu Raju (@mkraju) December 22, 2021

Manchin told his colleagues he would keep talking, per source, but he made clear he has lots of concerns with current bill.
— Manu Raju (@mkraju) December 22, 2021

Manchin spox: “This evening Senator Manchin had an honest conversation with his colleagues for whom he has a great deal of respect.”
— Manu Raju (@mkraju) December 22, 2021

by artappraiser on Tue, 12/21/2021 - 11:26pm

from the second tweet, if true, certainly blows a hole in the "Maserati Manchin" meme: He said they need tax reform to force the rich to pay more, per a source. Conservative about deficit spending? yes absolutely (and granted, many with chops on topic think that silly in this situation). But a fuck-the-poor "Maserati Manchin"? No. (Actually, he's more like onea them "tax-and-spend libruls" that Republicans used to talk about long ago.)

I'd suggest people go back and read, or re-read, the Slate article at the top of this thread. A lot of the disagreement is a belief that a lot of these programs won't last any longer than the current Congress and therefore won't accomplish a thing, so a lot like throwing money in the wind.

by artappraiser on Tue, 12/21/2021 - 11:46pm

'It’s Time for Democrats to Buck Up and Give Joe Manchin What He Wants'

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