At Least Two Gunmen Involved in Shooting in DC Naval Yard--Still Going On

At Least Two Gunmen Involved in Shooting in DC Naval Yard--Still Going On

By Bruce Levine on Mon, 09/16/2013 - 10:56am |

URL:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/

4858 reads

Comments

Four people are reported dead.

by Bruce Levine on Mon, 09/16/2013 - 10:59am

Story is fluid in terms of number dead and number of gunmen.

by Bruce Levine on Mon, 09/16/2013 - 12:56pm

These are people who work with my husband.

by tmccarthy0 on Mon, 09/16/2013 - 2:04pm

Is your husband out of harm's way?

by AnonymousRm (not verified) on Mon, 09/16/2013 - 2:29pm

Yes, he is NavSea out here in the NW.

by tmccarthy0 on Mon, 09/16/2013 - 4:07pm

Glad to hear that. Condo lenses to the fallen and their families.

by rmrd0000 on Mon, 09/16/2013 - 4:34pm

What rm said Tmac. Best to your husband's colleagues.

by Bruce Levine on Mon, 09/16/2013 - 9:37pm

I listened to the latest press conference.

The FBI said they have put up pictures on their website of the dead shooter, Aaron Alexis of Ft. Worth, Texas, asking for any bit of information on him anyone has.

They still are worried about a second person of interest, in fatigue-like clothing, which they know about from a video. But it didn't sound very much like they are worried about him as an actual shooter. It seemed to me more like this: just in case this guy was involved, they don't want to make it sound like he isn't dangerous.

They have no idea of motive.

Rumors of a third person involved have been ruled out. They found that person, talked to him, and he was not involved.

by artappraiser on Mon, 09/16/2013 - 5:05pm

WaPo has a live blog:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/liveblog/wp/2013/09/16/shooting-at-w...

But so far I think NYTimes' Lede is doing a better job:

http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/09/16/live-updates-from-washington...

Unless you need things like local D.C. information on traffic and events closings.

by artappraiser on Mon, 09/16/2013 - 4:49pm

From The Lede, the FBI sheet:

by artappraiser on Mon, 09/16/2013 - 4:52pm

The Ft. Worth Star Telegram has managed to find out quite a bit about him in short order (via The Lede):

Fort Worth man, 34, accused of shootings in Navy Yard
Posted Monday, Sep. 16, 2013

At 3:37 pm, The Lede also reported from Fed authorities who identified Alexis as the gunman, that three weapons were found on the gunman: an AR-15 assault rifle, a shotgun and a semiautomatic pistol.

by artappraiser on Mon, 09/16/2013 - 5:49pm

Some of those weapons may have been taken from victims.

by Donal on Mon, 09/16/2013 - 7:16pm

I have heard this now, too, and if true, gets the whole NRA "arm everyone who wants to be armed" argument out of the way...

by artappraiser on Mon, 09/16/2013 - 9:28pm

Well it's a good thing someone was armed, in order to stop the deranged gunman. .What it does prove though; is that background checks didn't help; he just took the guns away from others, who could legally carry. .....Take away or restrict the gun rights of legal citizens then only criminals will have guns. Even the cops entrusted to protect us, shoot first then ask questions. maybe the latest victim of police manslaughter, would still be alive today?

by Resistance on Mon, 09/16/2013 - 10:40pm

If you are talking about the young man killed by a police officer while seeking assistance after an automobile accident, are you suggesting that the first act should have been to shot the police officer?

by rmrd0000 on Tue, 09/17/2013 - 9:22am

It really doesn't matter anyway does it? If someone starts shooting to kill me, even if it is a cop, for no other reason than I look suspicious? You may think it virtuous that you didn't fire back at the officer, who was looking to kill you? You'll still be dead, rotting in the grave, all the while, the officer walks and sees another day of life.

The officer saying OOOPS, ....doesn't work for me;... how about you?

Show me a man, who allows a police officer to fire 12 rounds and hitting him ten times and if he had a gun and didn't fire back in self defense; I'll show you a fool, with a death wish. Either way, he was probably going to die, but at least he'd have taken the SOB with him.

Observe the current State of the Union, with the Red coat mentality against the inhabitants /colonist,s along with every other Constitutional attack from those who hide behind the shield of authority. Our governmental authorities don't need Sarin gas, some of our our nations police officers, will just indiscriminately kill suspects or anyone they deem deserving; all the while they want everyone else' guns. May have been born at night; but not last night.

by Resistance on Tue, 09/17/2013 - 8:01pm

Resistance, there's a new AMA study out for you about your safety and security and that of your loved ones.

I know, I know there's the bogeyman oligarchs out there, and you and your confreres who rebel against a simple measure of making all gun purchases registered and licensed as if it means the guns will go away, are smarter than all of the cops and criminals out there and can take on the oligarchs and tanks and drones any time it's a go. I'm sure you're a better shot and just a better man than all of them, would be an upstanding member of any revolutionary militia, or criminal gang for that matter.

But you just don't believe in licensing the danged things. Don't bother. I know all your idiotic slippery slope arguments. They're bullshit.

Licensing would not hurt you (unless your nutty comments about guns are a signifier that you also have may more screws loose.) But it would help keep them away from the black market to criminals and from the mentally ill, from those who have used them in a hotheaded manner for minor crimes and from those who don't have the skills to use them safely.

No, it wouldn't stop every shooting. Just like licensing automobile driving doesn't stop every accident. I think I've made this point before: didya ever notice how even though they became licensed, we have more automobiles than ever before? And how the only people who really come after them are those interested in their value, like repo men?

by artappraiser on Wed, 09/18/2013 - 4:48pm

But you just don't believe in licensing the danged things. Don't bother. I know all your idiotic slippery slope arguments.

I bet you also believe the NSA doesn't illegally spy on US citizens either? Or that the government having the registered or licensed gun owners name and address at their immediate control, wouldn't come after the guns, of those who stand in the way of government tyranny?

The very purpose our founding fathers stated "the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed" The governments attempts to have guns registered is for the sole purpose of infringement.

I don't know how you feel about going to war in Syria, but if our so called leaders, decided to overrule the citizens of our nation, sending our young men and woman to die in a war, the peasants wanted no part of . OVER OUR OBJECTIONS; would you consider that an act of tyranny? Would we be living a repeat, of the injustices the British put our fledgling Nation through; when they would grab/kidnap our citizens and compelled them to fight for British causes? Where would the resistance come from; maybe you could jawbone them and they would reconsider?

We don't need the government, having the names and addresses, of those who would be the possible resistance they fear. Of course the government and their dupes,would love to infringe upon those people.

by Resistance on Wed, 09/18/2013 - 9:09pm

Quite helpful for perspective, I think:

20 Deadliest Mass Shootings in U.S. History Fast Facts
By CNN Library, 7:10 PM EDT, September 16, 2013

Here is a list of the 20 deadliest mass shootings in U.S. history from 1965 to the present. If the shooter was killed or committed suicide during the incident that death is not included in the total....

by artappraiser on Mon, 09/16/2013 - 7:54pm

Saw this at USAToday:

SINCE 2006, MORE THAN 200 MASS KILLINGS IN THE U.S.

Not just shootings, but stabbings, bludgeonings, and immolations. Really quite sickening especially the type labeled Family Killings.

by EmmaZahn on Tue, 09/17/2013 - 1:41am

Played violent video games for hours on end? Check!

http://blogs.wsj.com/washwire/2013/09/16/friend-aaron-alexis-skilled-at-...

Also of interest: a “hardcore drinker”

Major irony factoid: Mr. Alexis had recently converted from Christianity to Buddhism, he said.

by artappraiser on Mon, 09/16/2013 - 7:59pm

Serious mental health problems? Check!

Gunman in Navy Yard rampage was hearing voices
By Eric Tucker, Brett Zongker and Lolita C. Baldor, The Associated Press, September 17, 2013

WASHINGTON — The former Navy reservist who slaughtered 12 people at the Washington Navy Yard had been hearing voices and was being treated for mental problems in the weeks before the shooting rampage, but was not stripped of his security clearance, officials said Tuesday.

Aaron Alexis, a 34-year-old information technology employee with a defense contractor, used a valid pass to get into the highly secured installation Monday morning [....]

U.S. law enforcement officials told The Associated Press that there was no known connection to international or domestic terrorism and that investigators have found no manifesto or other writings suggesting a political or religious motivation.

Alexis had been suffering a host of serious mental problems, including paranoia and a sleep disorder, and had been hearing voices in his head, according to the officials, who spoke on condition of anonymity because the criminal investigation was still going on.

He had been treated since August by Veterans Affairs for his mental problems, the officials said.

The Navy had not declared him mentally unfit, which would have rescinded a security clearance Alexis had from his earlier time in the Navy Reserves.

The assault is likely to raise more questions about the adequacy of the background checks done on contract employees and others who are issued security clearances - an issue that came up most recently with National Security Agency leaker Edward Snowden, an IT employee with a government contractor.

In the hours after the Navy Yard attack, a profile of Alexis began coming into focus [....]

by artappraiser on Tue, 09/17/2013 - 11:03am

This is why I worship Louis Gohmert!

"There has been great investigation and study into this," Gohmert told Chris Wallace on Fox News Sunday, arguing that mass killings happen where citizens tend to be unarmed. "They choose this place [because] they know no one will be armed."

Gohmert argued that the mass slaughter would have gone differently if Sandy Hook principal Dawn Hochsprung had been armed.

"Chris, I wish to God she had had an m-4 in her office, locked up so when she heard gunfire, she pulls it out ... and takes him out and takes his head off before he can kill those precious kids," Gohmert said.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/16/louie-gohmert-guns_n_2311379.html

Just think if a lot of those people on that military base carried their own weapons!

This never would have happened.

by Richard Day on Mon, 09/16/2013 - 11:48pm

Stupid people have a Constitutional right to have representation in Congress. Gohmert and Bachmann are merely serving a legally protected role.

by rmrd0000 on Tue, 09/17/2013 - 9:29am

Naval Yard graphic answering some of my own questions about security there: Employees must pass armed guard and swipe access cards to enter; visitors must go through metal detector at main entrance

http://www.stripes.com/news/us/1.241744

More on topic found via Stars and Stripes website:

Navy Yard shooting puts spotlight on military base security
By John Fritze and Matthew Hay Brown, The (Baltimore) Sun, September 16, 2013

[....] But the analysts say more could be done to screen military personnel for mental health problems — though it’s not clear that such action would have prevented Monday’s rampage [....]

“If you’re trying to stop them at the gate, you’re too late,” he said. “We need to have better screening processes.”

Authorities are well aware of the challenge. Just last month, Navy Secretary Ray Mabus ordered the creation of a program to counter “insider threats.”

The program, which calls for better training and increased scrutiny of Navy and Marine Corps personnel, is aimed at thwarting not only violent attacks, but also security breaches such as those carried out by Army Pfc. Bradley Manning and National Security Agency contractor Edward Snowden.

Improved mental health screenings was among the top recommendations of an independent panel commissioned by the Defense Department to review the Fort Hood shooting.

Former Maj. Nidal Malik Hasan, an Army psychiatrist who had worked at Walter Reed Army Medical Center in Washington, was sentenced to death last month after admitting to the killings.

The review panel also called for better background checks on civilians who enter military installations, and on foreign nationals who work for the Defense Department. [....]

Which in turn reminds me of Tom Ricks' "asleep at the wheel" blog post about the Manning case earlier this month. Ricks later had an Army major do a guest post on the question he raised.

by artappraiser on Tue, 09/17/2013 - 11:24am

Had Aug. 7 police encounter ,with him delusional; 2 days before shooting had target practice with rented AR-15 & purchasedof shotgun & ammo; used the shotgun and a purloined handgun for the shooting, not the automatic rifle.

Washington Navy Yard shooter practiced with AR-15 at Virginia range two days before rampage, lawyer says
By Michael Isikoff, Jim Miklaszewski and Pete Williams, NBC News, Sept. 17, 2013

Aaron Alexis, the Washington Navy Yard shooter, rented an AR-15 semi-automatic rifle and used it for target practice at a Northern Virginia gun range and store less than two days before his shooting spree, according to the lawyer for the store.

J. Michael Slocum, a lawyer for Sharpshooters Small Arms Range in Lorton, Va., said in an email to NBC News that on Sept. 14 Alexis also bought a Remington 870 shotgun and a "small amount of ammunition -- approximately 2 boxes- 24 shells." Alexis listed his residence as being in Texas.

Authorities said Alexis used a Remington shotgun to shoot a police officer and a security guard before taking one of their handguns and continuing on his rampage. Some earlier reports said an assault-style rifle, such as the AR-15 was used in the shooting but the FBI said it didn’t believe he did [.....]

Police in Newport, R.I., said that Alexis called them to a Marriott hotel there on the morning of Aug. 7 and reported that he was being followed and was worried that the people were going to hurt him.

Alexis told police that the three talked to him through the walls, floor or ceiling at three hotels — two commercial hotels in Rhode Island and one on a naval base there. He told them that they used a microwave machine to send vibrations and keep him awake [....]

At the end of same article on the pitiful state of military base security, my bold:

Security flaws

Mabus’ reviews come as a Defense Department inspector general report, made public on Tuesday, disclosed major flaws in security screening of contractors working on Navy installations.

The report says 52 convicted felons were able to routinely get on bases even though their felony convictions came before they were issued entry credentials. “Numerous” contract employees received such credentials without proper vetting through authoritative databases such as the National Crime Information Center and the Terrorist Screening Databases, the report found. Plus, contractors were too easily allowed to get local day passes without the mandatory screening.

by artappraiser on Wed, 09/18/2013 - 1:31am

More on Aug. 7 delusions @ the NYT:

Suspect’s Past Fell Just Short of Raising Alarm
By Trip Gabriel, Jospeh Goldstein and Michael S. Schmidt, New York Times, Sept. 17/18, 2013

WASHINGTON — A month before a murderous rampage at the Washington Navy Yard, Aaron Alexis called the police in Rhode Island to complain that he had changed hotels three times because he was being pursued by people keeping him awake by sending vibrations through the walls.

When officers came to his hotel room early on Aug. 7, Mr. Alexis told them that a person he had argued with at an airport in Virginia “has sent three people to follow him” and that they were harassing him with a microwave machine, according to a Newport, R.I., police report. Mr. Alexis said he had heard “voices speaking to him through the wall, flooring and ceiling,” the report said.

Mr. Alexis told the police he was a Navy contractor, and then twice that month he sought treatment from the Veterans Affairs Department for psychiatric issues, according to a senior law enforcement official. But it did not raise a red flag that might have prevented him from entering the military base in Washington where, the authorities say, he killed 12 people on Monday.

The episode in Rhode Island adds to a growing list of questions about how Mr. Alexis, who had a history of infractions as a Navy reservist, mental health problems and run-ins with the police over gun violence, gained and kept a security clearance from the Defense Department that gave him access to military bases, including the navy yard, where he was shot to death by the police.

Time and again, Mr. Alexis’s behavior fell below a level that would have brought a serious response, like a less-than-honorable discharge from the military or involuntary commitment to a mental institution, experts and officials said.

But the sheer number of episodes raises questions about the government’s system for vetting people for security clearances [....]

by artappraiser on Wed, 09/18/2013 - 1:41am

note this damning addition to that story on page 2:

After the police in Newport responded to Mr. Alexis’ call for help on Aug. 7, a sergeant who reviewed the report, Frank C. Rosa Jr., contacted the Newport naval base police and faxed a copy of Mr. Alexis’s wild statements. It is unclear whether the account made it up the chain of command.

And there is more on his most recent treatment @ the VA:

On Aug. 23, Mr. Alexis went to Veterans Affairs hospitals in Providence, where he had been working as a contractor, complaining of insomnia but did not say that he was hearing voices, according to a senior federal official. Mr. Alexis said he could not sleep for more than a few hours. Doctors there prescribed him an antidepressant pill commonly prescribed for insomnia, Trazodone, the official said.

Five days later, Mr. Alexis went to a Veterans Affairs hospital in Washington, where he had traveled to work on a job at the Navy Yard. Mr. Alexis, who had not been given many Trazodone pills in Providence, said to the medical personnel in Washington that he was still having trouble sleeping and the doctors prescribed him more Trazodone, said the official.

In that meeting, Mr. Alexis told the medical personnel that he was not using drugs, did not have suicidal thoughts, was not depressed or particularly anxious, and was not having nightmares, the official said.

by artappraiser on Wed, 09/18/2013 - 1:49am

Three days before the Rhode Island incident, a paranoid confrontation with a family at an airport gate; airport security was called:

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/09/19/family-recounts-chilling-airport-en...

by artappraiser on Thu, 09/19/2013 - 12:16pm

Remembering the Victims @ WaPo

There is no rhyme or reason. Certainly not racial. The only thing is age, most in their 50's, youngest was 46.

Many heartbreaking stories, like

Arthur Daniels, 51..... labored as a handyman relocating and installing office furniture in federal government buildings around the region....He was shot in the back by the gunman as he was running away, witnesses said.....

This is the second time that his family has endured a random act of gun violence. In 2009, one of his sons — 14-year-old Arthur Daniels — was shot in the back. He was also running away from an armed man.

The person who shot him — Ransom Perry Jr. of Northeast Washington — had been arrested nine times before that, including as recently as January of that year, on a charge of carrying a pistol without a license.

In 2011, Perry, 21, pleaded guilty to second-degree murder and robbery charges related to the death of Arthur Daniels Jr. He was sentenced to 24 years in prison.

Priscilla Daniels wept through the night on Monday and into Tuesday, unable to find a reason for the loss of both son and father in a period of four years.....

by artappraiser on Wed, 09/18/2013 - 3:30am

Its so frustrating, and so tiring. No mass shooting is such clear evidence of the need and usefulness of gun control as this one. But nothing will happen.

We can make it much more difficult for irresponsible or dangerous people to get guns without infringing on the rights of responsible gun owners like me. We could have universal background checks. I went through one a few years ago when I bought a new rifle at Walmart. Its not a big deal. We could significantly reduce the illegal gun market and straw purchases.

Alexis should never have had a gun. Any one, just one, of his several illegal or "accidental" shootings should have led to his guns being confiscated and his banning from any further purchases. Unlike some of the other mass shootings, this one could likely have been stopped with sensible gun control

But nothing will be done. Its just so frustrating and tiring.

by ocean-kat on Wed, 09/18/2013 - 9:53pm

Different military base, different country, same shit:

The ABC7 I-Team investigates the surprise attack on a U.S. military compound, but it's not the deadly assault in Washington Monday. The I-Team has an exclusive look at an insurgent raid of Camp Bastion in Afghanistan one year ago.....

the sorry story continued @

Chicago Marine details deadly Taliban raid on Camp Bastion
By Chuck Goudie and Barb Markoff, September 19, 2013 (CHICAGO) (WLS)

Compare:

Anthony Meely, chairman of the Fraternal Order of Police's labor committee for the Navy Yard's officers, said in an interview that the force was woefully undermanned Monday because of government cutbacks, which may have led to additional deaths.

There were only six patrolmen on duty instead of 11, all were posted at the gates, and only two patrol cars were available, he said. The only officer on patrol inside the yard was the chief of police, who was the first to reach the building, Meely said. The chief could hear the shots ringing inside and saw the private security guard at one of the entrances, Meely said. The chief told the guard to unholster his weapon and be prepared to return fire, Meely said, and when the guard did, Alexis shot him.

The other officers had to run from the gates to the building, which took "precious time," Meely said, eight to 10 minutes. Then their radio batteries died, and officers had to fumble with cellphones to summon help, he said.

They could still hear shots inside, and finally some of them formed an "entry team" and started inside the building, the union leader said.

But adding to the confusion was that employees running away from the building gave conflicting reports, including accounts of more than one shooter, he said. "They were told about a person in a Hawaiian shirt. There was somebody with sideburns. There was somebody in a naval uniform."

Meely summed up: "I believe the security guard might still be alive if we had had adequate staffing." Instead, he said, "we were undermanned."

A Navy official, who asked not to be identified, responded with a statement: "This is absolutely something we are looking at. We are aware of the union's claims and they will be looked into as part of the review that has been ordered into the case."

from

Navy Yard shooter attacked 'calmly,' FBI chief says
By Richard A. Serrano, LA Times, September 19, 2013

by artappraiser on Fri, 09/20/2013 - 8:20pm

Wayne LaPierre says more 'good guys with guns' could have prevented rampage at DC navy yard that killed 12 people

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/sep/22/nra-wayne-lapierre-navy-yar...

by artappraiser on Sun, 09/22/2013 - 4:54pm

He is right.

Too bad the folks in Kenya, couldn't have defended themselves, against those with the intent to do bodily harm. Having to wait, for the police/military to arrive, is little comfort for the grieving loved ones.

It is the unwise; who don't understand; an unarmed man is no match; against someone armed with a weapon.

Knowing the troubled past of the naval yard shooter, he should have been locked away, in a mental facility or prison, until he could prove he was no longer a threat to society; instead of being ignored, like so many others, who cant be trusted with any type of instrument that can be be used as a weapon, even vehicular.

A man in his mental state, could have slammed a stolen. registered Ryder truck, into a shift changing crowd of workers.

But of course, those folks who are bent on infringing on legal gun owners, will never see, because they are blinded by their flawed logic. Never understanding; People kill People with all kinds of weapons.

A person who would kill another human being is nuts. Round them up; Identify them and gun violence would be reduced.

That is too simple of a solution, but it runs counter to the real objective, which is to go after the guns. Just as the British unleashed the savages, against the settlers/colonists; the current governance' objective, is better served, when the mentally unstable act savagely towards the citizens.

The fools ready to give up their freedom, bowing to to the king "Do something KING ~~George~~ Obama." protect us from the savages you've ~~unleashed"~~ Failed to restrain.

by Resistance on Mon, 09/23/2013 - 1:48am

Actually, since one can't always have one's firearm drawn when roving packs of heavily armed suicidal maniacs invade your favorite shopping arcade, and it's such a hard decision to decide which one of a group of four armed men to shoot first (harder than deciding on which Jimmy Choos to buy,) Vogue Magazine suggests: why not throw a couple hand grenades into your bag for hands-free shopping? And when taking the family for a birthday outing at the food court, should all the carrying hubbies start warring with gangs of suicidal jihadis, don't forget that armor-plated stroller...

by artappraiser on Mon, 09/23/2013 - 4:06pm

I recommend the feint of heart stay home. In this country, ex police officers and off duty officers are always armed, ready to serve and protect. The NRA promotes education and training.

Remove the suicidal maniacs from your midst, treat them if you can and if they do not respond, lock them up like the wild animals they act like. Wild bears are a threat in some communities, either they are relocated or put down,

Folks that love violence do not make good neighbors or friends. I expect more violence to be unleashed upon the good citizens; as more of the troops; who were taught to kill, return home; such is the price upon a society that promotes and is constantly at war with it's violent nature.

Violent Video game makers should be held liable for the seeds they have planted.

by Resistance on Mon, 09/23/2013 - 6:36pm

Remove the suicidal maniacs from your midst

Thank goodness they wear badges that can be spotted from afar.

It as at this point that your disgust with government collides with your desire that they get busy rounding up crazy people.

Or were you planning on the NRA doing that work instead?

by moat on Mon, 09/23/2013 - 8:53pm

Exactly moat. Though I suspect the enormity of the conumdrum for libertarians you point out well here is going to go way over Resistance's head. (Especially as when you get to his apparent belief that personal ownership of firearms is the solution to manhood, truth, democracy, freedom, security and crime--I'm sure I missed something else they solve for him---seems to exceed even his belief in the Bible.)

But I am interested in getting others to face this conundrum. And by "libertarians" I mean people interested in civil liberties. Everyone seems to be avoiding what it really means. Do they really truly realize what they are asking for by focusing on more forceful treatment of mental illness? Are we going to have a "back to the future" moment where people go back to fearing admitting any mental illness because of the loss of personal liberty/autonomy involved and the possible ruination of careers and lives? Do I need to mention how Soviet mental institutions were used once institutionalization started to be run in "the people's interest"? Then there's the medical records all being put online at the same time we find the government having access to anything they want online. Then there's the whole idea of forcing mind altering prescription drug treatment. And if you disallow fireman ownership because of their mental state, why should you allow them to drive a two-ton vehicle through the streets of a city?....etc., etc., etc.

Edit to add: For a minute I'd like to go back to the extra twisted conundrums Resistance's gun arguments raise. Are Muslim jihadis mentally ill? Then believers in the Bible and the American Revolution must be mentally ill, too? No guns for them. Where you end up: only guns for people that don't really want them?

by artappraiser on Mon, 09/23/2013 - 9:40pm

I will leave references to Resistance out of the following because he can speak for himself.

There are awful consequences to being classified as mentally ill. It is similar to having a criminal record but with less means to correct or qualify it when the designation is incorrect or stupidly harsh.

The right to privacy is an important thing to clarify. Maybe some of the problem comes from thinking it has already been hashed out when it has not.

I think we have to start over. Establish a baseline of what is unacceptable and work from there.

by moat on Mon, 09/23/2013 - 10:16pm

I have no disagreement with good government and good laws; in fact they are essential .

As for the lame proposal

they wear badges that can be spotted from afar.

If we had a good government, who would care for the mentally ill and would quarantine the suicidal maniacs from society, instead of harassing law abiding citizens, who want to exercise their Second Amendment rights to own a gun in order to protect themselves from the suicidal maniacs our government allows to roam amongst us.

Originally, our founding fathers set up a good government, established to protect the Bill of Rights. Now that very good government established to do the will and protect the rights of the governed, decides it no longer cares to be good,..... it has become corrupted and wants to usurp more power than WE the People granted it,

An enterprising group decides to grab away and steal more power than granted; taking for itself what rightfully belongs to the people.

If the government would properly deal with the mentally unstable people, instead of allowing them to be let loose, amongst society, in order that the very unstable create havoc, in order for a government turned corrupt. uses this havoc as a pretense to deprive people of their rights.

It serves a bad governments purpose, to ignore the needs of the mentally ill.

by Resistance on Mon, 09/23/2013 - 11:07pm

The reference to badges was not a proposal I was putting forward. It was a characterization of your proposal to round up and constrain the mentally ill as a method to make gun ownership less of a problem for society. Calling that characterization of your proposal lame means you accept the absurdity of it on some level. These people don't wear badges.

The contradiction your proposal embraces doesn't concern whether you think good government is possible or not. It concerns having an authority that you have often expressed a readiness to take up arms against should it violate your freedom carry out a policy of restricting the freedom of "maniacs."

You promote a Libertarianism interrupted by hot flashes of Fascism.

by moat on Tue, 09/24/2013 - 8:18pm

It was your mischaracterization, What is your solution on how to restrain maniacs or those wishing to do others harm? Chirp (cricket sounds). Besides attempting to infringe upon those who haven't violated any laws.

by Resistance on Wed, 09/25/2013 - 10:27am

It was your proposal, you tell me.

by moat on Wed, 09/25/2013 - 5:07pm

Licensing of the use of something dangerous is not "infringement." Locking people up for saying crazy stuff (like some people think you yourself do on the internet,) or acting crazy, before they do anything illegal, now that would be "infringement."

Many states have enacted solutions:

http://www.ncsl.org/issues-research/justice/possession-of-a-firearm-by-t...

but they do not work because it is not the same in all states. And because people can and do make straw purchases in some states for illegal resale which cannot be tracked.

by artappraiser on Wed, 09/25/2013 - 8:54pm

I recommend the feint of heart stay home.

Soooo -> Americans who do not want to carry guns really shouldn't go shopping, or work in a public place, or go to any public places. Basically, you want us to become Afghanistan.

by artappraiser on Mon, 09/23/2013 - 10:32pm

Where have you been Van Winkle? Ever hear of Chicago or Detroit and some of the other war zones cities; with some of the toughest gun laws on the books.

Go ahead you foolish ones; walk the streets unarmed. Then come crying back to those who warned you to get off the streets; they are not safe any more, and will never be again.

If you believe they will be, I've got a bridge to sell you.

by Resistance on Mon, 09/23/2013 - 11:04pm

Where have you been Van Winkle

The Bronx. I'm a 5'3" woman who feels free to walk alone at night under the elevated subway with no fear. Got my flu shot a couple days ago at the 24 hour Walgreen's that way, @ 3am, 14 blocks round trip, past lots of closed shops, a few open bodegas, and alcoholic smokers outside bars.

You have an irrational amount of fear. I think it would be wise for others to be afraid of you because you might shoot someone who said "boo!" Hopefully, you are the one that stays home all the time, holding your gun, in fear of an invasion by government or crooks. We don't allow them here unless licensed, and the authorities try real hard to get the illegal ones that are here off the streets.

by artappraiser on Mon, 09/23/2013 - 11:27pm

Were you talking to yourself the whole trip? Pushing a shopping cart full of cans and old rags Scaring folks into believing a screw was lose? Why would anyone mess with a person like that?

by Resistance on Tue, 09/24/2013 - 12:09am

Uncool.

by Bruce Levine on Tue, 09/24/2013 - 2:47am

Uncool? I think it would be a smart to throw off those seeking to do you harm .

Maybe you don't remember the account of King David who was being sought out by Sauls army? David put on old rags as clothing, started drooling and foaming his saliva from his mouth, when men approached him, saying the man looks like the David the King seeks, but this man is not he, leave him be.

So uncool, that you don't remember your history,before you slam me.

by Resistance on Tue, 09/24/2013 - 4:06am

I'm not slamming you Resistance on the basis of your views on firearms--honestly I am not--and I am willing to assume for the purpose of discussion that you honestly believe that AA and the rest of us and our kids should be armed for our own protection.

But I feel I owe this place for the patience it has shown to me when I have reacted, as I think in a way you are now (if you're really serious) when one feels as if he or she is swimming against a very strong tide and is not being listened to. The other alternative is that you enjoy this kind of banter, and then I stand behind Tmac's conclusion.

Believe me, I don't like being the one to take on the one with an unpopular view--not even in real life. But I also believe that you can do better than the mock and chide two step.

And I live in NYC and I've noticed more and more folks sleeping on streets and pushing shopping carts in the last couple of years. It's painful--it's a shame that all of us need to confront.

Time to make the doughnuts--peace.

by Bruce Levine on Tue, 09/24/2013 - 8:12am

I am wondering if our keyboard Dirty Harry would last long in the South Bronx or the rough parts of Oakland or Chicago.....?

A guy who obsessively imagines himself gripping his gun, and emerging triumphant as the blood exudes from the bullet ridden body of a not so quick on the draw miscreant, in an ultimate fight to the death.

I'm betting in reality, our gun obsessing superhero would be pushing that shopping cart, faking that gorilla walk, while looking for the fastest way out of town.

by NCD on Tue, 09/24/2013 - 10:58am

The quoted part of his comment is actually kinda incredible: for some reason he doesn't see that bad neighborhoods are bad neighborhoods because too many people have and use too many guns there. That before the sheriff rides into town and makes a lot of people put them away, you have the wild west.

Edit to add: I feel it necessary to do a shout out for the South Bronx here. Because it is no longer a wild west neighborhood, but it's been hard for them to shake off that old stereotype. Didn't want to let the old stereotype sit there unchallenged for others to read. It's still a poor neighborhood, with a few gang problems, but relatively quite safe.

by artappraiser on Tue, 09/24/2013 - 12:57pm

And quite naturally beautiful still, I think. South Bronx used to be the place to move to to get out of the Lower East Side.

by Bruce Levine on Tue, 09/24/2013 - 2:11pm

Stick to the issue, Resistance. Yes, this is uncool and not appreciated here.

by Ramona on Tue, 09/24/2013 - 8:35am

Think of the sound advice you gave me a couple weeks ago. AA. We've read both "sides" and most of us aren't dumb. Let it ride.

by Bruce Levine on Tue, 09/24/2013 - 2:27am

Bslev: That's what I was planning on doing until you guys jumped in. I was continuing the conversation because I wanted to be sure of what I suspected he thought. Yes, everyone can see it now: he really does think we should all be armed. He is that afraid of the world out there.

Reminded me of Bernard Goetz. Made me think of how maybe we in NYC have taken for granted the incredible safety we have had in most of NYC the last decade.

The bag lady quip didn't bother me, guys! I take it like you did, it's a slur on bag ladies. (And I know I am not one.) And again, I have trust in sensible readers seeing that. The point to takeaway,mho: there are people out there like Resistance, who react to reading the news this way: we must all be armed. The news about violence basically scares the shit out of them, into a paranoid state. And they vote.

by artappraiser on Tue, 09/24/2013 - 11:11am

It was not a slur on bag ladies. Although Bs lev fails to connect the dots, when writing about the shame, about how people treat them or ignore them?? something one might find as defense from harassment from strangers in the daylight or nighttime; but even Ramona failed to grasp my intent, instead looking to find trouble, where there was none intended

So again it was over your heads. ...BIG DEAL

I remember the quote " the taking of offense lies in the heart of the stupid ones" for who really hasn't offended another with a slip of the tongue. HAVE YOU?

I was empathizing with the poor families in Chicago, who cant even take their kids to the park, without babies getting shot, and you AA, painting a picture of you skipping down 14 blocks and by the tone of your comment, I pictured you whistling and singing La La La too, as though you were mocking and showing insensitivity towards those who live in the war zones, and you with the attitude What me Worry?

As for the rest of the comments painting a picture of me being in fear,... far from it, There won't be no trouble from me, unless that's what your looking for. Dont start no shite and there won't be none.

Preparedness is always the key to survival; but the foolish always, ignore this admonition.

As the days go by, my message will be vindicated, and that my warnings to others, to be prepared for the days ahead; were met only with mocking and derision, proving the point "although they have eyes they cant see" having ears but they cant hear"

When trouble starts, I'll guarantee you, NCD and others won't be there to defend you or your family.

Violence is not abating; in fact; the conditions that lead to the violence, is going from bad to worse everyday. People wanting to ignore the warnings, doesn't affect me one way or the other.

Hopefully their are some who will see the worsening conditions and prepare themselves not acting like the fools are are destined to perish.

People who fail to plan, plan to fail, they will be the first casualties.

by Resistance on Tue, 09/24/2013 - 1:26pm

Hadiya Pendleton would still have died if she were armed. Her friends would have died if they attempted to draw weapons and return fire against someone who already had guns drawn rather than run.

The four children who died in Birmingham 50 years ago would have still died if they were armed because guns would not have protected them against a bomb. We read stories daily for people who shoot other people because weapons are left out in the open exposed to children.

Most people are more afraid of being mowed down by nuts like George Zimmerman than feel the need to be armed to protect themselves from a crime.if you are that afraid, build a shelter that will be submerged in the next flood in your area.Arm yourself with multiple weapons and risk shooting a neighbor or relative knocking on the door in the early hours of the morning.

Prepare for your imaginary Armageddon. The rest of us are planning to live our lives in reality.

by rmrd0000 on Tue, 09/24/2013 - 2:49pm

you have only got to half of the lunacy of his arguments. Upthread @ 6:36 he says Remove the suicidal maniacs from your midst, treat them if you can and if they do not respond, lock them up like the wild animals they act like. Wild bears are a threat in some communities, either they are relocated or put down,

So basically it's an argument that we should lock up people in order to keep gun purchases from being registered. If they guns were licensed and registered across the country, they could be restricted from all those dangerous people. But he'd rather the government lock lots of people up according to the government's judgment of their mental health, in order to keep gun ownership secret from the government.

Now let's ask Mr. Patrick Henry ("give me liberty or give me death") which do you prefer? Being refused a gun license. or being locked up for an indetermined period by the government in an institution for some things you said and did in public that some people thought were crazy?

by Anonymous (not verified) on Tue, 09/24/2013 - 5:01pm

You can only address so much at one time

On the issue of poverty, here is the word from God

~~Matthew 25:31-46~~

~~New International Version (NIV)~~

~~The Sheep and the Goats~~

31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

~~40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’~~

41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

~~44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’~~

~~45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’~~

~~46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.~~

The more conservative Paul said

He who does not work, neither shall he eat

(from II Thessalonians 3:10).

So God says treat the poor with compassion. Treat prisoners with compassion. Treat the sick with compassion.

The phrase from Paul was a favorite of Karl Marx and is now the phrase championed by the Tea Party and the wingnuts,. It is an abomination. The Republicans want the poor and sick to hurry up and die. The prophet Ezekiel noted that Sodom was destroyed because it treated the poor harshly. Ezekiel did not mention homosexuality as the cause for Sodom's destruction.

the poor and in need deserve better from those who consider ourselves Christians.i

by rmrd0000 on Tue, 09/24/2013 - 5:59pm

This was in response to arguments resistance has made on another issue aid to the poor.

by rmrd0000 on Tue, 09/24/2013 - 6:19pm

I recommend the feint of heart stay home...
by Resistance 9/23/2013 - 6:36 pm

Re: Violence is not abating

Where people have guns.

Where they don't, it's like this:

Overall, the city's murder rate this year is down 23%, reaching levels last seen in 1960.

It's really that simple, no matter how you try to rationalize your gun giving you power over "them," you are just contributing to the problem. You are adding to endangerment of your own family's health rather than protecting it. Guns for hunting and other sports, ok. Guns for protection are not ok, as they equal rising violence and crime, crimes of passion and temper, get to be an easy way of solving arguments with violence. No plotting necessary, just shoot when you're scared or angry. Soon enough everybody's shot dead.

I started out this sub-thread by making fun of your suggestion that individual people try and shoot gangs of terrorists in a shopping mall. That's really just so hilarious. It just took the Kenyan army 4 days to put those guys down. Anyone trying it by their lonesome would have been long dead. You clearly and many times on this site have shown yourself to have a ridiculous, laughable belief about how a gun can protect you rather than what one most often does-get people in trouble if not dead. It's almost like you think you could have shot the 9/11 planes out of the sky.

It's amazing how you can't see how ridiculously irrational and contradictory your arguments about this look to others and how you often get cognitive dissonancet o any facts regarding it all

I can only advise that if you really truly care about protecting gun ownership, you'll shut up about it on the internet and let Wayne Pierre do the work. You only hurt your case.

by artappraiser on Tue, 09/24/2013 - 2:50pm

Sorry I jumped in AA. Another insomniac night, because I just had a hearing that was driving me nuts and so I Dag'd and saw that. I know you need not be told how to behave!

by Bruce Levine on Tue, 09/24/2013 - 2:12pm

You gotta let go of such things (on the internet that is) getting your temper up personally, mho. Also of taking them personally. If that's what's happening, that's when you should stop and let your previous statements stand for themselves. But if you're simply still trying to learn something about a commenter's beliefs and how they think or or getting some other kind of knowledge out of it, there's no valid reason to stop if you don't want to. If it's just a continuous repeat of something argued before, there is no reason for a constant rehash (though even those I scroll over rather than vigorously object to, and I'd advise others that this one I've been having with Resistance, they might want to do that because it's a lot of same old same old. ) And always keep in mind that if it appears hurtful or mean to you, it will appear hurtful and mean to others, res ipsa loquitor.

by artappraiser on Tue, 09/24/2013 - 3:00pm

At Least Two Gunmen Involved in Shooting in DC Naval Yard--Still Going On

Comments

Sections

Bloggers