MURDER, POLITICS, AND THE END OF THE JAZZ AGE
by Michael Wolraich
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[CHAUVIN CASE & related MINNEAPOLIS news] 3-alarm church fire
By artappraiser on Mon, 04/19/2021 - 10:56pm |
URL:
https://twitter.com/IntelPointAlert/status/1384305265646837773?s=20
- 13853 reads
Comments
by artappraiser on Mon, 04/19/2021 - 10:59pm
more similar at his feed
by artappraiser on Mon, 04/19/2021 - 11:02pm
Wow, retweet at the top of Minneapolis PD twitter feed right now
this was the same time the Brooklyn Center PD was quite busy with protests
The killing of Daunte Wright: One dead in police shooting in Brooklyn Center; tear gas deployed to clear protesters
MPR News Staff, Nina Moini and Tim Nelson Brooklyn Center, Minn. Updated: April 12, 6:05 a.m. | Posted: April 11, 5:08 p.m.
by artappraiser on Mon, 04/19/2021 - 11:17pm
by artappraiser on Mon, 04/19/2021 - 11:27pm
video of where the judge denied defense's motion for a mistrial but really did at the same time sort of bash Maxine Waters for her behavior
by artappraiser on Mon, 04/19/2021 - 11:47pm
The Hill-Harris X did a poll on Chauvin trial, results published April 19
by artappraiser on Tue, 04/20/2021 - 12:07am
Guilty of what, based on which details/evidence, minus all the emotions and amateur mind/stare-reading, based kind of both on standard police behavior plus how police should behave.
What role did the other police play & should have played?
How many minutes into the hold should they have pulled back. What signs should they have recognized.
Since they knew Floyd was a junkie and saw him freaking out, could imagine him swallowing his stash while not leaving the car, etc, they had some obligation to deal with him as a potential medical case.
I still wonder about the fatality of pressing only 1 carotid artery, not 2, and whether that came up in trial. To a large extent there's a lot of 20/20 hindsight, Monday morning quarterbacking, plus police breaking the blue wall to describe a somewhat unbelievable world of friendly by-the-book policing and rules.
Also via "Talking to Strangers", did Chauvin have some implicit/explicit authority, some upper position in hierarchy that made other cops hesitant to speak up, defer to his judgment.
The social media case sees an intent to kill. Somehow I don't think guys sitting around with hands in pockets are intending to kill. They seem to think they have things under control, and detaining a suspect peacefully on the ground or in the car is normally endgame. I don't think the cops would be particularly angry in a not-very-violent encounter, even though their pulse would be a bit raised after the scuffle to handcuff him & get him on the ground - nothing like an ordeal with weapons or a fight or other adrenalin situation.
Most of us never considered danger to breathing of a man on the ground, on chest or a bit on side - it may not be comfortable on asphalt, but it's how we sleep, and 10 mins waiting for help doesn't seem absurd. The knee on neck to immobilize is the only real consideration for us, and whether full weight was used, or if Chauvin shifted and had it on non-artery points during those minutes (and whether the jury sees non-continuous pressure), and again, would single side pressure be expected to cause the results the medical examiners saw, alone or in combination with other pre-existing or current adrenalin freakout.
Also, was there any indication that Floyd swallowed or butt inserted more drugs when the police came (undissolved in stomach or...)
What the jury thinks is another question. I was surprised the defense team put on so little, and the exhaust carbon monoxide ploy seemed off considering everything else. Did anyone ever explain the significance of Floyd shouting "I can't breathe" when trying to get him in the back seat? Did the jury consider that Floyd's exaggerations there could have made the cops take him less seriously later?
The video the other day, where the suspect complains the cops are grabbing his balls, and then it turns out he has a pistol hidden there and it turns into a bloody shootout - suspects say a lot of bullshit along with anything accurate. How much of this did the jury register (with little related evidence presented to this fact?)
The seemingly innocuous "my Mama just died" when she tied 2 years before still perks my ears - either he was a total bullshitter, or he was a destroyed emotional wreck - i tend towards the latter interpretation, which doesn't mean Floyd was a particularly nice guy despite the hagiography - Al Capone prolly loved his mother, but just there's a bigger Eleanor Rigby thing there - ah look at all the messed up people. He wasn't a BLM arsonist - he was a consistent whacked out largely petty criminal with sometimes quite abusive behavior. There are tons running around. Whatever happens to Chauvin, how do we deal with this mass if undesirables? It's not like vocational schools gonna do the trick, though *maybe* some better enlightened drug rehab can make most symptoms go away.
Besides all the shooting and arson, there's still the amount of time police spend on fairly petty crime - here we're 4 cops plus ambulance spending say 45-60 minutes plus hospital resources on a minor case if Floyd hadn't died. rmrd glibly suggested putting up camera at stop signs, but how many? 360 cams *per sign side* (+who will weatherproof?), Where's the power come from, where's the data get stored, what kind of additional 5G needs to be installed, how many intersections? Who will monitor all these? What will it all cost vs mental health experts or other solutions?
by PeraclesPlease on Tue, 04/20/2021 - 2:15am
this is the main thing: suspects say a lot of bullshit along with anything accurate
The older you get, the more con artists you've met and you realize what a tough job they've got along those exact lines..You've basically got to be an empath to do a great job at it instead of relying on standard profiling most humans do, often wrong.. And the brightest bulbs on the block don't want the job, so there's that too.
but what the prosecution said: Chauvin's heart is too small, that's what I think most people see here, the way he did it, so arrogant, not what he did. He just seems like a real nasty guy, unlike many other cops. Now normally you don't want to judge a job applicant so much on personality, but with a cop? Especially in this zeitgeist? Remember he's a cop, supposedly working with a public innocent until proven guilty, not a prison guard working with convicted perps.
Go back to this splainer about the charges
by artappraiser on Tue, 04/20/2021 - 3:09am
I know that is the generally-accepted myth but it makes no sense. Cops arrest* people. That's presumption of guilt on their part. But they are required to prove it in a court of law (unless they catch then release). It is the court that presumes innocence. No?
by EmmaZahn on Tue, 04/20/2021 - 5:55am
Cops can't profile on race (or shouldn't), but they can certainly profile on repeat offenders.
Though this WaPo story notes a number of things that might be wrong with that approach
(often cops use the rap sheet instead of any evidence), there were certainly a lot of run-ins that were accurate.
Even a similar "Mama Mama" crying episode a year before.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2020/national/george-floyd-ameri...
I can believe negligence, but still have trouble with intent.
ETA - Snopes takes on Floyd's arrest record
by PeraclesPlease on Tue, 04/20/2021 - 6:18am
Sorry, I was musing generally, not specifically to the Floyd case. I find it difficult to closely follow the trial. Too unsettling -- "nobody's right if everybody's wrong". Not you, of course.
by EmmaZahn on Tue, 04/20/2021 - 7:07am
I'm just juggling the variables - think I'm still leaning towards manslaughter, but not my call, nor do I have all the details.
But my remark re rap sheets and the presumption of innocence is largely true. Cops & detectives are in general out to find culprits, solve crimes, justify bringing charges, not so much to let everyone off the hook. Obviously if no one actually looks guilty with a bit closer look, they shouldn't just run the rap sheet. But people are humans, flawed, etc.
by PeraclesPlease on Tue, 04/20/2021 - 7:29am
FWIW I just heard some big wig on tv, maybe the police chief of Minneapolis, say they don't want to arrest people, last thing they want to do, they appreciate that a lot of people need to express grief right now through peaceful protest. Yadda yadda. Far more kumbaya than I would be, if I were in charge, it would be 24/7 curfew until y'all calm down and get rational, your choice of at home or in jail.
Made me think about something else related: how many NYC type cops in reality and movies say last thing they want to do is arrest someone, cause the paperwork then is a bitch. They really just do a harass thing instead to try to keep order.
And how many of the major problems may arise when a Barney Phyfe type in a less urban environment is just chomping at the bit to go gung ho.
That doesn't solve the problem of young males thinking harassment is unfair though. Harassment is a necessary part of "broken windows", cops harass the squegee guys and the young males hanging out on the street corner, and the person they stop in traffic. The whole idea is: fear putting yourself in a position where you might get harassed by a cop, just behave.What are you, 13 yr. old, doing hanging out with this older guy that looks like trouble at this time of night? Maybe trying to buy a gun, huh? How about going home instead, hurry along...
by artappraiser on Tue, 04/20/2021 - 1:48pm
In theory, it's prolly most important that they're holding this trial with a cop for real. In practice no one gives a damn about my theory.
by PeraclesPlease on Tue, 04/20/2021 - 3:52pm
as just another person answering the pollster or reading this story in a novel, and not a juror, my knee-jerk reaction is that there's no intent at all.
Unless you define intent as him being an arrogant jerk who hates his job and constantly grumbles about having to deal with another scumbag. I sense no prejudicial intent at all, I sense that he would probably do the same thing to his teenage son if the kid was acting out. I think he's probably a little like Travis Bickle in Taxi Driver in that he thinks we need to clean all the scum off the streets, and that a lot of people out there are scum.. He also yells at kids to get off his lawn all the time.
Is he a murderer? No! He'd especially not intentionally murder someone with a crowd watching him and some filming them with their cell phones. Actually, he wanted to impress everyone watching that he was the alpha who knew how to handle things like this.
Do I like it that he's a cop on the street? No! I don't want to pay the salaries of cops like this, I hope they get fired before they make shit worse and I would like them made an example of by being further punished.
But I sure as hell also would wish he not become a racial story for the whole fucking country and I don't think he should represent all police as regards supposed systemic problems.
Actually he strikes me as exactly one of the types of person that shouldn't be allowed to have a license for a gun, much less be allowed to be a cop.
But I'm not a judge or jury. I'd have to erase all those presumptions if I were. I'd probably voice them at voir dire, though, so that I wouldn't be selected to serve on this jury, cause that would be like pure hell.
by artappraiser on Tue, 04/20/2021 - 1:28pm
He kept applying pressure after Floyd had no pulse.
Chauvin was aware of the circumstances.
by rmrd0000 on Tue, 04/20/2021 - 1:35pm
Right, he was intent on killing someone while all those people were watching him. If so, defense lawyer should have gone for insanity.
by artappraiser on Tue, 04/20/2021 - 1:51pm
From Star Tribune
https://www.startribune.com/expert-that-s-the-moment-the-life-goes-out-of-his-body-derek-chauvin-kept-knee-on-neck-for-31-2-minu/600043531/
Chauvin is a training officer. The crowd saw that he was murdering Floyd. Chauvin threatened to mace the crowd. What other endpoint could Chauvin expect from keeping neck pressure on a pulseless, nonbreathing person?
by rmrd0000 on Tue, 04/20/2021 - 2:08pm
What did the medical examiner say Floyd's 2nd cortoid artery was doing while Chauvin had his knee somewhere around the 1st? Did that medical examiner say why Floyd was complaining about breathing in the back seat?
by PeraclesPlease on Tue, 04/20/2021 - 2:26pm
similar thing going on with Officer Sicknick's medical examiner, i.e., what caused those strokes? they are in the business of the cut and dried thing for paperwork and the real "cause" of death is often not cut and dried.
by artappraiser on Tue, 04/20/2021 - 2:50pm
The SOB that he complained of in the prone position is the only position is the only one that matters
You do not have to compress both carotids to have hemodynamic effect
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK559059/
by rmrd0000 on Tue, 04/20/2021 - 2:53pm
medical examiner cannot read Chavin's mind including that he does not know how much medical knowledge Chauvin has, is not his business.
by artappraiser on Tue, 04/20/2021 - 2:53pm
Chauvin is a training officer
Floyd lost his pulse
CPR should have begun
by rmrd0000 on Tue, 04/20/2021 - 2:58pm
CSH, eh? Hemodynamic effect?
by PeraclesPlease on Tue, 04/20/2021 - 3:18pm
You yammer about a Mercedes SUV and complaints of SOB before he was prone
You ask what the other carotid was doing,
It did not have to do anything.
The jurors heard from a pulmonologist. I'm satisfied with his testimony
At any rate, Chauvin did not let people with better medical training than his intervene.
You are biased towards Chauvin
by rmrd0000 on Tue, 04/20/2021 - 3:30pm
The Mercedes is about where the dealer's getting his money, or the question of whose car it is. Complaints of no breathing getting out of the car? Why exactly. Why trouble breathing before he got on the ground. As Colombo used to say, "there's one little thing that keeps bothering me"
rmrd just wants a conviction - all else is an annoyance and a travesty
by PeraclesPlease on Tue, 04/20/2021 - 3:38pm
I lost a dear dear friend at age 58, strapping tall healthy muscular gay guy, born of wisconsin farm country, dropped dead of an asthma attack after his daily morning jog. Few even knew he had asthma, you never would have guessed.
by artappraiser on Tue, 04/20/2021 - 3:43pm
I'd guess they largely know how to control it, but still doesn't keep it from being dangerous or misfiring at whatever moment.
by PeraclesPlease on Tue, 04/20/2021 - 3:49pm
Chauvin might have pulled back when Floyd lost his pulse.
by rmrd0000 on Tue, 04/20/2021 - 9:45am
I think I've said that a dozen times, including the other officers' responsibility, which is why I think a manslaughter charge might be warranted for negligence.
by PeraclesPlease on Tue, 04/20/2021 - 9:56am
Keeping his knee on the neck and threatening to pepper spray the "crowd" was intentional.
by rmrd0000 on Tue, 04/20/2021 - 10:47am
President Biden
https://www.cnn.com/us/live-news/derek-chauvin-trial-04-20-21/
by rmrd0000 on Tue, 04/20/2021 - 12:42pm
It is irresponsible. The jury has a focused job to do, evaluating information for several weeks, thinking of little else. Us on the outside only have a glimpse of the proceedings, and are not in the continual contemplation of the full picture, including the law and the concerns of making sure reasonable doubt is handled. A man is on trial. Sidestepping legal protections and presumptions in trial of innocence does not help our system in any way, even if you think being right is better than following sound process. Chauvin is on trial not because of the outcome, but because of the process. If the jury feels he violated the demands of his duty, inserted his own vigilante or negligent process, he's going to jail. But in any trial, that is based not just on facts, but the limits of our knowledge and data, and the benefit of doubt called "presumption of innocence". Obviously even if Chauvin is found innocent, people will hold opinions, and some will be valid, since reasonable analysis does not have to work from the presumption of innocence - only trials do. But we do often overestimate our abilities at informed decisions - note that Trump got roughly half the vote twice, as one stat to ponder, and many of those dismiss the Capitol Hill attack as a lie.
by PeraclesPlease on Tue, 04/20/2021 - 1:04pm
Biden offers a n opinion as do the rest of us.
The jury is now sequestered
It is obvious that the jury will determine Chauvin's fate.
by rmrd0000 on Tue, 04/20/2021 - 1:41pm
Biden is not "the rest of us". He is the President, and needs to set the tone and expectation of legality and the ability to pull learning and wisdom out of even adverse outcomes. Look at Bobby Kennedy's speech when MLK was killed - it tamped down revenge, it appealed to both reason and forgiveness, our better angels. I've had this talk with my kids - siemtimea it's better to lose, sometimes thats better at pulling the wisdom and shift of approach together. Or simply that our systems will fail in some cases, but will work better if we support and improve them, rather than just complaining when they don't go out way. Chauvin at this point is a symbol. Don't confuse the point with the percentage.
by PeraclesPlease on Tue, 04/20/2021 - 2:35pm
It is 2021
Biden realizes that we witnessed a homicide at the hands of Chauvin.
The system has to come through this time.
Edit to add:
Not guilty means police have nothing to fear when they kill unarmed people.
by rmrd0000 on Tue, 04/20/2021 - 4:30pm
wrong: Not guilty means police have nothing to fear when they kill unarmed people. He went through robust prosecution by our legal system. That is the deterrent.
by artappraiser on Tue, 04/20/2021 - 4:36pm
Not guilty means he could be hired by another police department.
by rmrd0000 on Tue, 04/20/2021 - 4:53pm
Law & Crime's headline writer interestingly agrees with you, PP:
Biden Ignores Derek Chauvin’s Trial Judge, Comments on Verdict While Jury Deliberates
AARON KELLERApr 20th, 2021, 12:33 pm
by artappraiser on Tue, 04/20/2021 - 4:40pm
Twitter account of Minnesota OSN (Minnesota Operation Safety Net):
@MinnesotaOSN
The official source for law enforcement information during the #ChauvinTrial. A join effort between multiple law enforcement agencies. #MNOSN
Minneapolis, Minnesota safetynet.mn.gov Joined February 2021 6,930 Followers
this tweet from today caught my eye:
but this one was just a :"huh? say what?"
by artappraiser on Tue, 04/20/2021 - 2:49am
Minnesota man & dog say goodbye
by PeraclesPlease on Tue, 04/20/2021 - 2:56am
I saw that but didn't know where to put it. Sweet,. I thought; what a great gent. And at the same time, how lucky he was to be able to "settle up" like that before going; most people don't get that chance.
by artappraiser on Tue, 04/20/2021 - 3:14am
Yeah, exactly my thoughts.
by PeraclesPlease on Tue, 04/20/2021 - 3:36am
a verdict in the Chauvin trial has been reached: MSNBC tv a few minutes ago, as per announcement from court. To be read between 3:30 pm and 5 pm local time
by artappraiser on Tue, 04/20/2021 - 3:26pm
So shortly people will be forced to focus again on the current reality of mass quantities of people being maimed and murdered every day. They could, however, go on to focus on blaming other individual police in order to avoid reality.
How about trying this fictional character for a symbol instead: evil personified, the source of all our troubles, or not?
by artappraiser on Tue, 04/20/2021 - 3:37pm
by artappraiser on Tue, 04/20/2021 - 4:06pm
brings to mind that the preparedness or not of other cities might be making news:
I find that a sad fact, that one case could cause more outrage and interest than like a large percentage of 550,000 of fellow citizens killed by government negligence.
by artappraiser on Tue, 04/20/2021 - 4:19pm
by artappraiser on Tue, 04/20/2021 - 5:07pm
by artappraiser on Tue, 04/20/2021 - 5:09pm
is true, I just turned it on to check:
Right now some woman is blathering about Chauvin getting total due process despite everyone, including her, hating him. He wasn't tried by video on social media. And now a guy is saying he's proud of the U.S., he's a lawyer and he's never been prouder of our justice system
by artappraiser on Tue, 04/20/2021 - 5:25pm
oops well that was before the Tucker showed up to furnish the correct talking points and directed where the narrative should go:
by artappraiser on Tue, 04/20/2021 - 10:07pm
they're really struggling with the fair and balanced thing over there:
by artappraiser on Tue, 04/20/2021 - 10:49pm
Tuckers got the nitrous out it appears
by PeraclesPlease on Wed, 04/21/2021 - 12:25am
by artappraiser on Tue, 04/20/2021 - 5:28pm
by artappraiser on Tue, 04/20/2021 - 7:38pm
by artappraiser on Tue, 04/20/2021 - 7:09pm
Asian-American accessory?
by artappraiser on Tue, 04/20/2021 - 7:20pm
oh and on Officer Kueng
The Black Officer Who Detained George Floyd Had Pledged to Fix the Police
Alex Kueng is one of four former officers accused of crimes in the killing of Mr. Floyd, which happened on his third shift. His decision to join the force had frayed friendships.
by Kim Barker @ NYTimes.com, Sept. 15, 2020
the police officers arrested in the death of George
Floyd, held a photo of Mr. Kueng and his siblings
when they were younger.
Credit...Victor J. Blue for The New York Times
by artappraiser on Tue, 04/20/2021 - 7:35pm
by artappraiser on Tue, 04/20/2021 - 7:24pm
Translation:
Chauvin is one case
Now we move on to Brooklyn Center
Edit to add:
Obamas: Chauvin Jury 'Did The Right Thing' But 'We Cannot Rest'
https://www.npr.org/sections/trial-over-killing-of-george-floyd/2021/04/20/989292501/obamas-chauvin-jury-did-the-right-thing-but-we-cannot-rest
by rmrd0000 on Tue, 04/20/2021 - 8:04pm
TRUMP PROMISED BLACKS A PLATINUM PLAN!
AOC?
by NCD on Tue, 04/20/2021 - 8:14pm
Black Lives Matter figures nows the time to start lecturing Joe and Kamala about how they got it all wrong:
by artappraiser on Tue, 04/20/2021 - 8:32pm
by Orion on Wed, 04/21/2021 - 1:30pm
Alternate juror in Huffpost didn't provide much new except that the prosecution largely made it's case methodically, i clueing when loss ilof life occurred while defense promised much more than it delivered, which was my impression. (The case largely ignored the $20 bill as irrelevant, which seems fitting).
These comments struck me as a good summary:
Even tho Malcolm Gladwell points out nicely the folly of trying to interpret things like the look on someone's face - the need for CPR was her expertise.
The plus sides about the Chauvin trial were that it involved a slow act, rather than judging cops on split second decisions, it broke the Blue Wall of Silence (though I'm skeptical of the statements re what standard procedure or policing as everyday practice), and it did deflate Qualified Immunity, which was way overbroad (though a lot of work will have to be done to replace that assumption with workable rules - lots of opinions out there, man naive and kneejerk, and not promoting safety at a time of weird gun-unflated craziness)
by PeraclesPlease on Fri, 04/23/2021 - 12:59am
Interesting point about Gladwell and facial expressions, because: he's in the biz of trying to help people navigate life more skillfully than most people do. But our jury system is just built on "peers" considered to be ordinary citizens, and they are allowed to do that and anything else people regularly do. Because any "experts" being presented to them, they are also presumed to be spinning, not totally objective, as it's an advocacy system. The group consensus is supposed to be the safeguard, i.e., like in the movie "12 Angry Men", where the one stubborn guy convinces all 11 others to look harder change their mind. That's where the prejudicial, knee-jerk or faulty reads are supposed to be counteracted. Is why both sides have input in picking the jurors.
by artappraiser on Fri, 04/23/2021 - 3:16pm
Law & Crime video interview with Chauvin juror (a young black male one) about deliberations:
by artappraiser on Thu, 04/29/2021 - 4:00pm
Feds plan to indict Chauvin, other three ex-officers on civil rights charges
by artappraiser on Thu, 04/29/2021 - 7:20pm