The Bishop and the Butterfly: Murder, Politics, and the End of the Jazz Age

    Look

    I'll follow my party, dammit.  I'll vote like a good little Dem.  But anyone who keeps commenting on this site about how we need to be herded like good little Dem cats has to hear a lot from us who never liked the Clintons and who want something more.

    Let the debates occur, and let Bernie - and the others - be heard. 

    We who wanted Obama had the PUMA's and everything else before we had to make our votes - and even after! - so shut up and let us do our research.

    Let us look at other candidates, let us consider other options. 

    Let us LOOK!

     

    Comments

    Who are you talking to, Lis? You seem angry, but I don't know of anyone here who has given you reason to be so defensive of your support for Sanders. There are, presumably, actually more here at Dag who support him than those who prefer Hillary. And those of us who do support her also acknowledge the importance of Bernie's campaign, and the difference it's made within the party (begun, of course, by Elizabeth Warren). At least so far, here, being for Clinton does not mean being against Sanders.

    Have you seen otherwise? Excluding critical scrutiny that all campaigns/candidates should undergo?


    Something I remember from the 2007/08 election cycle, that the poles were all over the place before the Iowa caucuses voted.  

    So don't take the up and down poles as who is winning and losing, just watch the direction things are trending in. 


    You want us to shut up?  Lol.  You talking to us?

    Ha ha.  I don't think so!


    We have to loooooooooook.

    This is not Boss Tweed times for chrissakes.

    Sometime I wish to speak about Representative Nolan up in these parts.

    I thought, hell, this place aint never goin to turn repub.

    And yet it did.

    Until Nolan came out of retirement and replaced a teabagger.

    And by the way, the new lies perpetrated by the teabaggers lately, are the same I witnessed four years ago.

    How in the hell they talked Nolan into coming back is beyond me.

    Webb was one of those who saved our party.

    So were other more 'conservative' dems.

    There are dangerous politicians out there, for sure.

    Cruz could destroy Democracy as we know it.

    Rand Paul could sign bills abolishing SS, Medicare, Medicaid....

    Bush would do the same damn things.

    I am too old to be too afraid.

    Speak out, write out, but vote.

    That is all we got.

    Nice thoughts.

     


    I think I understand where you are coming from LisB.  I don't think Hillary supporters understand because they and their candidate are not being treated the way Bernie and his supporters, or the other candidates for that matter, have been treated.

    I don't know how to get across to others that I have never seen the corporate media, establishment, DNC, and pundits all so united in elevating a candidate and diminishing other candidates from the beginning as I have in this election cycle.  

    There have been studies that showed Bernie has definitely not been given the media coverage a candidate with his level of support would expect to get in comparison with others.  There definitely has been a powerful energy of coronation in my view where Hillary is concerned.  I don't think you would notice it if you were a Hillary supporter.  

    There were DNC officers raising money for Hillary, poor media coverage, constant barrage of establishment Dems and pundits telling us HIllary is a given etc. Then the very small number of debates beginning after the registration deadline in NY which felt very much like they were intended to favor Hillary and disadvantage others.  

    It has been weird.  I don't know that I've ever experienced anything like this.  And it's also hard for me because I don't at all get the appeal of Hillary as a candidate.  

    Bernie is doing better than Obama was at this point back in 2007.  With corporations so behind Hillary and Bernie going right after Big $, I don't think we should pay too much attention to the ups and downs of polls.  It is harder to get accurate polling these days too.  

    We have very active Bernie Volunteers here in CO and they are already canvassing, flyering, etc. and have been since July.  

    I hope some Hillary supporters might read this and try to understand there is an unprecedented 'push' for Hillary and for those of us that don't choose her it feels offensive.  I don't want to react by doing the same to them.  Trying to understand but won't be voting for her even if she is the Dem nominee.  She does not represent me and I am done with the status quo. 


    well, okay, someone wants to rumble, we'll spice it up.

    It's rather whiny and unrealistic to think that Hillary wouldn't have a huge leap on most any candidate unless they were exciting, electable fresh blood. But there ain't. A bunch of 70-year-olds with a threat of another 70-year old jumping in as "excitement"?

    She looked pretty good 8 years ago but barely lost, did her time, and she's still standing and this time she nailed down the endorsements, policy positions, donations + PAC, the 50-state game, lots of things she screwed up last time. & you think the reward is to be smeared with "Inevitable 2.0"?

    If I recall correct, Corporate Media has played up both the Bernie rallies and pushed hard on Joe Biden to enter. Maybe you and Jim Webb can get together to file a complaint about lack of exposure, but I remember the days when 3 debates was considered quite enough - the only reason to have more than 6 debates is just hoping someone will obviously flub & burn out through repeated exposure.

    Maybe Bernie is doing better than Obama at this time, but it's a false equivalence. First, Obama was a rising star at the 2004 convention, next-gen stuff. And you can go to Wikipedia to see all the then competitive candidates and possibles - there was no early lockup with that slate. Howard Dean who invented the internet campaigning model, Bill Richardson - up-and-coming Hispanic demographic, Biden, Edwards, Chris Dodd, Wesley Clark - our clumsy but serious-about-security guy... some unexcitement in that bunch, but 8 years earlier were still a bit fresh. Hillary *won* the popular vote in 2008 - over 18 million people already voted for her *for President*. Since she didn't burn out and a lot of people still think of her as the strongest contender by far - she certainly has the most name recognition, is already quite familiar to 50 states that already voted for her. Jesse Jackson did quite a bit better his second run - why would you think Hillary would lose her momentum, having kept busy with her stint at State and no one else new coming along?

    You also ignore the difference between the black/minority-vs-female blocs in 2008 that now is simply the glass ceiling for women.  There's nothing really personal to draw in with Bernie. And you saw how well the media covered Operation Wall Street, which is pretty much the demographic supporting Bernie. Why do you expect it to be different? It's a fairly conservative country - predicting a socialist revolution is a long-shot, to be kind.

    In terms of fund-raising, Hillary's also doing much better - including both PACs and campaign contributions, which is how the game's played. She has about twice the funding, and that's likely to kick in big over the next few weeks. Since Hillary spent nearly a half billion dollars on campaigning in 2008, and most of those voters are still alive, you can count much of that towards her 2016 messaging and awareness campaign. Sure, Bernie may get more bang for his buck with volunteer organizers, but that only goes so far, and TV is still a major force in opinions, and that's costly.

    This time as well, the "coronation" seems to have been Hillary handling herself well at the debates, with a lot of people holding off opinion until then. These are measures of merit, not a gift, unless you think the moderators gave her too soft questions or something, but Bernie did get a chance to speak. Along with the revelation from 3 GOP sources that the Benghazi panel was a witchhunt, which makes Hillary somewhat of a Democratic martyr - for herself & as a symbol of Obama's administration. (I guess we can call Joan of Arc's burning a coronation of sorts as well. - snark)

    Meanwhile, the press is continually bashing her forever not being "authentic" and being "calculating" and never waste a chance to bring up Monica along with Benghazi & email and a fake NY Times scandal about uranium & Bill's charity with a supermodel's charity a few months back... - perhaps Bernie's lucky if they don't talk about him.

    Ignore the polls, but the polls certainly hold some value in terms of what the public knows at this time. Trends are as important. There's 3 months to New Hampshire, but we don't see Bernie breaking away from the pack there, unlike his earlier gains, and that's his home turf where he owns the ground game. Biden's exit will quite likely favor her. The next 5 debates could help him, but he has to pray for Hillary to whiff. She might, if she goes too careful say, but she's got a lot more experience in the limelight, including now Benghazi, so don't expect many rookie mistakes.

    You might not like Hillary, but for me she's the only Democrat who can tell Republicans to shove it up their ass and make it stick, and having accepted I'll always have problems at policy level, I'm pretty comfortable that she ticks the boxes at more than 75%, along with the organizational & backroom skills to actually get things done (e.g. executive skills & legislative wrangling and hard-nose negotiating without giving away the store, and not pissing away her presidency on an intern/young professional scandal).

    People have been trying to get corporations out of politics since the Founding Fathers. It's not happening anytime soon. Bush made it worse, Obama's first months were horrid with the bailouts, and the Supreme Court put several nails in the coffin like Citizens United. (it's ironic to remember that Citizens United was about the freedom of unlimited money to attack Hillary in videos outside of FEC limits. The right does keep coming for her).

    More than electing Bernie or Lessig, we need an actual 50-state Democratic strategy like Howard Dean tried and that Obama & Rahm Emmanuel shut down. So instead of a broad party, we have a tenuous 1-office hold on influence. Maybe when Bernie loses he can effectively organize at the grass roots level so in 8-12 years, the needed legislative power will be there to affect policy at both state & national level, policies that maybe you won't have to hold your nose to support.


    Thanks.  I think I am getting a picture of admiration of Hillary for her tenacity, and you are right the fact that she ran before has an effect on the situation.  So maybe the push is an 'it's her turn' kind of energy.  I beg to differ on the coverage of Bernie's crowds.  We have our own youtube TV channel so we can seek out feeds, via cell phone of Bernie speaking around the country because media doesn't cover him much.  But I agree that given more coverage some of it will be negative.  I also hear that a lot of the reason you support Hillary is tactical.  

    For me having seen the studies that prove that our government is overwhelmingly in service to corporations & big money and is statistically barely representative of the people (which is why you see Sanders and non establishment republican candidates doing well) makes this a different election.  The People Vs Rule By Corporations & Billionaires and in my view Bernie has the right character and agenda to lead people in restoring economic fairness & quality of life.  

    Maybe at least we can understand where each of us is coming from.


    Without quite saying it, Bernie seems to be trying to activate the OWS crowd and their sympathizers/supporters to actually get fired up again and agree collectively to get out and vote for a candidate that might actually have economic policies intended to change the major beneficiaries of those policies.  Rather than saying, "Make me do it", he is rallying for a commitment that will make it possible for him to do it. He is saying that we have the power to turn our government into one that is of the people and for the people by making it by the people. Well, that's part of the American dream and who knows, unlikely as it seems sometimes it could happen. Those skeptical that Hillary is really separated enough from the puppet strings of Wall Street and political connivers might hear him and they might get out and vote outside the usual pundit prescribed parameters. 


    Sanders is working outside the political box.  He is also doing very well with fund raising.  He raised 3+million after the debate.  I live in a poor working neighborhood and a couple of neighbors were out this evening because the weather was nice.  So I asked them if they saw the Democratic debate or the Benghazi hearings yesterday.  The answer was no but they had heard about both.  They plan to watch the next one that is going to be on network TV if they have time. I was asked about who I was going to vote for in the primary and I told them giving the reasons. "Don't you want a women for President? " was the question I was asked.  I told them I trusted Sanders to do more for us and gave my reasons. 

    We are mostly disenfranchised as voters.  No one here ever gets polled and we are looking for someone who speaks to our concerns and really means it. Sanders uses language that most here understands and he isn't slick about it either.

    When you have to spend $100 to get a ID to vote there is no one on TV is going to tell you not to bother to vote for a the person you want because that person can't win and has already lost the race because of some political theater that has no bearing on your life.

    You know which neighbor has kids in jail, Which ones are still paying on credit cards that did not get discharged in their bankruptcy after they lost their house. You know who no longer qualifies for food assistance and has a sick husband that don't qualifies for Medicaid. You know bright kids that will never go to college because they were born poor.  You know someone that died in the middle east. 

    Frankly...the DNC don't have enough polish to put on that and try to sell it back to us. 


    Momoe, this comment should be a post.  It speaks that perfectly.


    I like to point out once in a while that there is other lenses that people look through when it comes to political races.  Those of us who are not well taken care of or struggle to make it through the month look much closer to issues then we are given credit for.  The status quo  hasn't worked for some of us that includes very well polished presidential looking candidates that get elected. It takes more then polish to get up the enthusiasm that it take for people here to vote. 


    That's some great spice, Peracles.

    I hate to admit it but I was concerned there might be a smoking gun in the emails, something we didn't know about Libya and it made me think twice about Clinton. That changed yesterday. Is that placing too much importance on the hearings? Not for me, and I think it was transformative for the election.

    Why? Because it will take a generation to roll back corporate influence on our elections, reverse Citizens United, and redistribute wealth, not to mention reversing the districting in the states.

    In effect, we are in a war. If we don't take this hill (?) it may take two generations to reign in the corporations, etc.

    Four horses showed up on the property this morning and no one in these parts has a clue where they came from. So we shut them in the pasture and put out a water trough. I haven't a clue what connection these horses have to the election. We'll see if anyone claims them. Maybe I'll haul them up to Vermont and donate them to Bernie's campaign since I've already picked the horse I want. or

    Let them eat grass. I'm going with Hillary.


    I have been corrected by SO.

    It's three horses and a donkey. I guess that seals it.


    ;-)


    Yo.


    I hate to admit it but I was concerned there might be a smoking gun in the emails, something we didn't know about Libya and it made me think twice about Clinton. 

    Does that mean that you think what we do know about Libya makes Hillary look good or were you maybe thinking more narrowly about Benghazi? 

    I gotta say that those who value Hillary's ability to handle herself in tough situations got lots of reinforcement. Hillary was quite good in the parts I saw and the clips that followed. Her insider knowledge of how the game is played and who the players are is a powerful thing that I hope she wields well. If she wanted to become President, whether by hook or by crook, she needed the brains, talent, and amazing energy to stay at it for so long. She showed them all well enough to rise above the Republicans who were attacking her. Having an opposition party that has gone completely ape-shit crazy gave her a bit of a spot, you gotta admit, but she didn't seem to need it. 

     I give no credence to the idea of giving preference to a woman candidate just because, but  otherwise I can see and somewhat feel what has people excited about her. That is how I was about Obama. One thing I thought then is that Obama had the advantage of a situation ripe for needed change that the public was largely in favor of. That is not as much the case right now but of coarse things can change quickly in many different ways and then a strong leader can become particularly important for better or worse. The main thing, the important point, IMO, is whether she really is someone to make an incremental shift in the right direction. That is probably the best we can hope for. After all, this s a big mutha ship we hope to turn around in an ever tightening place. I expect Hillary to be elected [of coarse I expected Trump to be a forgotten joke by now] and so I hope you are right and my instincts are completely wrong. I think that even if Sanders were to be elected and then succeed to his wildest realistic dreams that that would only be a small, incremental, step in the right direction. 

    Maybe, possibly, we will see with an election of Hillary a replay of the best side of LBJ. He played hard and mean to get to the top and then used his power to do some great things in the civil rights arena and gave an honest effort in the war on poverty. Of course he also screwed up horribly regarding foreign policy, and probably did so just as a political decision, and millions died in S E Asia.

     Oh, uh,  never mind.  It will probably be 'interesting' to watch play out.  

     


    Lulu, I meant Benghazi. Thanks.

    In 2008, I was a quick convert to Obama and the Clintons seemed old hat. I like Benie and voted for him as a Vermont resident but it just seems to be new reality---part of which is that with the loss of the Congress, one just has to go with the tactical odds of keeping the Presidency---regardless of policy preferences on taxation, down-sizing banks, etc.  

    I think the hearings were a microcosm of a national election against the Republicans. They came close to topping the McCarthy hearings. It's a knife fight, in the alley, behind the bar, in a murderous neighborhood.


    Yeah, but  what starts as a friendly knife fight is when Stagger Lee breaks out his short-barreled bad forty-four and Sugar Magnolia is there to jump right in. 


    Now you have to keep it rolling.,

    But that was a song and it wasn't going to help me one night in .....


    One night in Bangkok? Stagger Lee crossdresses for a line show? Meets Smackwater Jack/Jane, find true love? Get caught in the militia crackdown on nightclubs and turns into The Year of Living Dangerously? With that short guy who's actually a woman (was that supposed to be part of the plot or only something we know about the actress via IMDB?). And then an alien's head pops out of the main character's stomach and they all fight against Communism. Hmmm, lost the thread, someone help me out.


    yescheeky Will pop some popcorn.


    Thanks, everyone, for your comments.  I love that we can do this, here.  Argue and persuade and reason and explain, and remain cordial.  I'm not always cordial, so I thank you for allowing me to say my piece anyway.  :)

    I'll try to summarize what I'm seeing and why I'm feeling so strongly so "quickly" about Bernie Sanders.  Synch, btw, has been doing a great job doing both in my absence this week.

    I'm seeing some really strange reactions to Trump.  I, myself, do not take him seriously and neither does most of my family.  But friends and coworkers and strangers around me and far are all liking him, and if they don't like him, they like Carson.  The polls reflect this.

    They all want an outsider.

    Those of us who know Bernie Sanders' history know he's not an outsider.

    But he's not a Clinton, either.

    His campaign is going insane on the inside.  He polls better, by state, against Republicans, in all the early states except Florida so far (and Momoe is working hard on changing that). 

    People across the country, and across party lines, want an outsider.  Someone not influenced by Wall Street or years of moving up in politics.

    Bernie moved up in politics, yes, but his politics remained the same.  He's been a consistent fighter for decades.  His only weak spot in the Vegas debate was his stance on guns, and he got the point across that, yes, he comes from a rural state full of hunters.  And, hey folks, at the time he voted he was representing his state - not running for President.

    I want an outsider who's proven not to be influenced, nor have baggage.  Bernie works with Republicans on bills.  Go up this thread and read one of Synch's links about it.

    All I'm asking is that we consider what America wants - and needs - and not just what Dems want - and need. 

    Trudeau is now Prime Minister, again.  Clinton and Bush are both running, again.

    Didn't we all just vote for CHANGE these past two cycles???

     


    Yes this is the year of the outsider.  This is going to be a really different election cycle.  Who would of predicted Walker's crash and burn and now JEB can't seem to get traction?  Will Hillary hang on to her lead?  I am not going to try to predict that because of the mood the country is in. 

    For your information Florida is very hard to poll because of the comings and goings of the retirees. 


    I should've known that, because a lot of the retirees are going there from here...and back ;)


    The CHANGE bit was just marketing, as it always is. Look at the track record more than promises.

    BTW, Hillary's the one from Chicago, not from Arkansas, the one who knows how to organize & not get distracted with skirt. And she's not genetically related to Bill & has a real live posh degree from some little school called Yale - & not a legacy acceptance like W - and another called Wellesley.

    Maybe a bit tired of all this dynasty crap - she helped build that brand straight out of college, she's welcome to use it more than Ted Kennedy whose family had some Congressman step down to give him his first political spot - that's a Dynasty. And BTW, she tried to keep her name Rodham but was seen as uppity, so she ditched it, took it for the team, like women typically do, like she moved to more conservative hair styles just to satisfy the whims of the chatty classes. Yeah, Bill could have done the law firm work and raised the kid while she ran for political office, but that's not how it's done, is it?