The Bishop and the Butterfly: Murder, Politics, and the End of the Jazz Age
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    Live-blogging the debate tonight. Open Thread. Come on in.

    By Ramona on Wed, 10/03/2012 - 8:09pm | Politics

    Open thread on the debate tonight at dagblog.  You can start right now or wait until 9 PM EST, when it all starts officially.

    Alrighty then. . .

    Topics: 
    Politics

    Comments

    Ron Paul really tore them up tonight, didn't he? Best jobs program, said he couldn't imagine Thomas Jefferson & the Founding Fathers approving of marijuana raids, whether for medical purposes or some stoner's private stash.

    And when he told Jim Lehrer, "strong on defense? pitting a $600 billion army against some medieval tribe off in the bush somewhere sounds weak to me" - brought down the house. Think it's a turning point on Afghanistan.

    I'm starting to be glad Paul stayed in the race, even though that kookie gold standard idea always reminds me of Aunt Margie hiding her silver coins in the attic.


    by PeraclesPlease on Wed, 10/03/2012 - 8:44pm

    You libertarians are all alike.  Always behind the times.  It's not all about pot, you know.  It's about chocolate.


    by Ramona on Wed, 10/03/2012 - 8:51pm

    Chocolate. Damn right.


    by Doctor Cleveland on Wed, 10/03/2012 - 8:57pm

    No better high, and an aphrodisiac, too.  And I don't have to suck up to Ron Paul.


    by Ramona on Wed, 10/03/2012 - 9:01pm

    Pastafarian and Southern Pedestrian. Don't like sweet. Unless it's bitter chocolate you're talking about? Then I'm in.


    by PeraclesPlease on Wed, 10/03/2012 - 9:55pm

    No, I mean sweet, melt-in-your-mouth-and-all-over-your-fingers.  Like Dove.  But Zingerman's makes a good bitter with sea salt.  I do love that.


    by Ramona on Wed, 10/03/2012 - 10:07pm

    Okay, maybe not full live-blogging.  Open threading, instead.  So go for it, folks.  The more the merrier.

    Did I mention I'm as nervous as I was when my son was a little league pitcher?  Too much pressure.  I want Obama to kill and Romney to die a thousand deaths up there.  But who cares what I want.  I'm only the mom.

     


    by Ramona on Wed, 10/03/2012 - 8:49pm

    Could we call you a soccer mom? Cause that's some pull.


    by Doctor Cleveland on Wed, 10/03/2012 - 8:58pm

    Obama in the blue tie; Romney in the red tie.  Lehrer with a red and blue tie.  Nice touch.


    by Ramona on Wed, 10/03/2012 - 9:04pm

    Romney's first answer was channeling Bill Clinton,  blatantly, starting out with talking about touchy feely with people who came up to him recently and said they needed jobs. Whole answer sounded like Clinton vs Bush Sr in 92, could have been lifted from a debate then.


    by artappraiser on Wed, 10/03/2012 - 9:10pm

    Romney commiserating with woman whose husband has 3 jobs.  Surreal.


    by Ramona on Wed, 10/03/2012 - 9:12pm

    Suddenly Romney doesn't want tax cuts for the rich?

    Etch-a-sketch in the house, yo.


    by Doctor Cleveland on Wed, 10/03/2012 - 9:13pm

    Romney likes clean coal.  Who has some clean coal?  Anybody?


    by Ramona on Wed, 10/03/2012 - 9:14pm

    Obama says he does (and has since 2008.) More here and here.


    by artappraiser on Wed, 10/03/2012 - 9:21pm

    I got some clean coal for Christmas.


    by Doctor Cleveland on Wed, 10/03/2012 - 10:20pm

    Romney:  I will lower taxes on middle income families.  How?  I'll tell you after I'm elected.  Trust me.


    by Ramona on Wed, 10/03/2012 - 9:18pm

    Love Romney's argument that no economist can say his plan raises the deficit because... he says it doesn't.


    by Michael Maiello on Wed, 10/03/2012 - 9:18pm

    "It's arithmetic."

    Obama and the Big Dog are friends now.


    by Michael Maiello on Wed, 10/03/2012 - 9:19pm

    Obama said "math" first, then caught himself.


    by Ramona on Wed, 10/03/2012 - 9:24pm

    Boycotting the debate and edifying myself instead with some good reading.


    by Dan Kervick on Wed, 10/03/2012 - 9:20pm

    Go for it, Dan.  Now get outta here ;>)


    by Ramona on Wed, 10/03/2012 - 9:22pm

    If you wanna spend your night reading my old blog posts, who am I to stop you?


    by Michael Maiello on Wed, 10/03/2012 - 9:24pm

    Obama:  Donald Trump is a small business.   (We'll be hearing that tomorrow.)


    by Ramona on Wed, 10/03/2012 - 9:21pm

    Almost a preplanned zinger!


    by Michael Maiello on Wed, 10/03/2012 - 9:22pm

    This question was too broad based, open ended.  Not a good start.  Need specific queries asking for answer on one issue at time.  Too many this will seem like gobbley gook - still not about job and how, what and when - morphed into taxes. angry


    by Aunt Sam on Wed, 10/03/2012 - 9:23pm

    Agreed.  It just asked for the same old junk.  Be specific.


    by Ramona on Wed, 10/03/2012 - 9:25pm

    Romney on moral issues.  Let's not go there, Mitt.


    by Ramona on Wed, 10/03/2012 - 9:27pm

    This has already gotten away from the 'moderator' - I think Romney lost some ground with his PBS bit. ?


    by Aunt Sam on Wed, 10/03/2012 - 9:30pm

    He's going to kill PBS??  Wow.  There's a plan. 

    The president doubled the debt.  So there.

     


    by Ramona on Wed, 10/03/2012 - 9:29pm

    Andrew Sullivan says Mitt is better than Obama.


    by Aunt Sam on Wed, 10/03/2012 - 9:32pm

    Nothing kills like someone who sucks saying someone else who sucks doesn't suck.


    by PeraclesPlease on Wed, 10/03/2012 - 9:56pm

    Am I crazy or is Mitt sounding like he knows what he's talking about?  I'm scared.


    by Ramona on Wed, 10/03/2012 - 9:33pm

    Me too.  Even Josh is giving points to Mitt.  I want to turn it off. 


    by Aunt Sam on Wed, 10/03/2012 - 9:37pm

    Oooo, this is scary.  Don't leave yet, Aunt Sam.  Something's gotta give.


    by Ramona on Wed, 10/03/2012 - 9:40pm

    The President goes into this as the title holder.  He doesn't have to go for a knockout punch.  It's even dangerous to do so.  If he seems tentative it's because what he has to do is not get beaten up.  And he's not being beaten up.  He's just drawing it out.


    by Michael Maiello on Wed, 10/03/2012 - 9:46pm

    I agree.  Rope a dope.  Ohio is one step away from being his, and then he has to just grab VA or FL or CO.


    by Elusive Trope on Wed, 10/03/2012 - 9:52pm

    Okay, Des, I feel a little better now.  But the last thing we should want is for them to be boring,  And they're boring.  Actually, Mitt is more animated than Obama.  That's bad, isn't it?


    by Ramona on Wed, 10/03/2012 - 9:58pm

    Since Romney says that Obama picks losers, Obama has to ask if he means GM and Chrysler.


    by Michael Maiello on Wed, 10/03/2012 - 9:39pm

    Wouldn't you think?  I'm going to put this in writing.  Obama is boring me.  I would like to grab his little ear and tell him to quit wonking it.  Jeeeeez.


    by Ramona on Wed, 10/03/2012 - 9:42pm

    Remember - this isn't a convention - both of them are going after the 3 to 4% of undecideds.


    by Elusive Trope on Wed, 10/03/2012 - 9:56pm

    Mitt is doing a little better, but so did Kerry.  I'm a political junkie and my eyes are glazing over.  I actually switched over to watch the Yankees clobber the Red Sox for a little while. The notion there are 50+ million Americans glued to their tvs right now is little bit unbelievable. Most are probably doing like me, using to remote, clicking in - hearing the same thing as before - and clicking out, then clicking in...And this is advantage Obama in terms of the undecided voters and those weakly leaning one way or the other.


    by Elusive Trope on Wed, 10/03/2012 - 9:45pm

    By the way, Yankees 10 Boston 2 bottom of the 7th, Baltimore 0 TB 4 top of the 9th.


    by Elusive Trope on Wed, 10/03/2012 - 9:49pm

    Good TBogg tweets at Firedoglake main page - http://firedoglake.com/

    He & Eli missed a career in standup.


    by PeraclesPlease on Wed, 10/03/2012 - 9:51pm

    Jim best be smacking Romney down, 'cuz he is just ignoring him.

    The regulation thing is huge, I was in that business when it was deregulated - it was huge mistake.


    by Aunt Sam on Wed, 10/03/2012 - 9:55pm

    I'm so annoyed at Romney's line about regional banks failing after Dodd-Frank.  If you look at the number of FDIC problem banks, they skyrocketed after 2007.  Why?  Because regional and community banks made largely real-estate based loans within their communities.  Their eventual failures have nothing to do with Dodd-Frank.  Besides, the existing system can handle small bank failures.  That's what the FDIC does and it does the job well, if the bank isn't enormous.

    Basically, Romney just made something up and nobody cares. 


    by Michael Maiello on Wed, 10/03/2012 - 9:57pm

    Okay, now Romney is just lying.  Bipartisan?  Where's he been?  No such thing as bipartisan when the Republicans abhor bipartisanship.


    by Ramona on Wed, 10/03/2012 - 10:04pm

    Missed opportunity after missed opportunity after missed opportunity. Mitt is pitching softballs and Obama is not just missing, he's trying to bunt...and still missing. 


    by Michael Wolraich on Wed, 10/03/2012 - 10:10pm

     I fear Romney is exceeding expectations and Obama is not.  Romney does seem confident and relaxed.  We're getting a less secure and assertive POTUS tonight.


    by HSG on Wed, 10/03/2012 - 10:11pm

    Obama does seem more confident and relaxed, but he still reminds me of all the CEOs I have met, and just like everyone else I know, I don't like CEOs, i.e. the boss.  While he is scoring points on competency (no small deal), he isn't scoring points on likeability which is for better or for worse part of presidential politics.


    by Elusive Trope on Wed, 10/03/2012 - 10:19pm

     A nit: Romney is not relaxed. Romney is confident and passionate! Passionate about his basic beliefs and excited about the chance to change the course of the country. And whenever he can, throwing in a "I see the pain and want to fix it." Obama is just defensive and wonky, not a scintilla of optimism so far, just picking on Romney policy suggestions.


    by artappraiser on Wed, 10/03/2012 - 10:21pm

    passionate but what drives that passion? a chance for him and his friends to make even more money? wonky or is he struggling with the deal real world problems in a real world? just depends what prism one is looking through.  Those undecided voters' prism - who knows?


    by Elusive Trope on Wed, 10/03/2012 - 10:23pm

    Obama was a few minutes ago making a lot of big Al Gore mistakes of making dismissive facial expressions (holding back laughs, shaking his head, etc) at things Romney said. He is coming off a snooty wonk lecturer, a Gore/Dukakis. Romney, on the other hand, has obviously been in some intensive method acting classes practicing inhabiting the person of Bill Clinton. Now he's no Brando, and he's also no Bill Clinton, but if he can stay in this pseudo part-Clinton character for all three debates, he's dangerous. Especially because, if Obama also keeps playing for the swings by bringing up moderate anti-liberal wonkery, he's going to depress his liberal GOTV. I am really struck how much Romney has studied Clinton, he's got Clintonian points in his pocket to bring out for nearly every question so far. It's not fair and not accurate about his actual policy beliefs, but it's working.


    by artappraiser on Wed, 10/03/2012 - 10:15pm

     I fear Romney is exceeding expectations and Obama is not.  Romney does seem confident and relaxed.  We're getting a less secure and assertive POTUS tonight.


    by HSG on Wed, 10/03/2012 - 10:11pm

    Now there's Obama, show us what the hell you're talking about bozo!


    by Aunt Sam on Wed, 10/03/2012 - 10:12pm

    Finally.  Details. Obama can talk about Obamacare.  Romney fudges.


    by Ramona on Wed, 10/03/2012 - 10:14pm

    "Why won't he share the details? Because his plans are too good?"


    by Doctor Cleveland on Wed, 10/03/2012 - 10:14pm

    Obama doesn't have a knack for grabbing something out of what Romney says and sticking it to him.  He's a big picture guy and missed all those opportunities.  I'm afraid Obama has lost this one.  IMHO.


    by Ramona on Wed, 10/03/2012 - 10:21pm

    He sucked on the big picture too. 


    by Michael Wolraich on Wed, 10/03/2012 - 10:23pm

    I never saw him do big picture in debates. He did big picture in speeches written by him and the Jon Favreau team to vaguely channel RFK and MLK.  In debates he always seemed a brutal wonk, sometimes even sarcastic. I love me lots of sarcasm myself, would like him at my party; think sarcasm can work for a Barney Frank House Rep but sarcasm is normally death for a president To be clear, I didn't see any sarcasm here, I am talking way back in 2008. But I never saw him be inspiring in debates.


    by artappraiser on Wed, 10/03/2012 - 10:40pm

    I didn't watch, but I assume the Obama orator halo came out a bit tarnished?

    Yes, I'd noted the speech vs. debates thing before too - works if your opponent is a half-senile military fruitcake.

    Did Romney get off any of his practiced Zingers? Should Obama try one or two, or just continue as Eddie Haskell?


    by PeraclesPlease on Wed, 10/03/2012 - 10:49pm

    Did Romney get off any of his practiced Zingers

    No zingers. And he was charming and self-deprecatory about the Obamas' wedding anniversary at the start.

    It's like they implanted a chip in his brain with mantra: "optimism, optimism, optimism." And "Obama adminstration has failed, so sad, all the wrong prescriptions, so many people hurting, but we can fix this, we will fix this, we know how to fix this. Can do. Here's the main points to do, to stop the pain, get hope and confidence back." He remained personally genial overall, attacked policy only.

    Should Obama try one or two

    Personally, I don't see that helping with this tactic at all.  Probably hurt. But it's got to be something more than "I'm frustrated by your lying" and "things are more complicated than that."


    by artappraiser on Thu, 10/04/2012 - 12:33am

    Since the Obama campaign isn't really about anything, it is not surprising that Obama would struggle to come up with interesting points to make in a debate.

    But where is Articleman?  Since I didn't watch the debate I need a professional politico to come by and tell me what to think.


    by Dan Kervick on Thu, 10/04/2012 - 12:54am

    You really do think a great deal of yourself, don't you Dan, you are so above the rest of us peons. 

    I guess we needed the old white man philosophy PhD know it all, (Oh did I just write that) to be the major buzz kill of the evening. You never disappoint.


    by tmccarthy0 on Thu, 10/04/2012 - 1:57am

    Does a pejorative personal "old white man" meet Dagblog's Terms of Use?

    I assume from parentheses it obviously doesn't.


    by PeraclesPlease on Thu, 10/04/2012 - 2:37am

    Maybe Dagblog can create a system of paid premium users so you can surround yourself with like-mided, morale-boosting, liberal dittoheads who never harsh your buzz by having opinions you don't want to hear.


    by Dan Kervick on Thu, 10/04/2012 - 7:25am

    CNN headlines,

    Romney more aggressive in first debate

     


    by Aunt Sam on Wed, 10/03/2012 - 11:18pm

    I cringe every time Obama gets a question. Let's be honest. His performance tonight has been abysmal.


    by Michael Wolraich on Wed, 10/03/2012 - 10:22pm

    I feel like blubbering like a baby.  But I'm the mom.  I have to be strong. 


    by Ramona on Wed, 10/03/2012 - 10:24pm

    I don't think it's that bad - but I am so not watching any pundits afterward.

    I wish he had called Romney out on his bs, not sure why he, for the most part didn't.  Even some other sites are having fits on how much Romney has lied, so let the fact checkers loose and we'll see........


    by Aunt Sam on Wed, 10/03/2012 - 10:30pm

    I disagree - if one looks through the view of an undecided who basically hates Congress and doesn't embrace either Repub or Dem parties, who sees politicians beneath used car sales men, Obama seems to me come across as more real, less like a politician, and Romney comes across as the cookie cutter politician (CEO).


    by Elusive Trope on Wed, 10/03/2012 - 10:30pm

    I agree - but would really lay the blame on the moderator, really poorly framed questions and Romney ran all over him.  Very interested in fact checkers reports.

    Not Obama's best night, but assuredly not his worse.  I think that those of us most invested in him are no doubt the toughest on him ironically.  That said, very unhappy that he was allowed to spin his lack of substantive policies and bs with very little challenges.

    Bad moderator!  I'll keep harping on that too.


    by Aunt Sam on Wed, 10/03/2012 - 10:40pm

    Bad moderator. Bad.

     


    by Elusive Trope on Wed, 10/03/2012 - 10:49pm

    Romney is demonstrating that he is about as moral and as clean a fighter as Rove tonight. Jim Lehrer is the one who ought to be stronger in his role. Or do we care a whit about how things are done?

     


    by leftyloosey on Wed, 10/03/2012 - 10:26pm

    Sorry for the triple post. Still learning how to make this comment thing work.


    by leftyloosey on Wed, 10/03/2012 - 10:33pm

    Fixed now, Loosey.


    by Ramona on Wed, 10/03/2012 - 10:43pm

    That was one lousy debate, all around.  Jim Lehrer was terrible, too.  I'm going to give this one to Romney.  Not because he told the truth but because he got through it without losing his enthusiasm.  Obama missed too many chances to challenge Mitt.

    If I was nervous before, I'm a basket case right now.


    by Ramona on Wed, 10/03/2012 - 10:35pm

    just remember that if 52 million tuned in, there was probably 2 million watching at the end.  it was a snooze fest, compounded by a format that was all over the place.


    by Elusive Trope on Wed, 10/03/2012 - 10:44pm

    Wish I could just blame the format.  Obama was in the ring and just lay down on the mat, waiting for it to be over.  So much ammunition, and not a shot fired.  (to mix metaphors, but I don't care.  That was disgusting.)


    by Ramona on Wed, 10/03/2012 - 10:51pm

    I agree with Maddow, we saw this format die a quick death.


    by Elusive Trope on Wed, 10/03/2012 - 10:36pm

    What did Maddow say?


    by Aunt Sam on Wed, 10/03/2012 - 10:53pm

    My pc has been mad at me for two months!

    Streaming and tabbing have been hell.

    I do know this.

    MSNBC is mad; the folks there are mad at our President; they claim that our President did not show up...

    Anyway, this may have been planned.

    The second debate will be on a different subject but Obama might look better?

    We shall see.

    Second guessers?

     

     


    by Richard Day on Wed, 10/03/2012 - 10:49pm

    Chris Matthews:  "Kick him in the balls".  Yes, MSNBC pundits are mad.  So am I.


    by Ramona on Wed, 10/03/2012 - 10:53pm

    Kick who in the balls?  If you're mad at Obama, don't be - be mad at crappy moderator.

    After a bad night , which I don't think was all that bad, he doesn't need people ragging on and on......(nor do his supporters IMO).

    I want a good fact checker site, do you know one that is doing this on debate?


    by Aunt Sam on Wed, 10/03/2012 - 10:59pm

    No, no, Aunt Sam, Matthews was yelling at Obama to "kick Romney in the balls".  Which he chose not to do. 

    Politifact is fact-checking.


    by Ramona on Wed, 10/03/2012 - 11:05pm

    Matthews was referring to what Bobby i believe said to Jack before he went to debate tricky dick.


    by Elusive Trope on Wed, 10/03/2012 - 11:06pm

    Mediaite has the video of the 3-1/2 minute Chris Matthews irate rant at the President (with Ed and Rachel piping in at the end,) for those interested:

    http://www.mediaite.com/tv/watch-chris-matthews-epic-meltdown-over-obama...

    We're certainly not in a Huntley-Brinkley-Cronkite world anymore, Toto wink


    by artappraiser on Thu, 10/04/2012 - 1:14am

    as one MSNBC pundit pointed out, the Obama team sees his likeability is based on him being the type of person not going for the jugular and therefore he won't. 


    by Elusive Trope on Wed, 10/03/2012 - 10:59pm

    See it took me fifteen to get back.

    Trope I see that 'they' wished to attack Mitt.

    Or attack more formidably?

    When they piece this mess out into ads and pieces to the public over the next week who knows?

    I AM THE PRESIDENT; I AM THE DECIDER...?

    I do not know.

    I expected this to happen.

    They will take all the tapes of what Mitt said tonight against what he said last week and against what he said last month and and against what he said last year....I dunno?

    The lies were palpable coming from THE MITT but the American People on the whole are idiots.

    So we are stuck with Baby Poopoo? or Snookems or whatever. (just to give you some idea as to how well tuned I am to the present 'pop' culture.)

    We shall see. but if MSNBC is castigating the performance of Obama, well who is there to defend him?

    This is more like the America Beauty Pageant than anything locked in some reality.

    WE SHALL SEE!


    by Richard Day on Wed, 10/03/2012 - 11:17pm

    Plouffe on MSNBC lays it out best. As Sharpton points out, Romney put on a great performance, but in the next couple of days will be shown to have committed perjury.


    by Elusive Trope on Wed, 10/03/2012 - 11:22pm

    As one MSNBC pundit pointed out, the Obama team sees his likeability is based on him being the type of person not going for the jugular and therefore he won't.

    That's the story of his whole presidency: preserving likability is more important than fighting.


    by Dan Kervick on Wed, 10/03/2012 - 11:41pm

    Missed Obama zinger, with Romney touting how much he did in Mass. with "87% Democrats in the legislature' Obama responds:

    "Governor, either of us, as President, could not fail to get good things done for this nation with a Congress that was 87% Democrat."


    by NCD on Thu, 10/04/2012 - 12:33am

    Thanks, all.  It's been great.  The discussion here, I mean.  The debate, not so much.

    And tomorrow is another day.

    The sunnnn will come uuuuup, toomorrrrrow. . .

    Bet your bottom dollar.

     


    by Ramona on Wed, 10/03/2012 - 11:21pm

    When you net this out, Romney solidified his position on vouchers, a program that has already been soundly rejected by most voters. Obama can continue to run against Romney's position, even more so.

    Women's rights weren't even discussed, so no advancement for Romney there. Does anyone think Obama will lose hid advantage with women after tonight? I don't think so. Romney didn't play by the rules and and was disingenuous on facts.

    Romney spent a lot of time talking down the economy but polls already show people think a recovery is underway.

    While Romney may have won on tactics, did he change any votes? I don't think so.

    Did Romney make himself more likable? Don't know.

    What did un-decideds think. If they were looking for specifics from Romney, they are still looking.

    Romney did a lot of talking, but basically dodging specifics. Can he keep this up for another month and win an election on it. I don't think so.

    Did I want Obama to be more aggressive? yes.

    Am I hoping for a good jobs report tomorrow?

     


    by Oxy Mora on Thu, 10/04/2012 - 12:37am

    You know I have to agree with all you say!

    One fun event that might mitigate the night will be Biden (who has been slammed forever and yet this man has forgotten more than Ryan ever learned) arising to the occasion!

    Who knows?

    Foot in mouth? bullshite!

    We shall see but I am certain that Icarus shall show up flying too near the sun and lose his loft!

    We shall see!


    by Richard Day on Thu, 10/04/2012 - 12:53am

    Yankees 14, Red Sox 2, alls well in da Bronx, Trope [yawn....SAMO]:

    Barton Silverman/The New York Times:The Yankees in the locker room on Wednesday night after beating Boston and clinching the American League East title, their 13th in the last 17 seasons.


    by artappraiser on Thu, 10/04/2012 - 12:50am

    I heard an entirely different debate than those folks on MSNBC. I listened to the debate on the radio on my way home from work tonight. And to me it seemed like Romney was a prickly, impatient, rude and overly privileged,  who was full of contradictions.

    The president defended Medicaid, mocked Romney on his inability to understand that state governments can't fund Medicaid on their own, he defended ACA, took it to Romney over pre-existing conditions. My daughter was sitting next to me as we commute together two days a week and both agreed, there was no doubt who won the debate and it wasn't Mitt Romney.  We get home around 8:30 and low an behold the folks on MSNBC actually have my husband enraged, he wanted to throw a brick at the TV and track down Ed Schultz and "Crazy Chris Matthews", I am just quoting him now, he was pissed.

    I said, "what are you talking about the President clearly won that debate?"

    He said, "I know, but they are saying he didn't, and what was up with the smirk on Romney's face? He kept making faces when the President spoke." 

    At this point he was much more agitated, so we talked about having a bourbon ale, oh that is good ale. So I called my mom, to check in to see what she thought. 

    She says, "I really didn't like Romney's smirk, I want someone to wipe it off his face, he is so rude!" 

    Well I have to go to bed, but I clearly heard some other program from the MSNBC crowd. They were hell bent on some sort of weird douche off, as Michael Steele "Republican BS factory" put it, mano-a-mano. WTF does that even mean, it was a debate, not a wrestling match?

    OMG, they must be kidding. Epic Fail on the part of MSNBC, but to me the radio listener, the President clearly won that debate.

    -that is all


    by tmccarthy0 on Thu, 10/04/2012 - 1:41am

    Oh tmac, bless you - I so needed to read this.......

    And hey, tell your hubby I'll put on my ninja suit and meet him to go smack Matthews, et al.  I hate the friggin' media idiots when they do crap like that and it seems tonight all of 'em across the board are doin' it just to keep the fervor goin' and ratings.  Asses.


    by Aunt Sam on Thu, 10/04/2012 - 3:13am

    Tmac, you don't know how badly I wanted to be able to say Obama won that debate, but for me, watching it was actually painful.  Yes, Romney lied, he talked over both the president and the moderator, he was the CEO in charge up there, and that was the problem.  He looked like the leader and Obama looked beaten.  Honestly.

    And perception counts.  Everybody, included and especially MSNBC (because they want Obama to win), reacted the same way because for the first time Romney looked like he could take charge.  That's a dangerous perception.,

    Obama had a ton of ammunition to work against Romney but he didn't use it.  He wanted to look presidential, he wanted to be likeable.  He wasn't a leader last night and that hurt him, at least temporarily.


    by Ramona on Thu, 10/04/2012 - 6:20am

    That was possibly the most agonizing 90 political minutes of my lifetime.  Romney, the sociopath, went full tilt against the truth, and without a strong pushback, beat it into an unrecognizable pulp, so now all that remains for the vast majority of undecided people is the impression that Romney is a 'strong, aggressive leader,'  (not a lying sack of excrement), and he must be correct because 'Obama couldn't defend any of his positions' (even the fantasy ones that Romney completely made up.)  

    This was more than a freak-out-able moment for Democrats, it was watching a horrifying capitulation of our ideals to our worst fears.  Sorry, but I think if you're a Democrat and you weren't shaken to your core last night, you're either dead or just no longer give a damn.  

    I kept hoping, waiting, for Obama to unleash something, anything, but no matter how reasonable his argument, it was steamrolled by Romney's aggression.  Of course, that's partly a reflection on Mr Lehrer.  He was a replacement ref quality moderator, but be that as it may ... Romney snatched a possible victory from the jaws of almost certain defeat last night, and there are few moments of comfort for us Dems.

    Next we get the arrogant prick Paul Ryan and his syrupy baloney. If Biden doesn't kick Ryan and his Ayn Rand-ism into the gutter, and stomp on his head for 90 minutes you can put the bread into the toaster and wave goodbye to everything you've ever hoped for politically.  Yes, it's that bad..



     

     

     


    by MrSmith1 on Thu, 10/04/2012 - 8:29am

    Well Mona, it isn't what I heard, like I said I didn't watch the debate I listened on the radio. It was obviously a different debate on the radio. Romney came off as an ass, a rude lying ass.

    And you are wrong about MSNBC, for around a week now, they've been talking about how the President isn't a strong debater, how he doesn't know how to challenge his opponents. They've stuck with that meme for a while.  Then they go crazy on the night of the debate, what exactly is a mano-a-mano debate? I don't get that?  What is with this faux machismo BS? I don't understand that kind of analysis, that isn't what a debate is it isn't a douche off. 

    I mean it seems like the cable folks were mad that the President said he doesn't watch them and that insulted them, so they ripped him, WTF? And in the scheme of things Romney was rude, he was rude to the moderator, who was horrible by the way, he was rude to the President, he interrupted, he whined about how he wasn't getting to respond, I thought it was relatively embarrassing.  It was a different debate on the radio.

    Then there were all the young people who I know, who immediately began to text and google talk with me when I was on the ferry on the way home, they thought Romney lost too. I thought Romney was offensive and rude, and I think the men on the boob toob are trying to drive a story that isn't.


    by tmccarthy0 on Thu, 10/04/2012 - 8:32am

    Yes, Romney was a rude, lying ass.  Be that as it may, we're talking about how this debate came across to the undecideds, the only group that matters.  They're looking for a leader, and Obama didn't look like a leader last night.  He had a dozen opportunities to challenge Romney's babblings and he didn't do it.

    You might have liked what you heard from Obama--and I did, too--but this was a debate, not a round-table discussion.  Obama needs Bill Clinton as his coach for next time.  John Kerry is a terrible debater, too, which makes it all the more baffling that Obama chose him as chief coach.

    By the way, I didn't need MSNBC to tell me what I was thinking.  I conceded this debate long before the end.  It was dreadful to watch.


    by Ramona on Thu, 10/04/2012 - 8:44am