The Bishop and the Butterfly: Murder, Politics, and the End of the Jazz Age
    Michael Maiello's picture

    The Homeless Aren't Homeless When They Are Sheltered?

    I think it's impossible to be a parent without having moments where you don't fear your own incompetence.  Some day, you know, you will be exposed as something less than a perfect protector, much less provider.  Your child will want something you cannot provide.  That might not be a tragedy, but it will be a moment.  Worse, your child might need something you cannot provide.  That will hurt.

    The New York Times has published a series called Invisible Child about life for children and their families in New York City's homeless shelters.  These places are dangerous because they provide shelter to many unstable people as well as some criminals by choice. They are unsanitary because, well, you can imagine.  Mice and bugs find their way into Manhattan's most expensive and well-maintained buildings.  So they are more than present here.

    The New York Post responds:

    "Begin with the family at the center of this story. The mother, father and eight kids aren't really homeless at all. True, they live in housing meant for "homeless families." But their 540-square-foot unit gives them a solid roof over their heads, in addition to city-provided meals and services."

    They are not homeless, you see, because they live in a homeless shelter.  I don't know what to call this.  Solipsistic Capitalism is my first impulse.  Capitalist Nihilism might be better.

    More:

    "Yes, the family’s housing has problems, including mice and reports of sexual assaults and other crimes. But the Times and Elliott, like much of the liberal establishment, seem to think it’s the city’s job to provide comfortable lives to outrageously irresponsible parents. In this case, that’s a couple with a long history of drug problems and difficulty holding jobs."

    The coda:

    "If the city is at fault here, it might well be for having been too generous — providing so much that neither the father nor mother seems much inclined to provide for their kids. That would be a story worth reading."

    In a way, the Post gets its wish.  I see the conditions that children live in when they turn to their society for help and sure, whatever it takes to avoid that.  I don't even like writing that, though.  You know it can happen to any of us, right?  Do the people at The Post know that the world is full of reversals and that once wealthy and powerful people have been disenfranchised before?  This kind of thing could only have been written by comfortable people who are secure in the knowledge that they will not be caught in some war or social upheaval that will overpower them and change their luck or fortunes forever.

    That does happen to people.  None of them ever imagined it would happen to them.  I don't wish it on anybody, even the crass purveyors of popular opinion who would rather kick the poor than make the world a better place.  But there's a smugness to this kind of commentary that is extremely off-putting.

    If you read a story like Invisible Child and it makes you think that you are a winner and that the subjects of the stories are losers, then you are doing it wrong.  It should make you think, even for a second, about where and how you have been lucky and beyond that it should make you realize that you share a continuum of humanity with the people in those shelters, whether you want to think about it or not.

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    Comments

    I have written about my childhood and included the fact that I thought it was normal to move in the middle of the night!

    I read this article and read a critique at Salon.

    If you pay the monthly rent in this state, the landlord can kick you out by the fifth of the next month if you lack payment (but it takes a couple weeks to get the writ in court)

    If you own your home it takes six months (which really means about a year) for the mortgage folks to kick you out legally.

    Homelessness means having no rights to anything; no certainty of anything; no hope with regards the next day let alone the next week.

    Sometimes the right just gets plain mean!


    I read the first article of the series yesterday. It was harrowing. It's hard to imagine anyone reacting to the story which such callousness, even a NY Post editor. I can think of nothing more appropriate to say than what a bunch of f-cking pricks.


    Now calm down Mike!

    There are hundreds of real pricks writing and talking and appearing on cable every damn day!

    hahahahahahah

    Hell, just read the WSJ. hahahahhahah


    No shortage of pricks, true enough, but most of 'em at least pretend to give a shit about folks. I guess you can give the Post editors credit for being honest pricks.


    I read this a while ago and I've been trying to think of how to respond to it.  Because we have to respond to it, don't we?  It doesn't matter that we're so divided now all we can do anymore is preach to our own choirs.  We have to give these attacks the attention they deserve.  It's a terrible kind of privileged arrogance when a publication of this size has no problem slicing and dicing people so down and out their only hope of a home is a temporary shelter.

    It's winter.   There are children out there.  The poor are with us in greater numbers because we're losing battles they can't afford for us to lose.  We have to stop losing those battles.  There are millions out there who can't take much more of this.

     


    I read Part II in today's print edition, "A Future Resting on a Fragile Foundation." It's got a lot in that basically blasts the city's homeless system as full of incompetence, stupidity, and outright criminality, as it seems many of the male hires are sexual abusers (who basically go unpunished even thought there are written complaints) and some of the guards seem to be sadists as well.

    Dasani's homeroom teacher is seen as a good egg, everything else is a frigging mess. (Note the teacher has to buy her own stuff to do her own good egg work.) The state inspectors do the basics of their job but do not enforce jack shit as far as the city's violations are concerned. It points out in several ways how taxpayers in many cases are throwing good money after bad with the homeless, and in general how stupidly (and even criminally) we are housing and feeding them, probably causing more harm than good.

    It seems to me that NYPost editorial jumped the gun? Seems to me that there are a lot of messages in this one about the incompetence of gummint that they might very much like....


    To be clear what I am implying; this:

    Auburn’s children have yet to assume their parents’ air of defeat. The children’s complaints recount their fear or discomfort as reason enough for action. The adults write as if no one is listening.

    Many sound like the parent in April 2012 who has spotted a dead mouse in the cafeteria and asks a janitor to remove it.

    The next day, the mouse is still there. “A child could have touched it,” the parent recounts telling the janitor, to which the janitor laughs and responds, “Well then you should have cleaned it up.”

    There is no place on the inspection forms for the most common complaint: the disrespect accorded to residents by the shelter staff. Were there such a box to check, it could never capture how these encounters reverberate for days, reinforcing the rock-bottom failure that Auburn represents.

    Is a story not dissimilar to those of the $125K-per-year-do-nothing-janitor stories about the Koch/Dinkins machine.


    I just sat and read the whole series tonight. We need more journalism like this. 

    They can't sweep homelessness under the rug.  The rug is getting to small to hide all of it.  I just thought it was only bad here in South Florida because they came here because of the climate.  We do have 30% of the country's homeless. I have commented on my neighborhood homeless camps.  They would rather sleep outside then in a shelter because things are bad in shelters.  

    This explains why De Blazio won by a landslide.  

    I hope this second gilded age soon gets swept into the dust bin of history.  When this country moves back to populism it will flip quickly like that landslide in New York leaving the pundits surprised.  As the GOP becomes more irrelevant, a labor party could emerge out of the center left.

    This country's future lies in all our kids.   

      


    Perhaps a visit by pope Francis may turn the tide, eh ? 

    Seems he's pretty hot the the subject of the well-to-do trashing the poor and unfortunate.


    There is a conscious and determined effort to impress upon the public the notion that the main cause of our problems is a sub-culture of lazy, irresponsible people that are using the good-intentions of the system to continue their lazy, irresponsible ways.  This mindset has leaped out at me a number of times in recent weeks. Most notably, I've had a 20 year old college student tell me that I relate only to the lazy people and want to punish the successful, hard-working people when I dared to contradict his statement that welfare and unemployment since Clinton has been exploding with facts showing that the exact opposite was true.  He can't grasp the subtleties of society, and the real causes of the ups and downs of the economy, so he's got it set in his mind that there are millions of lazy slackers who are making life unbearable for the hard-working folks by living off the government.  And as a 'hard-working' taxpayer he is forced to pay his hard-earned money to pay for these lazy irresponsible people.  Never mind that the welfare rolls have declined significantly since Clinton ended Welfare as we know it, never mind that the unemployment rates are, after a sharp rise due to the 2009 recession, are now back to only a little over 1% higher than they were in 2000.  This naif is determined to believe he is one of the soon to be successful people because he believes in hard work and that anyone that gets a handout or relies on food stamps is a loser.  I have known this young man and his parents for many years.  I've watched him grow up.  This streak of non-compassion and hatred for 'losers' in society may just be a phase.  But it scares me because their seems to be growing support and encouragement for it in the media;  he posted a website that purportedly interviewed a young woman who bragged about living off the system and told the interviewer, "Why should I work? I'm making more money just sitting around gettin' my check and my food stamps from the government."  When I told the young man that this didn't sound like a real person and that I doubted the interview was legit, he again accused me of siding with the losers who are destroying America through their sloth.   How do you fight such a mindset?  I show him facts and he denies them.  I argue against his logic and he turns angry and accusative.   I will see him at Christmas and will most likely avoid the subject simply because I hate to see this ugly side of a sweet kid that I watched grow up.
    I worry that this mindset is being planted now to set up the poor as the villains for whatever future financial debacle is about to come down the pike.


    One day, when he least expects it by circumstances beyond his control, his services may no longer be necessary or sufficient ... and he'll be exactly what he hates so much now.


    Along these lines, here's a Silicon Alley nobody lamenting the "trash" that has taken over San Francisco...

    http://valleywag.gawker.com/happy-holidays-startup-ceo-complains-sf-is-f...

     


    BUT Dasani, the 11-year old Afro-American homeless subject of the NYT article series, has the same narrative:

    Dasani sees the chasms of Fort Greene more plainly, reasoning that wealth belongs to “the whites” because “they save their money and don’t spend it on drinking and smoking.”

    From Part 3 A Neighborhood's Profound Divide which is on the gentrification and subsequent income disparity of the neighborhood of her shelter. The article segues from that topic into is the story of Dasani's parents:

    Dasani’s matrilineal line, from her great-grandmother to her mother, has followed a trajectory of teenage pregnancy, addiction and violence.

    Dasani's grandmother was a crack addict and her mother bounced between that world and that of her godmother who was her father's common-law wife and her godmother. And her father was the son of heroin addicts. The drug takers did so "on welfare."

    When her grandmother died, Dasani's mother inherited $49,000 of her pension. With Dasani's father, they leased a nice place on Staten Island and decorated it, bought a car. The trajectory that followed that also plays into that same narrative:

    It was not obvious, in that blinding moment, that money could be useful only if they knew how to spend it. To think it would bring salvation was as quixotic as expecting a set of keys to drive a car.

    Money was not going to heal a father who had never been a child. When customers took a seat in Supreme’s chair at the barbershop, they saw a pair of hands expertly at work. They did not see the boy who, at age 7, had learned that very skill by cutting his brothers’ hair while his parents were strung out on heroin.

    What money brought was a quick escape from all that. Over the next two years, Supreme and Chanel bobbed and wove through a fog of addiction. Supreme started doing heroin. Chanel became hooked on painkillers during an extended stay at Staten Island Hospital, where she was being treated for a recurrence of the tuberculosis she contracted in a shelter.

    Children’s Services hovered over the family, ensuring that Chanel and Supreme submit to random drug tests. Eventually, Supreme and Chanel stopped working.

    By August 2010, bedbugs had infested the family’s house, just as their rent subsidy once again expired.

    The city’s shelters were filling with former Advantage recipients — families who had been homeless before taking the rent subsidy, only to become homeless again.

    On Aug. 20, Dasani’s family boarded the ferry to Manhattan, where they headed to the Department of Homeless Services’s intake office in the South Bronx.

    As Dasani’s family approached the entrance, Chanel spotted two abandoned baby turtles in a cardboard box. She stuffed them in her pockets.

    Six days later, the family arrived at Auburn, along with its two forbidden pet turtles and Joanie’s urn.

    Also, this is the reason Dasani's grandmother had that pension:

    Joanie turned her life around after President Bill Clinton signed legislation in 1996 to end “welfare as we know it,” placing time limits and work restrictions on recipients of government aid. She got clean and joined a welfare-to-work program, landing a $22,000-a-year job cleaning subway cars for the Metropolitan Transportation Authority. “This is the happiest day of my life,” she told Chanel.

    I just don't think that things are as simple as either political side makes them out to be. And I think the NYTimes series is trying to show that as well. Seems to me so far there is a lot of grist for all sides in the series.

    Another point. I think that it needs to be continually pointed out that when talking homelessness, places like NYC are special. Housing even the working poor has always been a problem in big, tight cities like NYC. For hundreds of years, most famously here.  In Paris, once they built the subway, they shipped them out to the suburbs, out of sight, out of mind, until there are riots by their unemployed grown children. In Beijing these days, they live underground in little warrens lest they be shipped out of town to some rural place out sight, out of mind....


    I took the tour of the preserved tenement on Grant or Grand Street run by the museum. VERY moving.


    Ultimately, though, the question can't be decided by anecdote.

    What do the big numbers show?

    Lots of lazy, crack-addicted...and actually, addiction, though perhaps more serious than laziness health-wise, isn't the same as laziness, which might be worse than addiction from a moral point of view, or from the the point of view of the tax payer footing the bill...

    ...or people who've "fallen on hard times" (another phrase that can cover a multitude of sins)?

    Dasani is a child and thinks that the adults she sees have "just decided" not to save their money. In a way, she's right; in another way, she's wrong, as we know.


    In pointing out her statement, I was trying to point out that it is probably not something as simple as the result of right-wing agitprop. Rather, as it is coming from an 11-year-old homeless African-American that I don't suspect is a disciple of Bill O'Reilly, it appears to be something that many people might naturally be bound to think.  Political narratives stick best when they appear to have some consistency with what people see with their own eyes or feel in their bones.

    I see a situation where getting up all bound up in outrage at right-wing opinionators too often leads to thinking that if they weren't there, the thoughts they are espousing wouldn't be there. The thoughts are there, deal with them. I think the Dems of the world of LBJ's war on poverty and the decade that followed didn't deal with ordinary people thinking those thoughts, were oblivious to people/voters thinking those thoughts, until it was too late.


    It's definitely not a total right wing thing, Double A.  The whole idea of our economy has these little moral notions embedded in it and both sides believe them, to varying degrees.  We see some aspects of reward for effort and frugality in the system.  It doesn't promise an equal playing field or equal outcomes but we still see a moral component to those outcomes.

    Just read Chris Hayes' Twilight of the Elites and in the end, where he is arguing for a higher estate tax, he quotes Andrew Carnegie as saying that self made millionaires are frugal while inherited millionaires are frivolous.  Hayes follows Carnegie along the moral path -- we should have an estate tax not because people not lucky enough to inherit millions have need for some of those assets but because the tax encourages the moral virtue of frugality.

    Here, the child blames her parents for their circumstances.  To say that they have no agency is pretty insulting.  So, sure.  But then our writer tells us about the father's lost childhood.  That is, by the way, something that nobody is suggesting be restored to him.  He has passed into the phase of life where he is expected to work and save until he can't do that anymore and what was missed is simply gone.  But that's not an answer for him.

    I don't know what people think about that.  I gather that they are not largely sympathetic or that they view such problems as, at best, sadly unsolvable.

    Another force at work is that, as a culture, we like people to act normal.  That means to shut up, go to work, vote for one of the two major parties, remain largely sober and adhere to mainstream fashions.  The economy is the disciplining force for such conformity.  Tying extreme poverty to the results of aberrant behavior is just satisfying for a lot of people.  People are very tied to the notion of the economy as a normalizing force.


    I guess would argue the opposite of what you're saying here...

    Certainly, for the last 40-50 years, really since the emergence of the Silent Majority, the liberal descendants of Johnson have not only "dealt" with folks espousing Dasani's solution...but have largely adopted those solutions.

    Clinton's two most famous achievements--a budget surplus and welfare reform-- are basically in line with Dasani's point of view. The need for a balanced budget or surplus sprang from Dasani's observation that if only the government would save its money and not spend it frivolously, it would be rich.

    Even the largest expansion of entitlements since Johnson--the ACA--was taken lock, stock, and barrel from folks who believe as Dasani does. What is the mandate other than an attempt to root out the freeloaders and make them pay their way?

    Going back further...for most of our history until a brief interregnum in the 1900s, people were left to fend for themselves. God helped those who helped themselves. Exceptions were made for the truly needy, and even today, the right will tell you they have no problem helping the truly needy. It's all those loafers who...

    The big exception to the reign of Dasani's view was the New Deal and its aftermath up to about 1970. Big institutional changes were made. But I would argue that the Depression shifted people's views about themselves and the poor, at least for a while. They no longer saw poverty as something that inhered in "the poor." Poverty was something that could happen to anyone, and through no fault of their own. Even rich people who saved their money could be wiped out.

    So it was important to erect a safety net or firewall for everyone. But since around 1970, Americans have reverted back to our default views on poverty, perhaps with some softening around the edges. But now, even that is under attack based on the kinds of ideological grounds Dasani espouses.

    A brief word on agitprop...

    Propaganda, agitprop, advertising...only work when they enter into the conversations people are already having with themselves. Agitprop can't make people think what they aren't thinking or disposed to think. It gives those thoughts power by articulating them in compelling ways and providing "rational" reasons to believe them. So, in a way, I agree with you here, but it's not as though BO'R is "making" even adults think things they aren't already thinking. And, as I say, it's been the reigning way of thinking in America for most of our history with a few excrudescences of public compassion here and there.

    The fact that this has been the norm for so long is a reason to suspect that there might be something to it (which "something" needs to be explored the how and why), but it doesn't mean it's right or the right way to go, IMO. After all, if helping people to escape poverty (and its attendant woes like drugs) were as simple as telling people to save, well...


    Why must these explanations be mutually exclusive? Below, Donal cites Shipley's The Working Poor, which I haven't read, to argue that workers stayed poor both because they made poor decisions and because the system was set up to exploit them when they did so.

    Examples of both blaze through this remarkable NYT series. Today's installment is even better than its predecessors.


    They are both true.

    Here's what I'd say, just to discuss, not to argue...

    People make decisions at an individual level. I have 49K, and I decide what I'm going to do with it.

    There are a large number of ways I could use the 49K--some good, some bad, some indifferent--but probably many fewer options that I know of, feel comfortable with, understand, have access to, and so on. So if there are 100 ways I could use that 49K, there may be only 10 that are real options, practically speaking.

    If I get some education and some guidance, those options increase, and I get better at sifting out the bad ones and homing in on the good ones. If I'm born with guidance, savvy, accomplished parents, I have another leg up.

    This is true for ALL of us at different levels and in different ways. In fact, I'd wager that everyone who reads Dagblog, and certainly all the regulars, have no real excuse for not following Dasani's advice: Save and become rich. Or at least far better off and less worried about money than you are now.

    And if it's true for people who are basically middle-class, it's even more true for people who are chronically struggling, addicted, uneducated, etc. Or, to put it another way, if Dasani is right about her family, then how much more right would she be in giving that same advice to Dagbloggers and their families.

    Emotions play a HUGE role in this. If you've ever invested, you know how your emotions can easily lead you to buy high and sell low. Over and over again. If you've ever tried to sell anything, you know that people buy with their emotions and then later justify their choices with "reasons."

    So here's the other side...

    Even though we make decisions one by one and person by person, if we see a group of people who are chronically making bad decisions, really bad decisions, and there are patterns in these bad decisions, it's unreasonable (I think) to conclude that all these people "just happened" to make really bad decisions over and over again when the rest of the population is making a mix of good and bad decisions.

    (I'm leaving out the idea that other people take advantage of people who make bad decisions, a system that's rigged against those people and takes them down with the undertow, and so on.)

    After all, when you look at the average person (if there is such a thing), the bar for making an average mix of good and bad decisions is...low. Nothing even close to George Soros or Warren Buffet. More like the average guy who over extends his credit card, lives a bit beyond his means, loses half his retirement in the crash because he didn't hedge, and so on. The average person is not good with money.

    Why do we think that folks on the bottom of the heap are going to be good with the money they have?

    When I see 49K, I literally see a way to put down a bigger down payment and reduce my monthly payments for 30 years, which savings I can put away for when I turn 75, and occasionally dip into for trips to funky Nassau.

    When Joe sees 49K, he literally sees himself in a new Mustang that will be worth half that as soon as he drives it off the lot and will burn gas like there's no tomorrow.

    When Bill sees 49K, he literally sees a supply of crack for the whole of 2014.

    There was a good article which I think I found on TPM about why poor people use their money so poorly, i.e., buy things they can't afford when they'd be far better off spending that money in other ways. She conflated poor with black, I think, which was part of her argument, but doesn't have to be. And she wasn't even talking about rock-bottom poor like Dasani and her family. Worth reading...

    It's good, even necessary, see oneself as the author of one's own life, not as a pre-determined statistic. But it's also worth recognizing that there were many options--options you truly could have chosen--options for doing worse, but also options for doing much better-- that, for any number of visible and invisible reasons, were simply not within your ken, your field of vision, your concept of yourself, your distorted, but all too real and determinative, sense of personal possibility.

    So when I hear people say that So-and-So could've done X...I tend to think, "Yes, but...sure they could've...no question they coulda, shoulda, woulda."

    So my answer to AA's question below about what to do would be this: People who take social services jobs and teaching jobs in the toughest neighborhoods have to be the best trained and best paid and most motivated of all hires. The best of the best. No expense spared on training or support. And their supervisors and the ones who hire them should be paid next highest. Like NFL coaches and their star players. And the commitment has to be long-term.

     


    I'm all for it. Our market-based economy screws up our priorities, encouraging the best and brightest to apply their minds to skimming profits from debt vehicles rather than investing in humanity.

    But keep in mind that even highly paid inner-city teachers and social workers are no panacea.

    PS That TPM piece got a lot of attention, but I have to say that it bugged me. Sure, buying expensive clothes can be a rational investment when you're looking for a job, but the article seemed to suggest that most decadant purchases are actually covert methods of social advancement. I don't blame the writer so much as TPM's exaggerated headline.


    There is no panacea. Not that you're suggesting it, I can't see measuring a program against the standard of "panacea" as productive.

    It's enough to make improvements, and the only requirement, IMO, is that you continue to make improvements. Or keep trying when you hit brick walls.

    But now that I think about it, you bring out an important point. It's very common to hear people say: "Look at all those programs and all that money we've spent, and we still have poverty." They think that's a valid argument against those programs.

    But if we moved the needle ten points, then we moved it ten points. We haven't "eliminated poverty," but then, neither has charity, the Church, and the beneficence of the great foundations left by the robber barons. And they've been at it a lot longer.

    Then there are some real oddities when ideology trumps empirical evidence even at the expense of one or more of the ideology's key principles. For example...

    In the article, she talks about Bloomberg's move to Advantage, temporary housing assistance, as a replacement for ongoing assistance. As a conservative, he notes that ongoing assistance encourages dependency. We need to help people, but people also need to get off their duff and become independent.

    (He also seems to think that ongoing assistance for housing incentives people to move into shelters. Not sure how that works, but never mind.)

    Anyway, Advantage seems to have ballooned the shelter population. When the assistance stops, people can't afford their apartments and move into shelters. But note: housing assistance amounts to about $1,500 per month for a family, while sheltering that same family costs about $3,400. Where's the economic sense in that?

    Unless we're going to allow people to live on the streets and fend for themselves when the bottom falls out, we need to commit to a baseline of making sure everyone has clean, safe shelter first...and then work to get people onto their own two feet. And we have to admit that some people will never make it.

    I don't think most people want to live in even a clean, safe shelter. They would prefer to work and rent or buy their own apartments. (Drugs twist that equation in their own unique way, which is an issue that needs to be addressed.) As much as conservatives sing the praises of "liberty" and "hard work," they don't seem to believe that these values are inherently attractive. They seem to believe that people need to be prodded into working hard under the threat of homelessness. Otherwise, they'll become layabouts. They seem to believe that promise of having "your own place" where you can do what you want and a tidy bank account isn't enough for most people.

    So beyond what I recommend above, and maybe this is even more important, you need top flight people at the top setting direction, overseeing the hiring, and following up--including surprise visits to the shelters to check up on the social services people, not the residents.

    There's a lot of talk on the right about holding teachers accountable, getting rid of the dead wood, etc. Since my wife's become a teacher, I've gotten to see through her eyes that there are a bunch of bad teachers. There are also a bunch of good teachers. But the real key to a top-performing school is the administration. They set the tone and the standards and are also the only ones in a position to provide the support and resources teachers need to do a good job.

    But there are no panaceas...I agree.


    I haven't read all the sections yet, but the reporter really should swim upstream and investigate the higher reaches of policymaking and implementation in the city.

    And give us a second long-form exposé...

    She indicates that certain decisions were made, e.g., Advantage, but doesn't give us much insight (thus far) into the why and how.

    For example, the higher ups clearly are aware of abuses by inspectors and social workers at Auburn. There have been reprimands, but no firings. Some malefactors have even gotten raises after the reprimand, if I read correctly.

    Why? What is being done to correct this behavior, if anything? What is the city doing to make sure the policies are correct? Are they working or not? What are the finances really like? Who is calling the shots?

    No doubt Dasani has become something of a celebrity since this article, but it would be a shame if all the attention were on her and the many other Dasanis in Auburn or in other shelters were passed over.

    I'm sure a wonkier investigation wouldn't garner the readership this story has, but it might be even more important to people like Dasani and her parents.


    I know that some very young white males that have been well taken care of have opinions like that.  They think they have the world figured out until reality smacks them across the side of the head. If not they turn into the crazy Uncle at Thanksgiving dinner. 


    We have to control the reigning rhetoric...the "common sense" context.

    Liberals controlled it post-Depression through the early 1970s and have lost it since.

    So even though conservatives are struggling electorally, they've basically won (for the moment at least) the war of ideas.

    This is why Democrats frequently appear to be "Republican lite": They've accepted the basic premises, the often unstated but powerful premises, of the conservative view of how society, the economy, and human nature work.

    And they've accepted these basic premises because they feel their constituents have accepted them...that arguing against "common sense" notions like "the government needs to tighten its budget just like any family does" is political suicide.

    All those conservative think tanks laid the ideological groundwork that made it possible for Reagan et al to speak to the electorate in these terms and win big. Even now, as utter bunglers, they're still in the game.

    One of the bits of wisdom that you hear repeated often is that despite all the money we/the government has spent on poverty, poverty has only grown worse or hasn't budged. Sometimes, they say LBJ's "War On Poverty" was a failure.

    So I was somewhat shocked to read in WaPo yesterday, the following:

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2013/12/10/heres-how-the...

    ...which is at least a start in the right direction, IMO.


    Thanks for the link.  I find the last chart the most important one.  Because of the expansion of TANF there is less extreme poverty, with out it , poverty is 29%.  That points to the hidden poverty out side of the ghettoes.  Living outside of the areas that have the most poverty is still hard on the kids.  They face many stresses also. 


    It should make you think, even for a second, about where and how you have been lucky and beyond that it should make you realize that you share a continuum of humanity with the people in those shelters, whether you want to think about it or not.

    And after that Mike, what?

    Dasani's family is being assisted by fairly expensive government programs. Granted, the articles point out that they are not being funded to the full extent intended, that there are cuts that cause problems. But the articles so far seem to be suggesting that they are not doing much to help, that they are not addressing the answer to Dasani's family's problems . And even that a lot of the people with jobs in the program are part of the problem!

    So far, the articles are developing a narrative where government does not yet have the answers.

    Some on this thread are implying that all this is the result of Bloomberg/rich people hardheartedness and all will be better when DeBlasio comes in. I see the NYT series so far developing a story where an Independent mayor finally solved some of the problems of people on the streets that previous mayors could not, and still it's a mess and not helping very much. Because government hires in this town are often bad hires.

    And I gotta say it: even with all the problems, it certainly sounds a step up from what we had in the past under Koch and Dinkins: people sitting up into the wee hours on chairs in an office with their kids, waiting for a bus to a vast Armory shelter with cots.

    Those guards that humiliate the residents, some via sexual abuse? The rules that humiliate? The thefts? They are part of a government solution. Where you can't treat some recipients worse than others just because they have a criminal record. And where you give people who might not be qualified for what they are doing a government job so they have a job and are not homeless themselves. No doubt they vote Democrat and are Obama fans as well.

    And in the end, working lower class looking down on those below them, what is new there?

    I think it's clear that this is one of those problems that government still doesn't have good solutions to: homelessness in big cities. Sympathy and empathy is nice and reflects well on the people with those reactions, but it's not a solution.

    So far I think the NYT is reporting that if more money and more effort is a solution, this is what more money and more effort has got us so far. Not that nobody cares. Don't be waylaid by simplistic NYPost spin on it.


    You're right, more of the same isn't a solution.  The solution is bigger than the cities.  It's a minimum standard of living, set nationally that applies even to people who might otherwise be labeled as worker refusers.  Otherwise, this is what we get and there's too much innocent collateral damage.


    I hate to be a nattering nabob of negativism, but these thoughts just came to me after skimming over this part of Dasani Part 3 again:

    Chanel and Supreme were summoned to the Administration for Children’s Services office in Bedford-Stuyvesant — the same brick building where Supreme had been escorted as a child.

    Standing there, in the lobby, the memory came rushing back. Supreme was 9 again, losing his sister, then his parents, then his other siblings, all in the course of a day.

    Soon his own children became accustomed to knocks at the door as the agency’s caseworkers, responding to a handful of complaints about possible neglect, began to monitor the family. They inspected the children from head to toe, searching for signs of abuse.

    Dasani learned to spot a social worker on the street by the person’s bag (large enough to hold files). She became expert at the complex psychic task of managing strangers — of reading facial expressions and interpreting intonations, of knowing when to say the right thing or to avoid the wrong one.

    “They can use that in a court of law against the parent,” she says, back in the voice of “Criminal Minds.”

    She pauses.

    “I love my parents. They’re tough, but I should not be taken away from them.”

    This is why someone like Newt Gingrich essentially advocated a Soviet solution of taking children away from such a situation and putting them in orphanages. Incongruously for a libertarian leaning conservative.

    Dasani learned intuitively and quickly to fool the social worker. I think that most children will do this. I strongly remember as a child my own mother fearing the visit of a public health nurse after childbirth because the house was a mess and she was not interested in submitting to instructions about taking care of babies which she felt she had a lot of experience doing. I clearly felt this message: this is the enemy coming.

    What solution do we have to counter that? Often government interference is not welcome in poor and troubled people's lives!

    Dasani's father was capable of getting and keeping a job as a barber, so a decent-paying job was not the main problem.

    Neither did a one-time monetary "grant" of $49,000 solve the family's problems.

    Paying a minimum income to addicts would definitely keep them alive and off the streets, especially if rent and food are done with vouchers and not cash, but that does not solve the problem of the future of their children like Dasani. Which is basically what the article series is about, the future of children like Dasani. So far I see a theme developing where school is her refuge, the one place where she could be saved....


    If the children are not amenable to being taken, maybe that's a good sign?  Does a family struggling to get by on a barber's salary really need social workers snooping around, making threats and giving orders?  Do you think that relieves stress and makes it easier to get off drugs or to even moderate drug use?


    And, you bring up something else that troubles me about this.  The Times series is about the children.  To the extent that most people can muster concern, it is for the children.  They are, after all innocent of everything but being unlucky at being born.

    What I don't see is much concern for the hopes and dreams of the adults.  It's as if their stories have already been written even though they are not dead yet.  To the extent that anyone wants them to succeed it is for the children.  That's a worthy goal, of course, but it is not the only goal for a dignified adult life.


    They need a "school refuge" too? One that they chose (unlike kids who don't get to chose.) One where "students" of all economic classes are treated alike?


    That said, I am not eager to give a mulligan in this day and age to an adult who has 8 children without any idea how they plan to pay for the upkeep of those children. I can see having 2, 3 or even 4 kids by mistake, but not 8. It doesn't matter whether they are Afro-American, Hasidic, a Bible Belt Christian or drug addicts, or Octomom. It's one thing to have 8 children that you are managing to raise somehow and then fall on hard times. It's another to continue to have those children even though you are already struggling in hard times. Society after society has shown that this is not the way out of poverty. This modus operandi may have helped dirt poor farmers when everyone was a farmer, and when children could be sent to work in sweatshops for a few extra pennies, but that's not the world we live in anymore.

    I am writing after reading the start of Part 4, Finding Strength in Bonds of Family. It's ye olde romanticizing of the big poor family, it's the flip side Waltons, geez....poor but proud, they got each other...okay right, let's all procreate a lot more, that'll help raise all boats...is that you Pope Paul VI?



    The trouble is, we want our poor to have some nobility about them and look like they might clean up well.  We want them not to smell.  If we give them our attention we want to know it's appreciated.

    We want to know going in that they get what we're trying to do for them, and if they embarrass us or disappoint us or let their anger or their habit get out of hand we'll move on.  Their failure, not ours.

    We see some hope for their children.  If there's any possibility of success it lies with them.  Besides which, the children are helpless.  Never mind that, at this point, so are their parents.  We love children.  We don't love losers.

     


    P.S. A clue stood out in my mind here in Part 2, where Dasani's talented homeroom teacher, who overcame a bad background herself, says about the intern master's degree student acting as counselor to Dasani:

    Miss Hester wonders about these counseling sessions. She finds Roxanne bright and devoted, but worries that Dasani will run circles around the intern, whose overriding quality is sweetness.

    “I don’t need ‘sweet,’” Miss Hester says. “I need a Ph.D.”

    What that means to me is that one solution to this problem is that government hires need to be very high quality hires, very selective. Which is the opposite of the current left-of-the-aisle meme of using government to supply jobs to everyone who is unemployed, and also opposing the meme of always supporting teachers' unions and other education unions.


    We pay cruddy public wages and get cruddy employees...


    Poverty is simple to cure.

    The cure is money, the means is a guaranteed national minimum income (negative income tax) as proposed by that profound liberal, Richard Nixon.

    We should do it because:

    1. Nothing will harsh your mellow when you are getting your rich on like seeing someone out in the street, especially a kid

    2. Taking 95% of all marginal income over 1,000,000 a year and using it for the aforementioned guaranteed national income will cause the economy to fuckin' boom.

    We know this from history.

    Ergo, nobody need actually perform like a human being of conscience.

    Simple self-interest, sufficiently enlightened, will do.

    We cannot, however, afford to coddle the pathology of greed in the service of plastering over the empty holes in the souls of the ruling class.  They must raise their game, mental healthwise, or just get the fuck out of the way of progress.


    Well, something like that might cure "poverty" but I don't see it solving finding a family of 10 a rental in a safe neighborhood big enough for all the kids in today's NYC.

    We can talk big generalities like "poverty," or we can talk the distinct problems of the current homeless in NYC (or Paris or Beijing.) Everybody that wants to live here cheaply but in comfortable fashion cannot live here cheaply, they cannot all fit. They could do some social engineering, I suppose, like every time a foreigner buys a Manhattan condo, make it so they also have to pay for a 4-bedroom apartment in Queens for welfare recipients? But when does that sort of taxation on a local level start to have negative rebound, where you end up looking like Camden, NJ (or Milwaukee, WI, my hometown, of which the white flight story is its main story now) or Detroit?

    The Federal tax refund issue is actually addressed in Part 3 of the series. Dasani's mom has high hopes that her relatively large income tax credit (relatively large because she has so many children,) combined with Dasani's father's refund, and her scrimping and saving of every dime, will get them out of town where rents are actually possible for a family of her size. But then after some other setbacks, excessive childbearing strikes in another way:

    By now, Supreme has learned that his tax refund was seized by the government for child support owed to two other children he had before meeting Chanel.

    Let me be clear where I am coming from: giving lower income people more money will help poverty a great deal. But it will not solve a lot of the current homelessness problem, especially that problem in big cities that are popular to live in. I think general poverty and homelessness are often two distinct issues! China solves it by just making them move somewhere across the country where's there is new housing!

    And a pre-emptive: traditional rent control will not help cities like NYC and San Francisco, where the vibrancy depends on a continual influx of new people from all over the country and world. It would rather make sure that people living there now stayed put and no one new got in. And further ramp up the values of owner-occupied owned apartments. And do I need to remind that huge high rise developments in big cities exclusively for low income tenants have a bad reputation regarding solving poverty problems, they are called "projects"?

    Further, on the guaranteed basic income not necessarily being a panacea. Emma Zahn and I have been exchanging thoughts on it before her most recent post on the matter. There was one reply she gave me on this thread that made me hit my forehead and say DOH!--

    FWIW, here is a response to the NYT article that raises some interesting points about a basic income. One of them is that while it may reduce current poverty, it would raise prices and have minimal effect on inequality. Therefore, it would not be long before everything settles back to the status quo but with an upped ante aka where we are now or worse. At least that was my main take.

    A government-guaranteed basic income: The cheque is in the mail | The Economist [free, but registration required]


    The inflation point is a tough one.  We can put a Merecedes in every garage, but that will either drive up the prices of a Mercedes and diminish while, of course, insuring that no rich person would ever want one.


    Does SNAP inflate the price of bread? Or other foods?

    There was a good piece on Up With Chris Hayes last night about the price of milk, which is poised to spike to $7 a gallon if Congress doesn't pass the farm bill.

    The point is--and I don't know the mechanics of it--but subsidies to dairy farmers have enabled them to sell milk at the price we are accustomed to. If I understand correctly, the subsidies both keep prices down and give farmers a reliably high income.

    Does all this subsidizing boost inflation past the point where the average person can no longer afford milk?


    Another excellent point.  I haven't seen data.  SNAP is likely inflationary to some degree.  But, as you say, it's not like food commodities exist in some sort of perfect market, given all the subsidies on the input side.


    Let me be clear where I am coming from: giving lower income people more money will help poverty a great deal. But it will not solve a lot of the current homelessness problem, especially that problem in big cities that are popular to live in. I think general poverty and homelessness are often two distinct issues!

    What is wrong with "helping poverty a great deal"?

    It seems to me that a certain category of solutions--"government help or intervention"--is being slammed because it doesn't take care of ALL the problems contributing to a family's plight.

    Giving people a guaranteed minimum income also won't get people off of drugs. So? Yes, you have to do other things to solve THAT part of the problem.

    Dasani's solution--and the right wing solution and even the American solution for most of our history--is to have her parents save more. "God helps those who help themselves." Well, that won't buy them an apartment in NYC either; nor will it get anyone off drugs; nor will it end poverty because, again, for most of our history that has been the American response to poverty, homelessness, hunger, etc.: The poor need to buck up and stop doing the things that "made" them poor in the first place.

    Edit to add: And yet, if bucking up and saving were "the solution," then we would never have the chronically poor. Dasani shouldn't be so stingy with "the solution." She should let her parents know.


    FWIW, here is a response to the NYT article that raises some interesting points about a basic income. One of them is that while it may reduce current poverty, it would raise prices and have minimal effect on inequality.

    So what? How many problems do we have to solve at the same time for a policy to be a good step forward?

    Again, if it "may reduce current poverty" that would seem to be a good thing. If it has minimal effect on inequality, then that is a separate issue. Poverty is only extreme inequality; the two aren't co-terminous in my reading.

    The inflation point is besides the point, IMO. If all these people got jobs that paid, say, $15 an hour that would also raise the inflation rate (perhaps), but The Economist would not be warning about that--would they? They'd be cheering the new-found industriousness of the poor. "Hey look! God bless! The unemployed and chronically poor are racing to take the jobs they formerly scorned. We may see inflation heating up, but that's a good problem to have!"

    You make some very good points above about the poor quality of the government workers tasked with implementing programs. Corruption, ineptitude, greed. But I don't see why that brush should be allowed to tar the whole category of solutions called "government intervention." If we did that, then fairness would dictate that we apply the same broad brush to all the corruption, ineptitude, and greed running rife through the world of private solutions--not to mention church solutions--to poverty.

    Moreover, the only bright spot in Dasani's world seems to a government worker--her teacher. Or is she in private school? I didn't notice.


    What that means to me is that one solution to this problem is that government hires need to be very high quality hires, very selective. Which is the opposite of the current left-of-the-aisle meme of using government to supply jobs to everyone who is unemployed, and also opposing the meme of always supporting teachers' unions and other education unions.

    No; it is not "the opposite." Just to use an extreme to make the point clearer: No one is recommending that the government hire a bunch of guys hanging around the U-Haul outlet as "government heart surgeons."

    There are lots of jobs people can do and could be hired for. There are even more jobs people could be trained to do and then hired for. They all have different ranges of skill requirements and aptitude requirements and motivation requirements.

    Counselor is one that requires training, skill, and a certain mental and emotional attitude. No one in his right mind is suggesting that we pull a bunch of guys off the street and send them off to be counselors. The fact that there are bad, poorly trained counselors working for the government means there are bad, poorly trained counselors working for the government. There are many in the private sector, too. Which meme is responsible for their presence?

    This is a strawdog.


    There has to be a better minimum standard of living.  I am glad to see the conversation move to raise the minimum wage level in the government.  We should stress the quality of life index as important as the gross national product index.  Our children is also the product of our economy.  Why are we letting them languish in poverty?  

    The article takes a close look at poverty in a family who struggles with drug addiction. There are families that struggle with poverty who are not addicts. They keep trying hard to make things a little better for their families with what ever help they can find in the system and spend all their energy on it. Even if the system works for them they are still hitting a ceiling because of low wages.  


    I've been chewing on the fascinating debate in this thread. Part of the complexity here is that Dasani's parents are such hard cases. Though burdened by terrible disadvantages, they've also managed to squander what advantages they had. Part 1, we hear that Auburn is "a place of last resort" for the "chronically homeless." In Part 3, we learn that a $50K inheritance once got the family into a Staten Island apartment where both parents held jobs--until substance addiction got in the way. Under the circumstances, simply giving them more money seems like a poor solution.

    But what to do about the children? How can we allow them to suffer for their parents failings? In extreme situations, they would be sent to foster care--as Dasani and her siblings very nearly were--but that's an awful solution as well.

    The question strikes close to home for me because of a family member who struggles with financial irresponsibility. She is a good mother and doesn't do drugs, but she has never been able to keep a regular job. When she does work, her paychecks disappear almost instantaneously.

    She does have one advantage that Dasani's family lacks: devoted middle-class parents. For the sake of their two granddaughters, they pay for her apartment, groceries, clothing, and utilities. They take the older girl to school and help her with homework. They help their daughter to navigate government and corporate bureaucracies.

    In a sad, small way, the government does for Dasani's family what this woman's parents do for her family. The city provides shelter, the state offers education, the feds pay for food stamps. Dasani will not die of starvation or freeze to death or live in ignorance. The tragic part, to my reading, is that these compensations are so meager. A one-room rodent-infested apartment for a family of ten without even decent mattresses to sleep on? It requires great hubris to think the government can save every child from his or her parents or every adult from his or herself, but surely we can do better than this.


    They strike home to me as well. I read Shipley's The Working Poor back in 2008, and my takeaway was that workers stayed poor both because they made poor decisions and because the system was set up to exploit them when they did so.

    Wealthier people seem to get second, third and fourth chances. Poor people don't often get help, but even when they get it, they often continue to flounder.


    The institutional biases are a huge thing.  Banks demand minimum balances for no fee checking accounts and minimum balances for even opening a savings account.  If you do not have those minimums, you have to pay people to cash your checks.

    If you are the type of person who typically has less than $1,000 a month in the bank, you are paying fees.  If you have more money, no fees.  The fees are fixed.  If you pay $15 a month on an average $1,500 that's a 1.5% tax to the bank.  It's real. When you have more money, economies of scale move in your favor.

    If you have more money you can get cheaper credit.  If you have more money you can selectively save money by making bulk purchases.  If you have more money you can stretch your dollar further.  If you don't have it, every day is trickier.


    One thing I never entirely understood was why people with better credit got better rates and people with poorer credit or resources got higher rates.

    I understand the arguments, but don't higher rates make it more likely the poor person will default?


    I don't know Michael. I've always had free checking accounts for 35 years in PA, Florida, and now in Arizona. Usually with no minimum balance. There's always been some bank in every area I've lived that offered accounts with no minimum balance.


    That is good to hear.  I don't think the notion that banks offer lower fee services to bigger accounts is that controversial, though.  It might be able shopping around and finding community banks and credit unions.  I do now that for people who do not have bank accounts for whatever reason that check cashing fees are a pretty big deal.


    When I was traveling I would sometimes do day labor when funds ran a bit low. Every day the people I worked with would go across the street to the nearest store to cash their check and the fee was $4. This on a minimum wage 8 hour check. That was about fifteen or twenty years ago. I had a bank account, but I couldn't cash the check. I had to deposit it and wait a day or so. No problem for me but those other guys were living day to day.

     


    Yes, it's very common for some time now.


    I think we all know people in this boat.  We don't know how they would live without parental help.  If they ever plan on retiring, we assume they know something about  future inheritance that they haven't told us about.  It is frequent enough that it makes me wonder if holding a steady job and being "responsible" with finances is even a normal human trait.

    There are some people who just can or will not do it.  Some of them find other ways around it though to be successfully self-employed is often more work.  If you lump all of the entrepreneurs and opt-outs together, I think you get a huge population for people who would tell you that the 9-12 hour workday where you do what the boss says and follow the rules is not for them.  But we have built most of our society around this arrangement.

    A lot of what I see as the harsher reactions to people on public assistance amounts, in my mind, to certain people saying, "Good.  They are supposed to be uncomfortable.  They are supposed to be so uncomfortable that they shape up and get with the program.

    But the problem is that the program doesn't work for a whole lot of people.


    Overall the series makes me wonder if anyone else but me on the left side of the aisle gets upset about the farce (and humiliation for the poor) of so much of the "government help" sprinkled through the article. Stuff like this, from Part 4:

    [....] In theory, they are heading to the thing they most need — psychotherapy. Chanel signed them up after learning that she can reap $10 per child in carfare through Medicaid, at a clinic in the Kensington section of Brooklyn [....]

    Inside, the children file into their fourth “group therapy” session with a woman who asks vague questions like, “What are your hobbies?” She sounds more like a distant aunt than a counselor.

    Khaliq knows the difference. Earlier in the year, a Children’s Services caseworker had sent him to a therapist after he acted erratically in school. That therapist had asked questions like, “Do you want to kill yourself?” Those sessions felt like they never ended; these lasted only 20 minutes — roughly two and a half minutes per child.

    At the door, Chanel collects her $80 in carfare and the children head back into the rain. The cash instantly settles the family, leaving the children calm and Chanel introspective [....]

    This is big Federal government helping poor people?

    To me, it looks like the only people being helped here is that psychotherapist collecting a salary for a make work government-billed job.

    This type of thing is what I think of when I see people like Dan Kervick advocate for a government job guarantee for anyone who wants a job and for government to spend more money on programs, any programs, just to ramp up the economy. Not just a waste of tax money and not just dishonest use of tax money. But also people torturing/humilitating other people, making them jump through hoops doing something they don't want to do and isn't helping their life, to get what they need, rather than really just helping them get what they need.

    Need I mention that this is the same Medicaid that everyone is so happy that more people are being signed up for?

    Is someone going to investigate this clinic, or what? We just accept this situation as a make shift way to help the poor through them making a profit on carfare reimbursement by taking mass transit? Don't complain, because real therapy by a decent therapist would just be more time consuming? It's working out fine this way, everyone gets some money and no conservatives know it's not really being spent on real health care?

    Nearly everybody scamming, few really helping, this is the best government can do? If a place like NYC can't do it, who can?

    Pre-emptive: no I don't buy that the presence of Dasani's teacher and principal in her life proves that government is working! There's not a single person working at the Auburn shelter that the reporter has anything good to say about! That means we've got a ratio of like 1 in 50 people who work for the government doing a decent honest job in this story. I don't accept that as success.

    I don't know what the answer is beyond that we must demand much better work and much better planning and better employees from our government. And just raising pay without incredibly better vetting of hires just leads to more Tony Soprano style government. There's got to be far far more accountability and responsibility. It's kind of a sick joke in a way that Dasani gets lectures on that from her principal when a lot of the people with authority over her life need those lectures more than she does.


    This type of thing is what I think of when I see people like Dan Kervick advocate for a government job guarantee for anyone who wants a job and for government to spend more money on programs, any programs, just to ramp up the economy.

    This may be what you think of, but as noted above, it's a non sequitur.

    A job guarantee for everyone does NOT mean everyone gets to have any job he wants. Everyone doesn't get to be a counselor. Everyone doesn't get to be a heart surgeon. Nor does everyone get to be an art appraiser.

    In short, a guaranteed job doesn't mean that anyone and everyone would or should get hired to do any and all jobs.

    How hard is that to get?

    Moreover, there's a "small" component about training and retraining that's part of the proposal that you simply leave out or skip over because it doesn't fit your narrative.

    You are more than correct to point out that the damage being done here, but your argument above is baseless. A straw dog.

    Just to correct "the record": My point about the public school teacher was not to make a blanket statement that "government is working" or the "government is the answer to all our prayers" or however else you want to distort what I said.

    But it is interesting that the one bright spot in the whole thing IS a government worker, hired by the government, and someone with good training and good skills, which sort of suggests that the prevalent meme--"the government can do no good"-- needs a little nuance. Something I thought you were usually for.


    Another of the problems here is the pernicious notion that everything can be psychologically diagnosed and treated.  This turns psychologists and counselors into potential bullies.  It even empowers school workers to order psychological evaluations and then to coerce parents into going along with the recommended treatment whether they agree or not.  Nasty, nasty stuff.

    Double A, I think we're both troubled by the infantilizing of the poor that's run amok in the system.  A person needs help and they are robbed of their humanity.  I seem to remember that in social services there was a period where people were supposed to be treated as "clients" with all of the autonomy and authority that such a title implies.  That seems either to have been abandoned or not to have stuck here.  These people are being treated as if they either have no agency or have no right to agency.


    No sarcasm here intended, but we could just remove all the supports.

    Or make them very short-termed.

    And see what happens...


    We could... or we could find a more dignified and respectful way of providing support.  You know, unemployment benefits, food stamps and the like are not handouts, they are a form of insurance.  They are there for anybody who needs them and have been paid for by working people.  You hope you never have to draw on any of this.  But if you do, there should not be any more stigma to it than there is a stigma to filing an insurance claim on your house or car.


    Well I hope one thing that comes out of the series is more attention paid to the written complaints of the shelter inhabitants. The reporter made it sound like they were basically tossed in the circular file. The taxpayers should at least care that they are hiring sex abusers and thieves.

    Then there's this apparent system where state inspectors are paid to write reports that nobody does anything about. Swell use of tax dollars. Albany, still a cesspool in general? Gov. Cuomo, got anything to say on that?


    They are robbed of their humanity, I'd argue, because taxpayers don't want to just hand over a bunch of money without any control over how it's used.

    This feeling becomes more extreme when the people getting the benefits are people who haven't paid in much or anything at all.

    It's a ready-made issue for demagoguery, which is why I think the whole mindset, the "common sense" wisdom has to change.

    Edit to add: Note that, even when someone has paid for SNAP while working, he can use SNAP to buy any old thing that he, in his adult autonomy, feels he wants, needs or can use. And when people are caught using SNAP to buy booze or cigarettes, the public disapproves--that is the same public who thinks, as Dasani does, that poor people just need to save to become rich like white people.

     

     


    You can't use SNAP for booze or cigarettes. It can only be used for food items. That does include soda or sweets. To buy non food items a person has to find a criminal store owner or buy food and sell it to a friend. There are occasional stories of people prosecuted for this but I'd guess that type of fraud is rare.


    True, but the question here is: Are these restrictions dignified and respectful of the person who has paid his "premiums" for all these years for an "insurance" he's now making claims against? Generally, a claimant/policyholder can use his benefits any way he or she sees fit. Just as with Social Security.

    To put the question in MM's terms: Isn't it infantilizing to suggest that the SNAP recipient (who has paid for this benefit, after all) doesn't know what he should be buying and eating, but must be coerced into buying only certain things and not other things with his hard-earned benefit?


    I could take you a walk through late 19th century and first half 20th century history of women being trained in domestic arts.  This isn't the thread to do that at.  But we are not doing enough of that kind of education today. There should be urban centers that teach women how to survive poverty like the centers that FDR set up in the very poor rural areas through the Agriculture Dept.  It takes real skills to navigate through all the crap today if you are very poor.  Just learning how to feed a family with a very limited budget would be a big help for these women.  How to find the resources that they need. How to make do with what is available. You can't dictate what food SNAP can be used for because many people have special food needs.  There is only one western country that has more children in poverty then us and that is Romania.  We are one notch above Romania that is unacceptable. Shame on us. 


    I agree with you 100%.

    Not sure how you're being responsive to what I said, but no matter.

    We agree.

    To add: Ah, now I see. Education v coercive rules about how benefits can be spent. This is a good point. Maybe "the right" could be persuaded to go along with giving poor folks a "home economics" education.


    It's unclear (to me at least).

    In any event, too many sodas and sweets...bad news.


    Michael, ultimately, the difficulty with what you're saying is that there's a difference (at least an optical one) in the public's mind between someone who pays for these benefits for years and years and then has to use them versus someone who has barely paid in anything (by appearances at least) and is using far more than he's paid in.

    Personally, I don't have a problem with this for reasons that go beyond the notion of "insurance" (though it's a good notion) and more to do with being one's brother's keeper. Momoe's suggestion about education IS respectful and useful and empowering and goes pretty far beyond the money people have paid in.

    However, a good portion of the public does. These are the people whose voices AA informs me "we need to deal with" and were formerly drowned out by all the Johnson-ites. They came close-ish to winning the presidential election a year ago. They have sewn up many of the state houses and governorships. They've brought the federal government, at least Congress, to a grinding halt. They've removed democratically elected officials throughout Michigan. Many come from safe, gerrymandered districts, and are ready to throw themselves, or at the least the country, on their swords to cut back on this particular kind of spending.


    Maybe we need to educate everybody better, then.  The way social insurance like food stamps, unemployment and the like works is that you not only pay for them, with your taxes before you get into trouble but, since getting back to work is the only way out, you also pay after.  The chances of getting more than you'll put in on a reasonably discounted basis seems slim.  But some people can't fathom that.


    These are the people whose voices AA informs me "we need to deal with"

    No, that's not who I was referring to. I basically meant the Reagan Democrat phenomenon. It was highly motivated by LBJ era welfare programs as we used to know them. You can throw people like Senator Pat Moynihan into the mix, too. And wiithout the Regan Democrat phenomenon, there was no chance the GOP was going anywhere majority wise.

    And it is about socialist leaning or redistributive programs often being resented by something deep in this country's culture. I believe that it is still there, not changed, same as it always was. Look at why immigrants come to this country for some proof. They almost all say they come to work and for the opportunity to "get rich," not for socialist protections. And often look down on people who expect something without "working hard"  or something for nothing. A lot of Obama's speeches have strongly stressed that pro-capitalist meme (even to the point of opining that it is one of the main things that is special about the U.S.) and I believe that it was a significant factor in his getting elected as the first black president. Without that factor, I really don't see how he could have garnered a majority.

    Suffice it to say I don't see this country turning whole hog Sweden for the foreseeable future. The popularity of the "we are the 99%" meme was about fairness of opportunity, not redistribution;  using 99%, and not something like 75%, was key to its popularity. And doing the opposite, trying to divide out the upper middle class into an "us vs. them" thing, hurt Romney.


    I would say we're more or less talking about the same people.

    My take is slightly different (at the risk of incurring the wrath of Quinn or PP). I think the RDs, or the people who became RDs, got turned off by the left's apparent disregard for, and even denigration of, traditional values, e.g., family, respect for the law, etc., that were the warp and woof of their lives. The working class who had always been solidly Democratic couldn't see themselves next to the likes of Abby Hoffman. This, I believe, is EJ Dionne's thesis.

    The fringe right was worried about socialism, but not the people who had actually benefited from socialistic policies. The folks who would become RDs LIKED SS and Medicare, and actually still do. They didn't like being forced onto the front lines of social change policies, e.g., bussing, while (in their view) the policymakers were safe in their elite enclaves. They saw the very top on the left side conspiring with the bottom against them in the middle which, actually, is a theme that goes all the way back to Revolutionary War times.

    The working class was much more tolerant, even supportive, of redistribution --which wasn't called that back then other than by the fringe--as long as the economy was good and they weren't being squeezed financially. But as soon as their income started stagnating, they were easy prey for the right wing demagogues who directed the working class's anxieties toward the lower classes--"the folks who expected a handout and didn't want to work"--as well as the "liberal elites" with whom they had formerly been bonded, e.g., FDR, Kennedy, Truman.

    If they were getting squeezed, then everyone had to get squeezed, and it was easy to characterize people on welfare as not wanting to work and always having their hands out for free stuff. Unnoticed by the RDs were the wealthy folks doing the squeezing, who were pushing this meme.

    I would argue that the term "redistribution" is tendentious and not descriptive. It assumes that what you're doing is stealing from Peter what is rightfully Peter's and just giving it away to Paul. But if you believe that Peter only has what he has in part because of Paul's contribution to the whole economy, then you don't use that term except as a short-cut descriptor.

    At one time, this notion of everyone being in it together was widespread, even, or maybe particularly, among the working class. Movement conservatism has turned it into a kind of crypto socialist notion. Yes, this fear of "socialism" has always been a part of our culture, but the people who became RDs didn't always think that way.

    Whether we'll ever become Sweden...well, Sweden isn't Sweden any longer from what I hear...though it's still far more Sweden-like than we are...is a question IF you put it that way. Once a lot of the tendentious spin is stripped away, people LIKE the protections. Including immigrants. No one ever accused Asians of not being hard-working, and they were solidly in the Socialist In Chief's corner, even the second time around. We should be a land of opportunity and protections. I think that's what most ordinary people think.

    You have to examine the whole idea of "getting something for nothing." It puts a negative and, IMO, inaccurate spin on our protections. We get SS, Medicare, Medicaid and unemployment benefits not because we're layabouts looking for a handout, but because of what we've worked for and paid in. MM described it well somewhere on this thread. Dasani and her folks may not have paid in much (though Supreme was a barber for some period of time), but in our saner moments, we know that it is bad for everyone if we have one group of people rotting in the bottom of the barrel. You don't even have to invoke morality to make this case, just self interest.

    All of our welfare programs have been characterized as a means of evening out the playing field. Giving everyone an even chance. But evening out requires a certain amount of "redistribution" and everyone knows that. Where does scholarship money come from? Where does SNAP money and food come from? Where does early education funds come from? Where do public shelters like Dasani's come from? They come from the people who have the money to pay for them, either through charity or through taxes.


    Or we could expect competence and reward excellence in government employment, and fire the incompetent, how about trying that?

    We still got a lot of problems with machine politics influencing a lot of who gets to do what jobs in NYC, ya know.

    I found the story of the baby with the rotten crib turning blue and dying and a whole bunch of good cribs appearing like magic in the shelter the next day interesting in this regard.


    I agree.

    Not to get too far into the weeds, but I think a public institution faces decision-making challenges that don't exist in the private sector.

    In the private sector, you can fire bad performers without much to do (generally). And you're also more or less unencumbered in your hiring.

    But the public sphere is, I think, necessarily weighed down with lots of rules and with broad mandates and goals (compared with, say, selling X more computers this year).

    This may be in the nature of the beast. The rules arise, in general, I'd argue, from a need to be fair to everyone and to serve the needs of everyone. (No snickering.) And meet all kinds of public demands, all kinds of goals, that diffuse its energy and slow its momentum in any one direction.

    Think of how often we've tried to reform education...

    Everyone necessarily has a say and an ax to grind because it's their government, and they are a many-headed monster.

    I think there's a quote from FDR about reforming the Navy being like punching a pillow. You punch and punch, and the damn thing doesn't move.

    There's also the issue of elected government having a lack of continuity. The mayor has, what?, eight years, and then a new person comes in. Career workers stay for decades, but every 8 years you have someone else who wants to put his or her mark on the city. So programs that might have worked get dropped; new ones get picked up; there's a huge lag as all the old programs are abandoned and people have to get up to speed on the new ones. And of course the corruption you speak of.

    And then someone new comes in!

    But we agree on expecting and rewarding.

     


    Or we could expect competence and reward excellence in government employment, and fire the incompetent, how about trying that?

    Not to disagree with this, because I don't, but it's not as if there is a throng of competent, motivated, and highly skilled people lining up to do these jobs.

    At least not in my experience.

    When I was a CASA worker in DC, all the social workers were way underpaid and way overworked and the conditions were pretty bad. It was grueling work. I read today that a social worker in "family service" gets about 41,000 a year. But even if they make 71,000, there are MANY easier ways to make that money in D.C.

    Mostly the SWs had "plug and play" solutions to various problems, i.e., programs they could tap into or try to tap into to get their clients what the social worker and the client felt the client needed. But it wasn't counseling in any real sense.

    Each CASA volunteer had only one client because they found that when a social worker had 25-50 families in her caseload, kids slipped through the cracks. So I was assigned one kid, and he was my sole concern. I visited with him, took him places, got to know him, tried to open up opportunities for him based on his desires, wrote extensive reports for the judge and, of course, dealt with his mother whose drug addiction, promiscuity, petty criminality lay at the root of many of his problems but whom he loved with every fiber of his being and would not leave.

    That was one kid and one adult volunteer.

    Eventually, after six years, Mom seemed to make a real turnaround and seemed to take responsibility for her situation, agreed to go into counseling, and so on. But maybe she was just shining us on, learned that that was the way to get the judge off her back and get her kid back to clean the house for her. I had to leave the program, so I don't know. It felt very genuine, but I don't know.


    infantilizing of the poor

    Yup.

    Myself, I'd certainly have a hard time not punching the inspector of the microwave story in the nose even if kids were watching.

    It even empowers school workers to order psychological evaluations and then to coerce parents into going along with the recommended treatment whether they agree or not.  Nasty, nasty stuff.

    Yes that kind of think irks me too. Nasty stuff Soviet style.


    Also on

    where people were supposed to be treated as "clients"

    Nothing says better how that has changed than the story of the janitor I quoted upthread.

    I sooo want to see that guy fired. And I want someone like Dasani's mom in that job.


    Some of the conditions of the Auburn could only be improved by The Government..

    But not all

    Picking up a dead mouse doesn't require an act of Congress, the City Council or Mike Bloomberg .Supreme and Chanel could do it.And deal with quite  a few of the other conditions that cry out to be fixed..

    Instead the Auburn is an  example of the "Tragedy of the Commons"In Macy's Window.

     Deficits that cry out to be remedied. Idle people who could do that.

    But don't.  

    "The fault is not in our stars but .."........ 

     

     

    What is "The Tragedy of the Commons" in Macy's window?


    The tragedy of the commons

    The  belief that when a resource is held in common it  will inevitably deteriorate as did Middle Ages pastures held that way.