The Bishop and the Butterfly: Murder, Politics, and the End of the Jazz Age

    Dem Debate Tonight (Open Thread for Reactions)

    By LisB on Sat, 11/14/2015 - 11:05pm |

    O'Malley did a good job of pushing at the front runners, now and then.  And he had some smart little soundbites, here and there.

    But Clinton and Sanders ran 41 to 40 percent interest all night, in CBS polling.

    About what I expected.

    What I walked away with, tonight, is that Clinton is great, but Sanders is doing almost as good in the polls and opinions.  What I walked away with, tonight, is that people ARE taking Bernie Sanders seriously....including Hillary.

    Thoughts?

    Comments

    Josh has his input, too, of course. But my take away is slightly different.

    Josh is looking at what us Dems who are already committed are feeling.  I'm looking at what other people are feeling.  Shouldn't we all?


    by LisB on Sat, 11/14/2015 - 11:43pm

    I did watch it but have not looked at the polling.  I thought they did well.  I wonder how many actually watched it since it was on Network TV?  

     


    by trkingmomoe on Sun, 11/15/2015 - 12:23am

    I thought the questioning was tough but mostly fair.  I thought they all did well, with O'Malley the biggest surprise.  He came off a bit actorish at first but soon found his footing when he was talking about Baltimore and Maryland.  And his call-out of Trump was perfect and could only come from the candidate who knows he has nothing to lose by doing it.

    Bernie was Bernie and did very well.  Someone said last night that it was clear Bernie's camp told him he had to go after Hillary but his heart just isn't in it.  He'd go on the attack and then almost apologize.  He's really a dear figure, even with his righteous bombast.  And, of course, his message is pure populist and just what we need, so sticking with his message can't ever hurt him.  He wavered a few times over issues he didn't want to talk about, but overall he didn't hurt himself at all.

    Hillary still has to work on her script about Wall Street.  Even those of us who are on her side are left with questions about what it all means.  But, given the debate came only a day after the Paris attacks, Hillary's foreign policy chops shone like a beacon.  She knows the Middle East, their tribes, their culture, their history, far better than either Sanders or O'Malley, and, more importantly, far better than any GOP candidate.  I didn't hear a hawk last night, I heard someone steeped in the reality of the situation, understanding that terrorists know no borders, knowing the fight against them will have to be international, including us, but it's not our fight to win.

    When the Dems debate, they're pros.  When the GOP debates, they're amateurs.  That seems to be clearer with every debate.  The moderators asked tough questions and nobody whined.  Another plus for our side.


    by Ramona on Sun, 11/15/2015 - 8:13am

    When the Dems debate, they're pros.

    It's just so evident.  It's possible, even, that Obama's upset of Clinton 8 years ago upped everyone's game while 8 years of victories limited to House races and governorships has driven the other side a little nutty.

    There's no doubt in my mind that losing to Obama and then working for him has made Clinton a much better politician and potential president.


    by Michael Maiello on Sun, 11/15/2015 - 9:00am

    The nuts control most of the state legislators. It's still not a given that Clinton beats Trump or Carson or other fanatic. McCain/Palin lost by only 7% and she was a whack job. Romney/Ryan lost by 3.9%. Things have gotten crazier since. Hillary better have her shit together - there's a lot of institutional crazy with a billion dollars behind it ready to pull that R- lever, and she'll need to make sure blacks and Hispanics get out to vote in large numbers for the general election. If the anti-Hillary Democrats pull a PUMA in large enough numbers, we could end up with the GOP's finest.


    by PeraclesPlease on Sun, 11/15/2015 - 11:06am

    My favorite line of the night was when Bernie said he is not as much of a socialist as Eisenhower.  Loved it!!!!

    That said, I REALLY liked that Hillary defended President Obama more than once; she said he doesn't get enough credit, and that is something we have heard too little of from Democrats running for office.  I am hoping others will take the hint. 


    by CVille Dem on Sun, 11/15/2015 - 9:57am

    That comment really stood out and O'Malley's comment on carnival barker Trump also is being remembered. There is always a line or two that sticks in a debate. 

    Clinton does have problem with being close to Wall Street. When she tried to shift the focus from that to 9/11, social media jumped on that like their pants was on fire. It was " What does 9/11 have to do with the question?"   I don't know what she can do about it? 


    by trkingmomoe on Sun, 11/15/2015 - 8:26pm

    I wish she'd just state the obvious. The Koch brothers are putting nearly a billion dollars into the election as are many others. Democrats need to take the money where they can get it. We don't have to like it but we can't play by a different set of rules than the republicans. Until Citizens United is changed there's only one set of rules. Democrats need to get real and acknowledge that money matters.


    by ocean-kat on Sun, 11/15/2015 - 9:58pm

    Her campaign has spent money on focus groups and in house polling and know that if she would say something like that, she would not get the support she needs in the general from all the Sanders supporters.  There would be enough that would hold it really against her to the point they would not vote for her. That would put her at risk in the general. 


    by trkingmomoe on Mon, 11/16/2015 - 5:03am

    O'Malley hit hard against Clinton - he had to, then and now, if he wants his name remembered. Did it matter? No. He wants VP or a cabinet position; the first being impossible and the latter only likely in a spot with little responsibility.

    Sanders stayed in his zone and, as he often does, refused to deviate no matter the issue. Global terrorism is all about inequality and billionaires. He hasn't decided what the tax rate will be for an undecided income level, but it won't be an ancient Republican's (oddly, also Trump's recent call-out) 90%. Ha!

    Clinton completely blew her assumed advantage - her opponents were better than she expected, which put her on defense. 9/11? No matter how much it might make weedy sense it's just not cool.

    It's incredibly sad that what happened in Paris happened. Our political candidates are better equipped to play games with money, polls and supporters than to stop and think about what it means to be president.

    I dunno. But in a world that changes in more dangerous ways every single day, including domestic challenges that require not only purpose but power, I'm with Hillary Clinton.


    by barefooted on Mon, 11/16/2015 - 1:56am

    "it's just not cool" - and thus a big problem with our debates and system. Techno parties are (or were) cool - but have little to do with real-world politics. The "cool" is also "anti-cool", as Iowa reminds us every 4 years with their goddamn penis-looking corndogs (these people are anti-gay/anti-pornography born-again Christians?) and county fairs. As Cory Doctorow explains:

    Next time President Bush tells you he's going to Crawford to be with "real Americans," remind him that there are more World of Warcraft players in the USA than there are farmers (though of course the two aren't mutually exclusive).

    There are four times as many Americans living in urban than rural areas. There are four times as many people sucking back coffee in New York city alone than make a living farming. .... But when one of these "What does America think about culture" pieces comes on, do I ever see a mid-30's software engineer onscreen bitching about having to download BitTorrents of "The IT Crowd"? Fuck and no.

    Four million people in the US play World of Warcraft. And yet, do I ever hear:

    ANDERSON: We stopped by the gates of Ogrimmar in Durotar, on the east coast of Kalimdor, where one local told us Hollywood just can't relate to the level-grinding life.


    by PeraclesPlease on Mon, 11/16/2015 - 2:28am

    All that because I said her 9/11 remarks weren't "cool"? Perhaps you'd prefer another word. I won't argue that, but I will argue that the statement didn't help her case. Agree or not, she has an issue here. I don't personally think it's do-or-die in the grand scheme of things, but it's going to come up in the general.


    by barefooted on Mon, 11/16/2015 - 3:22am

    I was more just noting that our policies are often less policies than "cool" tags that punch a button.

    Seems people are touchy today.


    by PeraclesPlease on Mon, 11/16/2015 - 4:36am

    I play WOW and my alt guild is Nihilism. It was kinda upsetting when Hillary called me out in the debate, "We have to confront Nihilism." So I must have kicked her ass in some pvp encounter but it's petty to hold a grudge. Have to say, I reconsidering my vote.


    by ocean-kat on Mon, 11/16/2015 - 12:57pm

    I hate it how quickly they jump to violence. It's not like Nihilism ever hurt anyone, yet they can't let gamers have their own safe space. Next thing they'll take away our virtual weapons, turn it into World of Arts & Crafts or something

    by PeraclesPlease on Mon, 11/16/2015 - 2:22pm

    Good exchange. I have nothing of substance to add  so I'll just remark the  adult tone made me proud to be associated with Dagblog. Sounds condescending but so be it.


    by Flavius on Mon, 11/16/2015 - 10:30am