MURDER, POLITICS, AND THE END OF THE JAZZ AGE
by Michael Wolraich
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The Left Case Against Supporting Joe Biden in the General Election
By A Guy Called LULU on Mon, 08/31/2020 - 5:04pm |Sanders says hold your nose and vote for Biden. This guy disagrees
URL:
https://benjaminstudebaker.com/2020/08/31/the-left-case-against-supporting-joe-biden-in-the-general-election/
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Comments
There are some points made in this essay I would disagree with, but not many. I believe he is accurate about the feelings of a significant number of potential voters.
by A Guy Called LULU on Mon, 08/31/2020 - 5:06pm
You see no difference between Biden and Trump?
by rmrd0000 on Mon, 08/31/2020 - 6:45pm
That question, in relation to the article and what I have said about it, reduces the entire subject to such simplistic terms that it could only be asked seriously by a seriously simple minded person.
by A Guy Called LULU on Mon, 08/31/2020 - 8:07pm
I haven't been following your discussions in detail.
by rmrd0000 on Mon, 08/31/2020 - 8:12pm
there is no link, it didn't take, you have to edit it in if you want anyone to read it
by artappraiser on Mon, 08/31/2020 - 5:14pm
Thanks.
by A Guy Called LULU on Mon, 08/31/2020 - 5:24pm
it's an absurd argument like he just got out from under a rock in 2018, ignoring elephant in room. The left he is speaking for doesn't seem to give a shit that because of continued federal anti-science mismanagement of the pandemic, more people will die here than in most third world countries and certainly more than any imperialist ventures of the U.S. allover the world as far as American deaths are concerned. Let Trump win and hope ya don't die tomorrow is the message.Oh and do you want a roof over your head and a little something on the table to eat during the coming depression, well sorry Donald and Mitch can't help you. Donald will be reliably isolationist on use of troops though (might lob a missile or two once in a while but that's it) that should keep ya happy while you're starving and gasping for breath people begging for quarters all around in any city, meanwhile the upper middle class all hunkered in exurbs with their guns and walls protecting them from the city hordes where there are no taxpayers left but lots of federal goons, Obamacare removed, health care system has collapsed but ya know, you still have those bootstraps... let more Americans die as punishment for all their foreign policy sins as in the past, is that the plan here?
by artappraiser on Mon, 08/31/2020 - 6:23pm
I don't know Studebaker's age, but I would say Sanders, unlike Studebaker, is not a punk that feels lucky:
Projected coronavirus deaths in US could surpass those of World War II
A comparison of information from the Department of Veterans Affairs and projections on COVID-19 deaths shows the U.S. set to reach a grim record by December.
by artappraiser on Mon, 08/31/2020 - 6:35pm
It is not an absurd argument at all, IMO. I believe it accurately outlines why a great many people are getting fed up and see their grievances as reason not to vote for Biden. Where I part ways with Studebaker is that I believe that we cannot take a chance on Trump even if the same-o same-o is our only alternative. As I have said here several times, I am scared enough of Trump and I despise him so much that I will vote for Biden too.
by A Guy Called LULU on Mon, 08/31/2020 - 8:18pm
Thanks for clarifying your position.
I suspect that there will be many anti-Trump votes.
by rmrd0000 on Mon, 08/31/2020 - 8:38pm
The article starts with this claim:
" Trump, for all his faults, poses no existential threat to the republic. "
Maybe that claim deserves more support than declaring it as a fact. The concerns along those lines are why there is such a broad coalition of people who oppose Trump.
When I play Monopoly, I don't notice the fire burning all the houses in the neighborhood.
by moat on Mon, 08/31/2020 - 6:38pm
also he's like Nero fiddling about foreign policy great game as if we're not in dystopia already in this country. News flash: American tourists are not welcome in most other countries and there's little interest for others to be a tourist here. Again, our heath care system is ready to collapse, throw in travel industry is decimated, there are no restaurants, the few kids in school are going to be withdrawn shortly, rinse and repeat.. There's a hugely traumatized generation coming up who won't even know how to socialize. And Joe Biden is going to worry about neo-liberal overseas adventures and this is a major concern of some lefties? All the never Biden type lefties I've seen complain lately are not worrying about foreign policy for chrissake, excepting global warming policy, at least they have the sense to be worrying about Biden not having solutions for the problems of the very soil they stand on.
by artappraiser on Mon, 08/31/2020 - 6:58pm
I don't look at it as a narrative driven by "lefties." I agree with the approach that questions the containment framework that so much language of security is based upon. But not because we can narrow down who is responsible like it was a RICO investigation. If it is true that military adventures are tied to corrupt ends, that won't be stopped by simply banning military adventures. If only life was that easy.
From another perspective, those who have worked on decreasing the level of influence our system has had upon other people is being actively pursued by other people. We don't need to do much in that regard if that is the desired result.
by moat on Mon, 08/31/2020 - 7:23pm
Maybe that claim deserves more support than declaring it as a fact.
In the second half of the article the author uses several paragraphs to support the claim. You may disagree with the arguments but he does much more than just declare it.
by ocean-kat on Mon, 08/31/2020 - 7:45pm
I don't know.
There is this:
"Trump hasn’t tried to hold a sham election–he’s tried to delay one that’s free and fair, because he knows that if he loses he won’t be able to ignore the result."
Is that really an argument supporting a position or just another way to assume what cannot be proved? I don't share the confidence the author is experiencing.
by moat on Mon, 08/31/2020 - 7:56pm
I do not see the quoted statement as an argument supporting a position but rather a position which he supports with arguments. But yes, this is an opinion piece and even many well supported opinions cannot be proven.
by A Guy Called LULU on Mon, 08/31/2020 - 8:04pm
One can neither prove or disprove that another four years of Trump is an existential threat to democracy. One can only make arguments to support and defend one's position. The author has made what he thinks are good arguments that Trump is not. Some I agree with, some I don't. In general I don't think Trump is an existential threat to democracy. Mainly because he doesn't have sufficient support of the other institutions of government, the military, the FBI and CIA etc. This is one of the arguments the author made that I agree with
You can disagree with the arguments. Just don't claim the author hasn't made a good faith attempt to support his claim.
What the author doesn't support with good arguments is the idea that Trump may make irreparable changes to the law and society. For me that is the more important issue. For example the author down plays the important of the courts. Voting rights and abortion rights are being eroded and hang by a thread. There already is 5 votes to overturn Roe. Roberts is the fifth vote and only supports precedent because he's the chief justice. One more Trump justice and Roe is gone I think. And not just with 5 votes, Roberts will join the majority if there are 5 justices voting to over turn precedent
What he does very well is lay out the effects and problems with electing centrist or center right democrats. This has imo consistently moved the republicans, the democrats, and the whole government to the right. The republicans embrace their far right and play hard ball. The democrats compromise and this creates a new center. Each time a bit further right. As I pointed out in an earlier discussion, the democratic establishment and Biden consider Third Way to be a center left organization. The democratic establishment position is now that the center is to the right of Third Way. That will affect what Biden fights for and what he'll consider an acceptable centrist compromise. That's a big problem for me when I consider Third Way to be a center right organization
by ocean-kat on Mon, 08/31/2020 - 8:37pm
I take your point about decisions and developments that move the country to the right.
I am not clear about how that relates to positions like this article.
by moat on Mon, 08/31/2020 - 8:52pm
Yes, the irreparable changes are the most important matters right now.
Studebaker frames the question correctly in regards to the danger of the moment. How much should the need to remove a national emergency be weighed against the compromises that requires? His argument suggests that our alarm at the damage is overwrought when compared to the dangers of the political developments he describes. I don't share is confidence that is the case.
By emergency, I don't mean to suggest that Trump could get away with a junta. The need to get him out of the office is existential for the immediate population. With so much of the country willing to vote for him, only a united effort will move him out.
by moat on Tue, 09/01/2020 - 12:01pm